Moving cover?

[King_Pash]

Hello fellow marines,

 

I came across a situation a little while back where one of your characters (a Rune Priest I think) is able to cast a phsykic power that grants him cover. Now, the player in question then assaulted with that squad+character and claimed that since I did not charge him my frags had no effect and I would strike as if I had charged into cover with no granades.

 

Is this a common interpretation of the rule (and which power is it btw?) or was this just down to the outdated version of your codex? Or was this guy just rule lawyering to suit his need?

 

Thanks boys, keep some mead for us lot :P

[Decoy]

EDIT: Withdrawn, since I don't know the true nature of the argument.

[The_Betrayed_Spacewolf]

ill help as much as i can atm.

 

your correct it was the rune priest and its our only psyich power called storm caller

 

brb with more info

[The_Betrayed_Spacewolf]

just by looking around the forum its general consensus that the answer is no to swinging at I10 it would go in order as usual. especially since he did the charging and not you.

 

on your other questions it was the rune priest (our only psyker using his only power stormcaller) i think its due actually to the lack of wording in the description

[Ullr Direfang]

first off i would like to ask how long ago was this battle? in 4th ed it worked the way described. but in 5th ed it is different. from how i understand it, if the wolf priest or what ever unit had storm caller caste on it IS charged they count as being in cover unless the attacking unit has frags. if the unit with storm caller on it charges then they fight as normal. i am not 100% sure on this though.

[King_Pash]

This battle was last week but the guy hasn't played many 5th Ed games so it was a fairly relaxed game. I didn't mind at the time as it didn't actually come to attacking against that squad but I was just wondering in case it comes up again in the future.

[Wolf89]

This battle was last week but the guy hasn't played many 5th Ed games so it was a fairly relaxed game. I didn't mind at the time as it didn't actually come to attacking against that squad but I was just wondering in case it comes up again in the future.

 

Well basically here's how things work, there are actually 2 codexes for Space Wolves that are "play-able" some have the older version and some have the new(er). The only "real" changes is to stormcaller and to the true grit rule and that's about it. The changes to stormcaller is simple, the older one (most SW players have/use this one as both are out of print) says you go first when you charge, the second (rarer and not many have this version) says you go first when you receive a charge. However BOTH say "This counts the unit for being in cover for all rules purposes" (that wasn't straight from the dex but I bet it's damn close and best I can do on short notice) which in 5th you'd only get the benefit if the enemy took a difficult terrain test to charge you... since they won't either way, there's no bonus. At least this is how a lot of the topics about this have swayed.

 

Ahem... now that the wall of text has crushed you, I'll try to clear things up... Generally speaking (especially in a friendly game, or some that are transfering from 4th to 5th) they'd just use the rules as normal in their codex, so if they charge they get to strike first, and if you charge them (without frags) he'll go first again, just as they were in cover. At a tournament you'll have those who RAW and it's pretty clear.

[WarPanda]

Wolf89 has it right. I have the codex printed in 2000. Here is what the text says: "The unit counts as being in cover for rule purposes and so will receive the +5 cover save and will strike first in close combat until the end of the following enemy turn. Units that are protected in this way may assault and, if they do so and the enemy are in cover, attacks are resolved in order of initiative." There you go!

 

Keep in mind the "AND" is key there to being able to strike first. :lol: Hope this helps.

[Jonny Wolf]

Ok,

this has befuddled me for a while so I'm going to ask in simple terms:

 

BC's and RP cast storm caller.

 

If the BC's charge an enemy that is not in cover - BC's go first?

 

If the BC's charge an enemy that is in cover - it goes by initiative?

 

If the BC's are charged by an enemy without frags - the BC's go first?

 

If the BC's are charged by an enemy with frags - it goes by initiative?

 

Thanks.

 

Brother Jonny

[Wolf89]

Wolf89 has it right. I have the codex printed in 2000. Here is what the text says: "The unit counts as being in cover for rule purposes and so will receive the +5 cover save and will strike first in close combat until the end of the following enemy turn. Units that are protected in this way may assault and, if they do so and the enemy are in cover, attacks are resolved in order of initiative." There you go!

 

Keep in mind the "AND" is key there to being able to strike first. :devil: Hope this helps.

 

So are you saying the "and" after the "cover for rules purposes" dictates that it's in conjunction and doesn't matter what the BBB says about who strikes first, it's the fact that the "and" is there to show that you will strike first no matter what? (my English isn't the best :lol: )

 

If so then by golly I want my rune priest back...

[KeithGatchalian]

Officially, with Stormcaller, you only go first if charged, according to the second edition SW codex.

 

You can clarify this answer by emailing askyourquestion@games-workshop.com

 

The whole going first thing with Stormcaller has been FAQ'd in the past for it not to work when charging, and the 4th edition rules specifically had lines that said you did not.

[WarPanda]

I was just stating the 2000 SW codex and reading the text literally. I was not aware of any FAQ clarifying this. When did the Second Edition SW codex come out? I have the 2000 SW codex and I thought this was the most updated one. I will email the question to the address you posted.

[Bran Scalphunter]

If Keith means the newer and rarer version (which I have) of the Codex, he is referring to the 2000 version.

 

I think it works like this:

RP casts Stormcaller on BC:

 

BC charge enemy in open. Go by Initiative

 

BC charge enemy in cover. BC roll for Difficult Terrain and then strike in Initiative since BC always have assault grenades.

 

RP casts Stormcaller on BC:

 

BC are charged by enemy w/o assault grenades. Enemy rolls for Difficult Terrain as BC count as being in terrain for rules purposes. BC strike at I10.

 

BC are charged by enemy w/ assault grenades. Enemy rolls for Difficult Terrain as BC count as being in cover. Go by Initiative.

 

However, if we are to use the RAW side which I think I've just defended, the BC would have to roll for Difficult Terrain as long as they are effected by Stormcaller and wish to move.

 

Sorry if I've added extra problems Wolf, I figured I'd add my thoughts to the pot while I'm here.

[Wolf89]

Well by rules they didn't PASS through difficult terrain, the cover only starts at their bases, so I don't see any difficult terrain tests being taken for the assaulting units... so not sure. ;)

[The_Betrayed_Spacewolf]

speaking of I and charging. the powerfist always goes last right? at I 1 is this still correct when charged in cover?

[Wolf89]

speaking of I and charging. the powerfist always goes last right? at I 1 is this still correct when charged in cover?

 

It's correct always no matter what.

[lunchb0x]

what happened with "TG" did I miss a change with it?

[The_Betrayed_Spacewolf]

nope its the same. only counts after the charge.

[King_Pash]

Sorry to bring back a dead topic but it came up again last night. So, let me get this straight. The common interpretation of the Storm Caller power in the 5th Ed and the newest codex (2000?) is that you DO NOT get to strike at I10 when initiating the charge on an enemy, correct?

 

Could someone please clarify as to what the differences between the older codex and 2000 edition? I have access to one but I'd like to know what to look for.

 

Thanks wolves!

[Wena]

This topic has been discussed and argued and re-discussed and re-argued for quite a while now...

 

Roll the dice each game to determine how it works (4+ he gets it). Best way to solve the issue... until it gets a FAQ to end the argument once and for all...

 

Or just give it to him – the RAW of the power is pretty clear actually – he strikes first until end of enemy turn unless assaulting into cover… (I have both editions but only checked the 2000 version cause I didn’t want to dig through closet at 2:35 AM for the other one)

 

Wena

 

P.S. I have never used this power this way personally in over 100 games, not worth the fight… but I should :tu:

[Wolf89]

Or just give it to him – the RAW of the power is pretty clear actually – he strikes first until end of enemy turn unless assaulting into cover… (I have both editions but only checked the 2000 version cause I didn’t want to dig through closet at 2:35 AM for the other one)

 

Actually you're only partially right about RAW. True RAW of stormcaller you'll be using the few lines after that, which says "counts as in cover for rules purposes" this then referring to the BBB you wouldn't get the advantage. Basically the striking first is only when receiving a charge and if the enemy takes a difficult terrain test... :D

[Wena]

See ^_^

[WG Vrox]

Not true, if you look at the old FAQ for 4th, it clearly defines the SC as being you get to strike first unless the unit you are up against is in cover, an it even mentions that if you have frags they do not work against an assult soo. nothing has changed since this FAQ, other than the 2000 codex illusive update. sure its there, but that is not an offical version of the codex or it would be for sell at stores still.

 

come on, the rune priest has hardly any powers other than this, plus a piss poor LD of 9, give it to him. Consider all that a SM librarian brings to the table and you should be fine letting him have this ability.

 

WG vrox.

[King_Pash]

I'm not trying to null a specialist power from your Priest, i'm just trying to judge it's effectiveness so I can find a way to play against it.

 

Plus, correct me if i'm wrong, if you charge into cover your initiative goes to I1 and not (as some have mentioned) the enemies initiative goes to I10.

 

Also, if it's not an official codex why is it printed by GW? I'm confused..

[Wolf89]

Not true, if you look at the old FAQ for 4th, it clearly defines the SC as being you get to strike first unless the unit you are up against is in cover, an it even mentions that if you have frags they do not work against an assult soo. nothing has changed since this FAQ, other than the 2000 codex illusive update. sure its there, but that is not an offical version of the codex or it would be for sell at stores still.

 

come on, the rune priest has hardly any powers other than this, plus a piss poor LD of 9, give it to him. Consider all that a SM librarian brings to the table and you should be fine letting him have this ability.

 

WG vrox.

 

First of all you're bringing up an old FAQ from a previous edition. Second, the "update" is the official version of the codex and there are space wolf players who have the hard copy (Lord Rag being the most notable) also GW themselves have THIS version as their copy for rules purposes and uses them for tournaments and rules decisions.

 

Don't compare us to the SM librarians, they've gone into a league all on their own, Njal was terrible and if/when they bring him back he better be better or I'm done with psychers. :lol:

 

If you really want to argue this Vrox then open up the old thread (it's probably a good 7+ pages back) and read over that whole argument and go from there. :tu: