Negativity toward Sisters of Battle

[Inquisitor Fox]

Rules like this is what keeps WH hard to understand. We, maybe even more than DH, have a lot of finicky rules. Faith, allies, Holy Rage, Celestian hatred, Seraphim Hit & Run, Immolators only if you've got Battle Sisters, the Book, Assassins, Inquisitors, pychic abilities, retinue management, two crazy special characters, etc. Practically every unit or piece of wargear is non-standard.

Ironically you just listed everything I absolutely love about the Inquisition... :P

 

We're just apparently not for the faint of heart.

[Melissia]

We also have things liek this wonderful contradiction:

 

The WH Inquisitors have a special force weapon (along with DH force weapons) which is far more powerful than normal. However, Sisters are immune to its powerful special effect and thus treat it as a power weapon.

[Imperialis_Dominatus]

When I first saw this thread I thought, 'this can only end in tears on the B&C.' But looks like things are going well.

 

I don't feel any negativity towards the Sisters (in fact, I really like them!). I haven't seen any ill will towards them in my gaming area- hell, the only place I've seen Sisters disparaged is... well... here. I own and understand the Witch Hunters Codex, I love their fluff, and I feel great sorrow that awesome stuff like Repentia, Arco-Flagellants, Priests, Penitent Engines, etc. (everything non-power-armored Sisters, and even some of them) are so unfortunately underpowered. I like them.

 

Oh wait. There is one instance in which a player has hated on the Sororitas here. Guess what? He thinks the Exorcist is cheesier than the Falcon. He thinks a tank with a random-firing weapon is cheesy (I play Chaos, and random never translates into good- Possessed, Dreads, etc), whereas a very survivable flying circus is not as cheesy. Want to know the real punchline though?

 

He thinks a shooting weapon is cheesy. And he's a Tau player.

 

I will repeat that.

 

A Tau player in my area thinks that a shooting weapon is cheesy.

 

*aneurysm HO!*

 

:lol: :P -_- :P

[Melissia]

Lol... as a tau player, doesn't he just wipe out the exorcist at long range with railguns? Or does he hate railguns cause they're shooting weapons which are thus overpowered?

[Inquisitor Fox]

Point out the Cyclic Ion Blaster to him.. watch his head implode at his own weapon being cheesy :D

[Utsujin]

If they say the SoB are cheesy, just say well, your army is cheesy just because you play them. I would only resort to that if it got really bad. We're a third tier army after all, and 2 editions out of date. I just hope they don't nerf our faith..

[WAR]

My friend hates the faith points but he also realizes that he will beat me in melee 75% the time and out gun me at long range almost all the time. Another guy in the group calls it cheese all the time but he plays nids so he doesn't count but after my last game with sisters, while he watched, he is nervous since I ran 101 models (foot slogging) in 1850 made him real nervous as I destroyed squads of eldar without mercy with little death for me (lost repentias and seraphim). The big complaint is the amount of flamers I field against everyone (alot of them play non-MEQ armies) but the MEQ hate the amoutn of models I field combined with the standard power armour save of 3+

[jakehunter52]

I feel you dude. Most of the flak I get from a dude who I am good friends with and game with a lot (and unfortunately has been in the hobby much longer than me) about how much he hates faith. Granted, he is an ork player so those flamers don't do him kindly but he definitely hates turning armour into invo saves and never ceases to complain about that no matter how many times I tell him that it is not overpowered, that I can only do it so much and have a chance of failing it as well. Maybe it's because I play up the situation to much:

"Oh, your 20 orks spent three turns trying to kill my sister squad Wow, not only did you take a long time to do that but I get ANOTHER FAITH POINT! Even in death I win! More flaming DOOM!"

Yeah, some people won't get it and continue their stubborness and you just got to learn to stick it back to them, but in good jest. You don't have to take it and you can dish it out but don't stupor in ignorance like some do. Really, I think it just comes from one of our defining characteristics is very adaptable and their is little our opponent can do to deal with it, making him (or her to be PC) frustrated from their powerlessness. Thankfully, this guy is for the most part an exception and doesn't let it get past a few quips. Other guys I play with are either ok about it, just surprised when I show them what faith in the Emperor can do or actually really excited because they wanted to do the army or think that it is really flavorful. There ain't nothing to be ashamed of, we are doing the world a freakin' service her switching things up so not everyone has to play against marines. Instead, you get to play against underdog girls who's only tools are the gun in her hand and the determination in her head. :wub:

[Imperialis_Dominatus]

Lol... as a tau player, doesn't he just wipe out the exorcist at long range with railguns? Or does he hate railguns cause they're shooting weapons which are thus overpowered?

 

You'd think he would. He does try to be a non-cheese type- I have seen him use Vespid, after all. But with Tau firepower, he's really got nothing to worry about from what's basically a Predator chassis.

 

Point out the Cyclic Ion Blaster to him.. watch his head implode at his own weapon being cheesy :P

 

Haha. No, it mainly seems to be when units in other armies even approach Tau firepower, I think. :wub: GG, Tau player. GG.

[Gentlemanloser]

In addition to Faith, and the cheap cost of a 20 strong Troop choice (even with T3, they get a 3+ Save), Flamers do play a big part.

 

They are part and parcel of a SoB army, but the change to template wounding in 5th has made Flamers so much stronger.

 

Hitting with the teardrops before removing casualties (not resolving one teardrop before the other) racks up so many more kills with them now.

 

This on top of a 20 strong Bolter using Squad getting AP1 shots on 6's, Squads that can automatically rally and regroup when low (thanks to a Faith roll you probably won't fail), and the 3+ Invulnerable save, (So it's really hard to stop Sisters scoring on Objectives) is what rolls up the package of hate for the SoB. Dropping two Teardrops, and 36 Bolter shots (with Marine BS) on a unit, with any 6's rolled being AP1 hurts.

 

And it's mainly due to the changes that 5th have brought, that have indirectly improved Sister play.

 

One major gripe is probably that there's no counter to Faith. It's not a Psychic power, so none of those work. No Runes of Warding (is that the right one?), no Psychic Hood, no Blessing of the Blood God.

 

I don't have any negative views on the Sisters, but I know players that will refuse to play them.

[Tauren]

Really? with max of 20 sisters + a vet how are you getting tear drops + 20 strong of bolters?

[Gentlemanloser]

To be in range for those Tear Drops, your Bolters can double tap...

 

I've hit 10 Man squads fully with two Teardrops before. So 20 automatic + 36 depending on to hit S4+ Shots, with every 6 being a wound at AP1....

[OrdosInquisition]

As someone who has only been playing the hobby for a little under five months, I know what your saying. Actually, two weeks ago one of the GW guys at my local store, the manager no less who works there full time, told me he thought Witch Hunter players were all cheats because of the faith point system. He went on to say the Sisters players lack skill and playing the army generally creates people who think they are good at the game but really are just playing for sheer empowerment of the faith points and because they are so hideously powerful and there is no way to counter them, the majority of the time Witch Hunters players are just optimizing jerks.

To be honest, I wasn't and still am not sure as to how to take that and admittedly I have played less games after hearing it.

 

I mean in some ways I can sort of see his point:

 

A sister is 11 points while a Storm Trooper is 10, the difference between a Storm trooper and a sister is essentially 1 point, and that 1 point is supposedly supposed to cover the Adepta Sororatis rule, Power Armour as opposed to carapace and Boltgun as opposed to a Hellgun. Anyone in their right mind can tell you thats an amazing deal.

I suppose resentment from the faith system stems from the fact that it is so incredibly different to anything else in the game and to make matters worse, there is no real way to counter it. I am a big advocative of balance in any system or game I play and to say here is an ability you can do nothing about and allows my troop unit to decimate that squad of Terminators with my boltguns doesn't really seem fair does it? And its not really going to console an opposing player to say, "Well the other units in my codex aren't worth taking" if your churning out dozens of units that can do the above.

I guess my point is, being a relatively new player, If i was not playing Sisters and instead I had joined up and gone with Space Marines and I got a shiny new unit of Terminators and when they hit the board a unit of Sisters with boltguns mowed the entire unit down with AP 1 bolters, and then one unit every turn (or perhaps more) used that ability on my space marines, I wouldn't be so eager to play against them either.

 

So I feel kind of cheap now, like I'm playing a bodged army list and I'm not sure I like it. I just don't like the idea of destroying other peoples fun with a power they can't do anything about. I mean I still love my sisters and I still want to play them but it's weird.

[Tauren]

Really? I was of the opinion that it also covered the utter lack of any special weapons besides melta's and flamers access to other troop transports including a chimera. Turn the equation around and ask what space marines can do? to sisters? or the optimized shooting list of dooms some army can tote? Shot, blowing up their rhino's leaves sisters in more trouble than actually killing the sisters. Some armies can pick and choose entire squads to disappear a turn and this is the smart way to play. If you can help it eliminate an entire squad first before going after another. The special weapons die last which do the most damage. Why the hell else would he not use something at his disposal?

 

From what I just read 5th edition has turned sisters from an army that was laughed at, from my local store random talk about a tournament with a sisters player, into a viable army... without a new codex. How is that a bad thing? On top of that are you winning 100% of the time? because if you are then it's not because of sisters. 9/10 times players with a certain army whine when the other army actually threatens them and they are childish. Good players would just want to play you again.

 

The argument of faith is kinda lame really... that's like saying the lazer pointers that pathfinders use are lame. Or the special ammo some units use is lame. Or drop pods are lame. All of which are unique rules that are may or may not be 1 shot only.

[number6]

@Ordos: GW let's somebody manage their store who calls people who employ one of their supported armies cheaters? That is shameful. Is this a guy an Eldar player who, in 4th edition, ran three holo-Falcons and 2-3 squads of harlequins, perchance? :D

 

Ask this guy -- anybody who think Faith is "cheesy" or "broken" -- to actually play the army for a while. Sisters are not overpowered. Definitely not in comparison to the rest of the 40K armies out there. And without Faith, they simply would not make the cut.

 

Also ask this guy why, if Sisters are so over-the-top, where all the tourney players are who would obviously be playing this army and not mech Eldar, or 'nidzilla, or Orks, or any of the other armies that we have seen dominating the tourney circuits for several years.

 

I think the evidence speaks for itself. And anybody who makes hateful, blanket claims like that need a reality check, if not a metaphorical slap in the head.

 

So play your army with pride. If you mow over someone and they cry foul, challenge them to switch armies with you and play. Sisters -- Faith included -- do not come with an Easy button.

[Tauren]

Simple fix... Play that person with faith, then without faith... then again without faith... then again without faith... If you get massacred you have your answer.

[ripath]

well seeing as I enjoy playing against sisters armies more then I do the general horde armies due to similar weaknesses to my gk. that aside there are three things that you should take into consideration

1: Obviously take the sisters with a grain of salt, against massive amounts of anything cc or shooting they are going to die.

2: Sisters come only in metal. Ask your complaining opponent who probably has yet to even paint a pewter model let alone buy an army of them how much their army cost them. then tell how much your army cost.

3: Treat all people that generalize like flamers on the internet. they should be dealt with in the same way using cold hard flawless logic.

 

The more I play the more I think that the best players in this game aren't the ones that can win but the ones that can lose. of which those that strive to win next game provide the most growth out of any gamer. (this is obviously self gratification for my horrible tactical abilities)

 

 

btw I thought that beardy meant that someone was just cunning like the fox. Not how their units worked.

[Mal]

I agree with all 3 points.... but point 3 doesn't always work, if you try to show logic to someone who refuses to see reason then you are doing nothing but wasting your breath. My personal approach is to simply ignore them.

[vytzka]

Simple fix... Play that person with faith, then without faith... then again without faith... then again without faith... If you get massacred you have your answer.

Maybe try taking on a 1500 point army with 1000 points of yours too? I'm not sure what your experiment is going to determine here.

 

Faith points are an integral part of the army, and their worth is ideally included in the worth of all relevant units (even considering the joke that balance between GW codices is). No kidding that Sisters will perform worse without them.

 

P.S. Stormtroopers are overpriced at 10 points, not Sisters underpriced at 11. Try Ork Boyz maybe.

[Melissia]

Per points cost, Marines are more efficient than Ssiters. *shrug*

 

 

Let's see...

 

Taking off the cost of the bolt pistol, frag nades, krak nades, and free special/heavy weapon... it ends up around 11 pointsl. That is to sa, Marines pay about that much for an MEQ statline, bolter/PA, ATSKNF, combat tactics, combat squadding. While Sisters pay 11 points for the Sororitas statline, bolter/PA, acts of faith, and shield of faith.

 

 

Honestly, Marines get the better deal. Faith is the only thing that keeps the Sisters even remotely viable.

[Coppella]

@Ordos: GW let's somebody manage their store who calls people who employ one of their supported armies cheaters? That is shameful. Is this a guy an Eldar player who, in 4th edition, ran three holo-Falcons and 2-3 squads of harlequins, perchance? :)

Sad, but most likely true. GW staffers are only human, but to actually be belligerent to customers and players is certainly against their ethics.

 

OrdosInquisition[/b]]I guess my point is, being a relatively new player, If i was not playing Sisters and instead I had joined up and gone with Space Marines and I got a shiny new unit of Terminators and when they hit the board a unit of Sisters with boltguns mowed the entire unit down with AP 1 bolters, and then one unit every turn (or perhaps more) used that ability on my space marines, I wouldn't be so eager to play against them either.

Except the whole squad will most likely not be totally AP1 shots. You need to roll 2d6 and get less than the squad #, than you need to roll "6"s on the to wound for it to even be AP1. You could possibly get zero "6"s and the faith point had no effect at all. Even the 3+ invul save is only going off after the unit has taken a fair amount of wounds. Last time I checked, SM Terminators can have a 3+invul save for the whole game. Lots of units in the game have AP 1-3. There certainly isn't anything you can do to Thousand Sons to negate their AP3 bolters, which are always Ap3.

 

Monolith living metal, Harliquin veil of tears, Dark Eldar Wytchs combat drugs, Drop pod assault, and Tau JSJ suits, are all things in the game that have special rules you can't do anything about. These are all things that are active 100% of the time.

[Marid]

yeah, but if they don't get shot at that means that the enemies are shooting at someone else instead, probably your more vulnerable squads. Not saying it isn't occasionally useful, just that it's nothing to scream about.

 

I think he means that he uses the 20-woman squad with 3+ invulnerable saves to give cover to the squads behind it.

[Melissia]

In that case, cudos... but I don't see that working very often against Marine armies. Maybe I'm facing more drop pods than normal.

[Mal]

The =][= forces are badly out matched againstthe new 5th ed C:SM with their shiny new toys and cheap yet highly effective units.

 

Granted yes, its been a long time since C:SM was a viable option to win tournies with, but it is now soo easy to boost the SM armies with more power thanthe older armies are capable of dealing with, just think 3 drop pods full of sternguard rattling off AP3 bolter rounds at rapid fire range? SIXTY AP3 shots.... not a nice thought, espically since 2 of the pods will arrive on TURN ONE!!!

 

But thats just one example of the brute force new C:SM armies have access to.

 

All things considered, I play GK and SoB, but providing the players are of a like skill level then my bets will be on C:SM.

You'll usually notice the people who scream cheese the loudest at GK/Sob armies are the people who loose to them.

[Utsujin]

I'd just keep my sisters in their transports so they have nothing to shoot at on their turn. Pick off one squad at a time. Plus 3 sternguard units is like.. what? over 600 points?