Inquisitorial Authority

[Dust01]

Hi again,

 

Got a fluffy question for anyone with a high-level knowledge of the Inquisition:

 

Many sources mention that the Inquisitor's (and especially the Inq. Lord's) authority is virtually unlimited, and the codexes seem to bear that out. However, I thought I read somewhere that Space Marine chapters (outside of the Grey Knights) cannot be called upon with impunity, i.e. they have the authority to refuse to help an inquisitor if they feel they are needed elsewhere.

 

So what's the truth here?

[Gaz1858]

Yes Astartes do not have to obey Inquisitors. The will petition a chapter for assistance and then the leader of that Astartes section will decide whether to assist or not.

 

Some chapters will assist more frequently than others.

[Eddie Orlock]

What you're dealing with is multiple authors, revisionist fluff, 'nominal' authority, and 'real-politik'. Depending on who's writing Inquisitors may have the ability to so conscript marine forces and have the ability to crush any who refuse as traitors. Alternatively they present the viewpoint that not all Inquisitors are so empowered, and that while they may be able to try to declare a chapter excomunicated, there is the very real question of who will listen and will any other Imperial forces bother prosecuting this action, or has the Inquisitor just shamed himself.

 

This is part of why histories, traditions, and reputations are so very important to the astartes. Heroic renown can provide a chapter master with a little insulation against the petty schemes of bickering Inquisitorial Agents that might squander the strength of his men on fools errands and lost causes. Say no enough times though and such political capital will corrode until some pesky Inquisitors charge sticks and their brothers from other chapters hunt them down. Dark Angels walk a fine line here, and with their headstrongness, so do Space Wolves, fortunatly for them, these chapters have histories from when the Emperor walked among men. Later foundings aren't so fortunate.

[jester_prince]

I think i read somewhere that inquisitors spend lifetimes developing good relations with chapters so they may call upon chapters more freely, and certain chapters will only respond to a inquisitor they trust. It might have been in a death watch thread or something or DH codex i cant remember. So yeah inquisitors cannot demand a chapter to answer its call only request, though it probably depends on the rank and reputation of the inquisitor. Marines are probably less likley to lend a hand to a inquisitor notorius for executing entire chapters of space marines on a hunch.

[Tauren]

Space Marine Chapters tend to be stand-alone entities within the imperium, acting only upon their chapter master's orders. This includes cooperating with inquisitors or the inquisition. Often times when they don't cooperate it's for a reason and this tends to get investigated after the fact.

 

On the other hand inquisitors tend to work closely with chapters. In general most "smart" inquisitors tend to make good relations with anyone and everyone while at the same time questioning their alliance and rooting out chaos. Everyone is a tool and everyone is an enemy.

[number6]

Technically speaking, by the letter of Imperial law, The Inquisition -- and by extension, Inquisitors -- have unlimited ability to requisition any resources they see fit to accomplish their tasks. This includes commanding Space Marine chapters if that's what they feel is necessary.

 

But, as everyone else so far has pointed out, "realpolitik" is a factor in whether this is "actually" going to be possible for any given Inquisitor and Astartes chapter. Some Inquisitors will be more likely to get what they want while others will struggle. Some Astartes chapters will be more likely to lend at least some form of aid while others will not.

 

And so it goes....

[Peredyne]

While the inquisitors technically have unlimited authority, they have to play nice with the astartes to a certain extent. Remember that a chapter master or captain can call upon forces to the same degree as an inquisitor lord, including the ability to call down exterminatus if need be. The Soul Drinkers are a prime example of a chapter that not only told an inquisitor to go stuff himself, but also wiped out the fleet that was with him.

[Mal]

a single inquisitor cannot execute ANY marines, they can either petition for the =][= high command to declare them excommunatis, or hand said marine over to their own chapter for punishment, they have no authority over space marines, even grey knights are not subordinate to =][=, they choose to work with them, but at all times work at not being seen to serve, so much as assasist.

[LPetersson]

However, I thought I read somewhere that Space Marine chapters (outside of the Grey Knights) cannot be called upon with impunity, i.e. they have the authority to refuse to help an inquisitor if they feel they are needed elsewhere.

So what's the truth here?

 

I thinkit's put fairly well here: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Inquisition

 

An Inquisitor can command the Astartes to help, but if he's clever he respectfully requests...

 

And then of course there is the indomitable Logan Grimnar who loathes the Inquisition and woe betide the =][= who decides to visit Fenris...

[Tauren]

Technically the Grey Knights are the militant arm of the inquisition... They don't "choose to serve" the inquisition, THEY ARE THE INQUISITION. They are the guys that come in hard and bore out the daemonic taint with fire and purity.

[Wrath]

Those who say that Inquisitors can technically command any resources available to the Imperium are correct. They are also correct when they say that "technically" does not mean much of anything when you factor in the actual power of space marine chapter masters and the like. However, if an Inquisitor has sufficient backing (whether from other SM chapters, a sufficiently large IG or Imperial Navy force, his own private army of Stormtroopers, or simply enough street cred with the SM in question) then he can make his orders stick. Even so, for the sake of future operations it is generally better for Inquisitors to couch their orders in the form of requests, even if both sides know it is really an order. And of course those Inquisitors who lack sufficient backing are making a fundamental mistake when they attempt to order somebody they know won't obey (it undermines not only their own authority but also that of all of their colleagues when their commands are ignored or worse, deliberately interfered with).

 

The lack of team spirit displayed by many SM chapters probably plays a large part in the reason behind private armies among the Inquisitors, I imagine. If you can get elite normal humans with better gear than everyone short of the SM, and you can do it without the risk to your reputation or your person inherent to interactions with SM, then why not? And if something goes wrong, not only are your troops more expendible than SM, but they are presumably more loyal to you personally, too. All in all, except against certain specific enemies (fortified, entrenched, terribly well equipped baddies who require power armored shock troops to break), stormtroopers are probably nearly as good as SM (and likely far more numerous too).

 

Inquisitor Lord Photios relies entirely on his own Athanatoi (a private Stormtrooper army) with a small detatchment of Gray Knights for his own operations for exactly the reasons I list above. He tries to avoid having to deal with regular SM if he can, because they really aren't worth the trouble except under very limited conditions.

[Eddie Orlock]

... they can either petition for the =][= high command to declare them excommunatis, ... they have no authority over space marines, ...

What have you been reading? Inquisitorial High Command, let's not be foolish, the Inquisition is not nearly as monolithic as that might suggest. The representative on Terra is just that, a representative, not a ranking lord. There is no formal higharchy, just various levels of respect, from an official political perspective, an Inquisitor is an Inquisitor is an Inquisitor, as long as they're no excomunicate, they're all the same, and all nominally at least the peer of any chapter master.

 

As I fluff the Storm Angels, they have a few Ordo Xenos agents they're on exceptionally good terms with, to the point that should they desire to snub another inquisitors request their master will request that one of these fellows petitions for their intervention elsewhere rendering them convieniently unavailable to the fool who would waste their time. Why risk the brothers against cultists on some backwater when there are Hrud that need a good purging.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Wrath Posted Today, 05:56 PM

Those who say that Inquisitors can technically command any resources available to the Imperium are correct. They are also correct when they say that "technically" does not mean much of anything when you factor in the actual power of space marine chapter masters and the like. However, if an Inquisitor has sufficient backing (whether from other SM chapters, a sufficiently large IG or Imperial Navy force, his own private army of Stormtroopers, or simply enough street cred with the SM in question) then he can make his orders stick

 

That won't always work, it depends on whether the orders are (to the Chapter Master) beneficial to the Imperium as a whole. It doesn't matter how large your private army is, if you roll up at The Fang and try to requisition a suit of Terminator Armour for personal use you will always recieve the middle finger and a slammed door.

 

The problem comes from 1) the power given to the Inquisition to police the other Imperial institutions and 2) the autonomy granted to the SMs by the Emperor. It is possible to work around this, the SMs were split into Chapters so they could be self-policing, a loyalist Chapter will willing join forces with an Inquisitor to purge a corrupt Chapter (as in the Badab War), you just need a lot of evidence to declare an SM chapter excommunicate.

[Melissia]

Of course, you should note that if they do not obey the Inquisition, things might just happen. Bad things. A good portion of the chapter becoming lost in the warp due to a failed Gellar Field, or they repeatedly find themselves with incorrect information and get massacred time and again, or perhaps even just a paperwork problem that prevents reinforcements from arriving and supplies being re-routed from their forgeworld to somewhere else.. Now, they wouldnt' do that to a first founding cfhapter to be sure (a mixture of respect for them and simple political danger), but the Inquisition has and will do this to disobedient Marine chapters as is necessary.

[Dust01]

I would expect the Inquisition would make a bad enemy even for a SM chapter. I can fully imagine some inquisitors being ruthless enough to undermine "loyalist" forces rather than risk personal disgrace because of a failed overt accusation of treachery.

 

Interesting posts, everyone. Good discussion! I guess I've asked all this because I'm putting together some ideas for a story and/or a narrative campaign involving the Inqusition and the Iron Hands chapter (feel free to jump in if you're listening, Bannus :D ). I know they have little love for other aspects of the imperial armed forces particularly the other chapters. They have close ties to the Adeptus Mechanicus, but I read elsewhere on these forums that they have actually come into conflict with the Inquisition. Judging by the previous posts on this topic, the =][= would be loathe to come after a first-founding chapter, but is there any chance that the IH might consent to work with them, i.e. a terrible emergency, or is the rift between the two institutions too strained?

[Melissia]

I don't see why they wouldn't if it was in their best interests to do so.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Dust01 Posted Today, 08:45 PM

I would expect the Inquisition would make a bad enemy even for a SM chapter. I can fully imagine some inquisitors being ruthless enough to undermine "loyalist" forces rather than risk personal disgrace because of a failed overt accusation of treachery.

 

Sure, thats Ok. But since being a SM Chapter grants you the right to a full and thorough investigation (whether they know it or not) by a cell of Inquisitors, in practice the Inquisition will only undermine/get rid of SM Chapters officially or not at all. One does not go up against an SM Chapter lightly. The Inquisition does make a bad enemy for an SM Chapter, but the danger in undermining one SM chapter is that the others will band together to protect their independence. You need evidence that can be presented to another SM Chapter, who will then join you in the process of 'cleaning house'. Going against Chapters without evidence will lead to the same reaction as that of the Lamenters & Co. in siding with the Astral Claws in the Badab War.

[Captain Hajime]

I think No Group in 40k Shows the good and the bad of human Nature than the Inquisition. Nothing illstrats that clearer than the relationship that it has with Space Marines.

[Tauren]

Ya see here's the problem with anyone but space marines telling an inquisitor to screw off... usually...

 

"I need you to scratch my back..."

"!@#% you..."

"Okay..."

 

*gunshot*

 

"Now... I need you to scratch my back..."

"HOLY @!$^ YOU SHOT MY COMMAND OFFICER..."

"My back still itches...?"

"Yessir on the double!"

 

 

As for space marines it's more of a "I scratched your back that one time... your turn... please..."

[Melissia]

more like "I scratched your back, now scratch mine-- and I'll be sure to ensure that the information you get in future missions is accurate."

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Tauren Posted Today, 04:56 AM

Ya see here's the problem with anyone but space marines telling an inquisitor to screw off... usually...

 

"I need you to scratch my back..."

"!@#% you..."

"Okay..."

 

*gunshot*

 

"Now... I need you to scratch my back..."

"HOLY @!$^ YOU SHOT MY COMMAND OFFICER..."

"My back still itches...?"

"Yessir on the double!"

 

 

As for space marines it's more of a "I scratched your back that one time... your turn... please..."

 

SMs are quite capable of telling the Inquisition to back off, they just need a good and obvious reason (easy to find, the're always a Black Crusade or Waaagh going on somewhere). An Inquisitor who summarily executes a random Marine for not obeying orders is likely to be excomunnicated in short order. Your basic newly-promoted Inquisitor does not have as much influence as a Space Marine Chapter Master, despite technically having more written authority.

[Elenaria]

It is always a delicate dance, with special risks for the Astartes in regards to overly suspicious Inquisitors.

As said before, especially 1st founding chapters ought to have a lot more leeway - they are, if nothing else, far more famed. Also... the Adeptus Astartes, being defenders of humanity and all of that stuff, well, one doesn't lightly go and declare them hereticus, even if they didn't want to join you on your [insertsomethinghere]hunting-crusade (though it is in the chapter's interest to give, as stated above, a good reason for it).

 

But apart from that, I imagine that =I= enjoys near-infinite power without questioning. ...the Titan legions and Battlefleets might be two more tricky objects, but STILL.

[Mal]

Just out of curosity for all of you who think the =][= actually have power over SM chapters.... how do you think DA have survived this long?

 

The simple answer is they refuse to have anything to do with =][= and make sure =][= forces have no pshical proof of the fallen, don't think for a moment that there are not many many =][= lords who 'suspect' bad things of the DA, but there is nothing they can do about it. They cannot demand an investigation without DA choosing to help, after all how do you force your way onboard a space station manned purely by space marines who dont want you there. If they had this mythical power to override SM chapters and make demands then they would have done so.

 

The simple fact of the matter is =][= forces have only as much power of SM chapters as they let them. As as to the GK's being a militant wing of the =][=, you'll find thats the job of the IST, the GK's work along side the =][= forces, they do NOT work for them.

 

Now as to my commend about the high lords of the =][=, did I mention terra at all in that statement? No I didn't think so, you'll find a lone =][= who chooses to go against a SM chapter without a damned good reason will be hung out to dry by his fellows if he doesn;t have the backing of the rest of the =][=, hence the petition, no single =][= can choose to declare an excommunitas of a SM chapter, they need approval and PROOF.

Against guard they will rarely be turned down, but if the SM chapters decide the =][= is throwing their weight around... remember they were NOT formed by the emperor, unlike the SM chapters, I do not doubt that the space marines could easily destroy the =][=.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Mal Posted Today, 11:48 AM

remember they were NOT formed by the emperor, unlike the SM chapters, I do not doubt that the space marines could easily destroy the =][=.

 

The Emperor did have a hand in setting up the original Inquisition, its one of the last orders he gave before being put in the Golden Throne.

 

The authority problem is really a conflict of Emperor-given authority. The same problem occurs with the AdMech, and it all works out like this:

 

1) The Inquisition in their original mandate have authority to police all Imperial bodies and institutions.

 

2) The Space Marines were granted autonomy from any authority but the Emperor's direct command at the outset of the Geat Crusade.

 

3) The AdMech have the right to autonomy as specified in the Treaty of Mars, as long as they fulfil their treaty obligations.

 

So in the case of The Inquisition vs either the SM Chapters or the AdMech, its a case of unstoppable force meets immovable object. Things work by established protocol only, not by the (unenforceable) different treaties and existing mandates. The Inquisition have power of the SMs and the AdMech, but the AdMech and SMs also have autonomy. Therefore some sort of compromise has to be established, otherwise the system is unworkable and any attempt to enforce it could destabilise the Imperium as a whole (SMs band together to protect autonomy, AdMech pulls out of Imperium etc.).

[Doomaflatchi]

With regards to the Grey Knights being/not being part of the Inquisition proper, please consider that several Grey Knight models (the Terminator Brother-Captain, for instance) have the stylized "I" of the Inquisition featured as a major decoration on their armor. This clearly identifies them as being "part" of the Inquisition, in both the letter and spirit of the law, with precedent being set by the Inquisitorial Stormtroopers, who also wear the "I" and answer to no authority except that of the Inquisition. However, I highly suspect that the Grey Knights are allowed a sense of autonomy in their actions similar to what the standard Space Marines receive.

 

This, I think, allows them a very interesting opportunity - as a part of the Inquisition with autonomous authority, would they not be able to exert Inquisitional authority? Granted, the orders of a full Inquisitor would obviously eclipse the desires of the Grey Knights... but this limited form of Inquisitional authority would make a lot of sense when placed within the context of the fluff, as it would easily explain their ability to commandeer large contingents of the Imperial Guard, for instance, without necessarily being accompanied by an Inquisitor.

 

What do you guys think?