Negativity toward Sisters of Battle

[jakehunter52]

A sister is 11 points while a Storm Trooper is 10, the difference between a Storm trooper and a sister is essentially 1 point, and that 1 point is supposedly supposed to cover the Adepta Sororatis rule, Power Armour as opposed to carapace and Boltgun as opposed to a Hellgun. Anyone in their right mind can tell you thats an amazing deal.

 

True that. Compared to stormtroopers, Sisters are totally worth it. However, I feel like this won't be the case for very long. For what I hear in the wind, regular IG troops are going to be significantly cheaper than orks (gives a whole new meaning to horde army doesn't it?) which means stormtrooper costs are going to be dropped, which I think they should. The only reason why I would take them is because they were cheap if you only took five of them and you could give them two special weapons. Perfect tank or elite killers. So really, they were just priced almost perfectly if you look at this way. Plus, even if the price doesn't drop, remember the only way to get faith with basic sisters is to upgrade to a Vet and even then, she has to be the last to die if you want to get the Martyr point as well. So no hating here!

 

 

I suppose resentment from the faith system stems from the fact that it is so incredibly different to anything else in the game and to make matters worse, there is no real way to counter it. I am a big advocative of balance in any system or game I play and to say here is an ability you can do nothing about and allows my troop unit to decimate that squad of Terminators with my boltguns doesn't really seem fair does it?

 

OK, while this does seem brutal, it is because they don't realize that we have traded a lot for it. Space Marines are awesome because they are good at everything! They can shoot with equally devastating force as they can close combat someone to death. We on the other hand can't do everything, we have to shoot it dead before it can get it's greasy ugly hands on us. It gives our opponent a weakness they will always be able to exploit and which will be their key for winning battles. But it's not like I am going to let them do that though, which is what makes it a fun, competitive and interesting game. I remember in a tournament a while back when I DS my Grey Knights and soon discovered that my opponent had a PC and used it to terrible effect. My weakness, which is why I don't DS anymore (or at least without the proper cover or circumstances). So yeah, they are being a poor sport, which I am guilty of as well sometimes but I always get over it and go out there again to do my best, learn and win! ;)

[ArmouredWing]

Here's a story for you.

 

I used to be a fluffy, non competative player who liked to put together mixed lists which, albeit fun were pretty in effectual against predominantly tournie lists. In the end I got fed up of fighting the good fight but not being able to stand against all and sundry.

Now I play for keeps. My standard 1500pt list has 4 big squads of sisters and 3 exocists with the rest of the points being ploughed into my hq, jump or retinue and I hate to say it but I'm enjoying the game more now than before. W:L:D are fairly even but at the same time it's not a no brainer roster and if I make mistakes I still suffer for them.

[Gentlemanloser]

which means stormtrooper costs are going to be dropped, which I think they should.

 

I'm 100% sure that the cost of IST won't change a jot when the new IG 'dex is out.

 

But hey, at least we can fix our broken out of date codexes by allying in the soon to be new cheaper IG than use our own ones....

 

/golfclap

[Arkaniss]

Well, i am a little suprised at reading this. A little, up to a couple of weeks ago i would have been very suprised!

 

Generally my gaming group love my Sisters - its an old Codex and naturally out-dated, but it still has its decent choices, and i'm a pretty decent player with them. So they know they're in for a good game - i'm not a push over. At least, not now - lets not talk about when i was starting out... :huh:

 

Once someone grumbled about me taking 3 transports in a game but was laughed into silence by the others, otherwise people know my codex isn't neccessarily a very powerful one - and i still get comments about how nice the models are.

 

One of my friends frequents another gaming group and a few weeks ago he played a Sisters player and he ended up losing - a sound defeat. Now its been a long time since i've played my SoB army (not used them in 5th as yet... i should address that) - he hadn't faced my Sisters in many months. We chatted about his game the next day and i was gobsmacked.

 

A heavy flamer Immolator firing twice, Sisters being Toughness 4, Acts of Faith going off all over the place when they shouldn't... this opponent my friend faced outright lied and made things up! So i'm not suprised if some people have misguided opinions about Sisters if there are people like this around. I was quite angry when i heard all this - i didn't like the thought of someone giving my army a bad name.

 

People use 'beardy' or 'cheesy' as a crutch - they use it on things they don't understand, or understand how to counter. As long as the codex is used properly, and Acts of Faith used correctly then there isn't an issue.

[Melissia]

Yeah, those people that lie about the codex are scum. Still, why didn't people ask to see their codex? One should ALWAYS have their army's codex out....

[Lady_Canoness]

To be fair, anyone who comes across as a power gamer is gonna get dumped on no matter what army they play. Shucks, there used to be a Tau guy in my group who was so into power gaming that people would down-right refuse to play him because he wasn't offering any enjoyment in a game at all for the other person - it was called, "walk towards my guns so I can shoot you in ways you cannot possibly shoot back."

 

Sisters, because our Codex has relatively few units to choose from when going for pure Sisters, gets a knock because we tend to maximize the use of powerful units (simply because we see them as the only viable ones), but let me ask you, if you were facing 2 Jump Canoni, 4 squads of mechanized Sisters, and 3 Exorcists, what would your reaction be? Mine would be bad - I can tell you that much. Already, win or lose, I can tell that this game is going to be BORING. What games do you remeber? The games where you totally crush some poor guy with a power list, or the games where you had a tonne of fun and a really close fought battle? I'm guessing the latter. Now, from my perspective, power gaming lists just don't generate fun - they are hyper competative, and if you win its like "good, the list worked" whereas it you lose its like "what the hell? how did he beat me?" Tried that - not fun. Stressful, but not fun.

Me, I run a list with a Jump Canoness, her Seraphim, a Palatine, her Celestians, their Immolator, 2 Sister squads on foot, Dominions in another Immolator, a small squad of retributors, and an exorcist.

So far, other than the occasional whining about so many faith points, I get good, fun games, and often my opponent will tell me that he(or she) really enjoyed playing against my army - win or lose.

 

So, for me, its all in the army composition. If its themed, fluffy, and balanced, you should be in for a fun time without too many complaints (unless the other guy is a jerk, noob, or someone who has issues with not destroying you). Same rule holds for all armies - just last time I had a guy offer me $250 bucks for my all aspect warrior, all footslogging Swordwind Eldar because (even though I lost pretty badly the game when he was watching) "they just looked so awesome to play, and he loved their style". I turned him down because I still am very attached to my Eldar, but I think it just goes to show that what you put on the table has so much more to do with a player's response that what is in your codex.

 

-L_C

[Silent Requiem]

Sisters, because our Codex has relatively few units to choose from when going for pure Sisters, gets a knock because we tend to maximize the use of powerful units (simply because we see them as the only viable ones), but let me ask you, if you were facing 2 Jump Canoni, 4 squads of mechanized Sisters, and 3 Exorcists, what would your reaction be? Mine would be bad - I can tell you that much.

 

You're probably right. I would probably seriously question what the heck I can possibly do. But then, I try not to let my fear reaction stop me from doing... anything, really. I've faced tons of armies that have terrified me, and I can't see what the heck I'm going to do, but I see that as a challenge rather than a reason to quit. Fear is like a warning light on your dashboard, it tells you that you need to pay attention to what's happening, but not that you shouldn't get in the car.

 

Already, win or lose, I can tell that this game is going to be BORING. What games do you remeber? The games where you totally crush some poor guy with a power list, or the games where you had a tonne of fun and a really close fought battle? I'm guessing the latter. Now, from my perspective, power gaming lists just don't generate fun - they are hyper competative, and if you win its like "good, the list worked" whereas it you lose its like "what the hell? how did he beat me?" Tried that - not fun. Stressful, but not fun.

 

The games I remember? I remember the games where I had to play perfectly to win. The games where I shouldn't have won; had no business winning, but I won anyway, because I rose to the occasion and so did my opponent.

 

I think people really have gotten this all backwards. If I step into the ring with Mike Tyson, is it his fault that he out weighs and out classes me? Or am I at fault for being the idiot that thought he could punch above his weight? I tend to think it's the latter. So I guess I would encourage those so inclined not to "step into the ring" with those who out class them; by all means refuse to play the lists that scare you out of your comfort zone. But accept what you are doing, and don't try to dress it up by blaming the other guy. Good sportsmen (and women) are never stinting in their praise for those who surpass them.

 

For clarity: "You" is generic, and not directed at anyone posting here.

 

-Silent Requiem

[Coppella]

To be fair, anyone who comes across as a power gamer is gonna get dumped on no matter what army they play. Shucks, there used to be a Tau guy in my group who was so into power gaming that people would down-right refuse to play him because he wasn't offering any enjoyment in a game at all for the other person - it was called, "walk towards my guns so I can shoot you in ways you cannot possibly shoot back."

 

Sisters, because our Codex has relatively few units to choose from when going for pure Sisters, gets a knock because we tend to maximize the use of powerful units (simply because we see them as the only viable ones), but let me ask you, if you were facing 2 Jump Canoni, 4 squads of mechanized Sisters, and 3 Exorcists, what would your reaction be? Mine would be bad - I can tell you that much. Already, win or lose, I can tell that this game is going to be BORING. What games do you remeber? The games where you totally crush some poor guy with a power list, or the games where you had a tonne of fun and a really close fought battle? I'm guessing the latter. Now, from my perspective, power gaming lists just don't generate fun - they are hyper competative, and if you win its like "good, the list worked" whereas it you lose its like "what the hell? how did he beat me?" Tried that - not fun. Stressful, but not fun.

Me, I run a list with a Jump Canoness, her Seraphim, a Palatine, her Celestians, their Immolator, 2 Sister squads on foot, Dominions in another Immolator, a small squad of retributors, and an exorcist.

So far, other than the occasional whining about so many faith points, I get good, fun games, and often my opponent will tell me that he(or she) really enjoyed playing against my army - win or lose.

 

The list of folks that have complained about my last tournament list is still growing. Here is the list in question:

HQ (394pts)- Canoness Okura - Blessed Weapon, Inferno Pistol, Cloak of St. Aspira, Book of St. Lucias, Litanies of Faith, frag. Celestian Retinue - Veteran Sister Superior, Plasma pistol, and Eviscerator. 8 Celestials: Heavy Flamer, Meltagun. Rhino - Storm bolter x 2, blessed ammo, Dozer blade.

Troop 1 (212) - Sisters of Battle Squad - Veteran Sister Superior, Book of Saint Lucius, Combi-flamer: 9 Sisters - Heavy Flamer, Flamer. Transport Repressor: extra armor.

Troop 2 (196) - Sisters of Battle Squad - Veteran Sister Superior, Book of Saint Lucius, Combi-flamer: 9 Sisters - Heavy Flamer, Meltagun. Transport Rhino.

Troop 3 (186) - Sisters of Battle Squad - Veteran Sister Superior, Book of Saint Lucius: 9 Sisters - Hvy Flamer, Meltagun. Transport Rhino.

Troop 4 (167) - Sisters of Battle Squad - Veteran Sister Superior, Book of Saint Lucius: 11 Sisters - Flamer, Meltagun.

Fast Attack (235pts) - Seraphim Squad - Veteran Sister Superior, bolt pistol, Eviscerator, Book of Saint Lucias: 7 Sisters, 2 Twin-hand flamers.

Heavy Support 1 (177pts) - Retributor Squad - Veteran Sister Superior, Book of Saint Lucius, Storm bolter. 7 Sisters, 4 Heavy Bolters.

Heavy Support 2 (135pts)- Exorcist

I am completely at a loss on how to change anything to make it appeal to the masses for comp score. Its this kind of negativity that's really been bugging me. I could understand if I was running 2 Canonesses or, 2+ exorcists. I only tested the duel Cannoness once, and that was a massive 3k pt game. 2 Exorcists don't usually show up till about 2k points. That's just me though.

What do people want us to do, take ISTs, Priests, etc. That defeats the purpose of a pure Sisters army.

[Gentlemanloser]

This is another problem, one I'm having a hard time answering.

 

What makes a cheesy/beardy/overpowered/toutnament/whatever you want to call it list?

 

Taking multiples of units? Multiple of 'good' units? Should we avoid outright borken units altogether? What makes a unit broken in any case? Tailoring your list to your opponent?

 

Do some armies *have* to downpower themselves for fun matches versus other players?

 

At what level have you stopped trying to make a useful list from your codex? As asked aobve, sohuld you not use three Exorcists, two land Raiders? Should you include week Troop choices, you normally wouldn't touch, becuase your Troops are very strong/efficent?

 

What happens if your Codex offers no versatility? Like taking two/three Land Raiders is a no no, but you only have Dreadnoughts or an Orbital Strike as your other option. Are you damned for being cheesy if you do, or damned to be an un fun to play easy wlak over if you're not?

 

Is your opponent fielding three Sternguard, Scoring Units (with Lysander and Kantor attached), and getting them all to DS on the first turn cheesy? Is it fun to play against?

 

People use 'beardy' or 'cheesy' as a crutch - they use it on things they don't understand, or understand how to counter.

 

While that might be true, as I mentioned above, that flies out of the window when you do face something like 4ths equivalent of Three Falcon, Three Harlie lists.

 

Unfun to play versus, not becuase they weren't understood.

 

But is it wrong for your opponent to use them?

 

If so, what's right? One Falcon? One Harlie? None?

 

Would it have been a problem if that sort of list was facing another 'power' gamed list? Or would they still be cheesy and have to include a squad of Guardians with no Warlock and no Heavy Weapon just to be 'legit'?

[Melissia]

You mean like an Eldar opponent switching out his HQ for an Avatar because he knows he's facing a Sisters army taht deosn't have vehicles?

[Chengar Qordath]

You mean like an Eldar opponent switching out his HQ for an Avatar because he knows he's facing a Sisters army taht deosn't have vehicles?

Eh, that's just one example of a broader issue; when people already know what your army setup is going to be before they draw up their list bad things happen no matter which armies are involved.

[Gentlemanloser]

You mean like an Eldar opponent switching out his HQ for an Avatar because he knows he's facing a Sisters army taht deosn't have vehicles?

 

Not only that, but how about an Eldar player that *always* uses the Avatar. When facing a Sister list and including him (as usual), would he be cheesy/powergaming/etc.

 

Would he have to drop the Avatar, because of your army, just to provide a 'friendly' game?

 

Edit: And then if he isn't, why is the guy who switches the avatar in? Isn't it part and parcel of 40K to design 'winning' lists? 40K isn't a roleplaying game, it's a war game, with distinct winners and losers.

 

And you play 40K to win.

 

And just because one guy *always* uses a mini that's very effective versus your army, it's ok for him to strike it lucky and be 'overpowered' versus you, but the guy who changes his list to face you is no longer 'friendly'?

[Mal]

Cheesy/beardy are terms far too subjective to be used reasonably. There is one player in particular who even went so far as to delcare every army I own as 'nothing but cheese'. The problem is once someone has an opinion fixed in their mind, there is nothing you can do to show them otherwise.

 

Me personally I will admit there are elements in my army that may be considered 'cheesy' but my armies as a whole balance out, for example the only armies with notable cheesy elements are my orks and grey knights, the knights have 2 raiders, well I dont like dreadnought and I play marines about 90% of the time, which means I face huge amounts of AP3 or better weaponry... yet the only time I can take that in my GK army is a single shot weapon on my HQ. So to balance things out and make my force more survivable, I take the only transport option avaliable. As for the orks, its a troop heavy list (which is both traditional and fluffy), but to counter this I have taken none of their nice toys, I will not use skinrot (or what ever his name is), I will not use a shokk attack gun, I dont use lootas/flashgits/burnas/battlewagons/artiliry etc etc etc. This is my effort to make the list 'friendly'.

 

Its a shame that somepeople class cheesy as anything they cannot kill on turn one.

[BattleCaptain]

I'm just glad that anything goes with my gaming group. No one minds how "cheesy' your army is. Heck, they don't even mind a baneblade being used alongside an armored company with grey knight terminators to back them up. They happily take on armies with five or six carnifexes being fielded all at once. :) To them, the tougher the list is to beat, the better. :)

[Tauren]

And just because one guy *always* uses a mini that's very effective versus your army, it's ok for him to strike it lucky and be 'overpowered' versus you, but the guy who changes his list to face you is no longer 'friendly'?

 

There is a difference here... The answer is that Sisters lists people are complaining about are "all comers" lists. Not specialized lists that are built or take specific models to deal with a certain army. In this case an avatar HQ against a sisters army. Not that I know what that gives them in benefit, but simply saying.

 

This is true for warhammer as well. You build all-comers lists unless you know you are facing a specific opponent, in which case if both agree then it's okay to tailor both lists to fight that specific opponent and produce a better game for both to enjoy.

[Utsujin]

I vsed a marine army yesterday and he complained how sisters are cheap with the faith points.. I'm like, right becuase you get a bolter, bolt pistol, and frag and krak grenades, and a free veteran sargeant. Cry me a river. He was mad because I toasted 3 taac squads down to 1 or 2 men each in 2 rounds of shooting with a heavy flamer and flamer combo on 2 squads, and a heavy flamer, melta gun combo on another. I ground down his assault squad with my seraphim squads. I used up most of my acts of faith within 3 turns.

[Melissia]

I really don't see why people complain about all-comers lists. I think it's unfluffy for an army led by a commander with any level of intelligence to not be set up to take on all comers, even if they are slightly focused against one kind rather than the other-- for example, an SM commander might take more heavy bolters if they're facing Orks, but they'd also still take missile launchers and meltaguns too.

[Tauren]

Oh god I'm Orcs and those are sisters! they have flame throwers and faith! CHEESE!

Oh god I'm Tau and those are sisters! they have flame throwers and faith! CHEESE!

Oh god I'm Necron and those are sisters! they have flame throwers and faith! CHEESE!

Oh god I'm Space Marines and those are sisters! they have flame throwers and faith! CHEESE!

Oh god I'm Chaos Space Marines and those are sisters! they have flame throwers and faith! CHEESE!

Oh god I'm Eldar and those are sisters! they have flame throwers and faith! CHEESE!

Oh god I'm Dark Eldar and those are sisters! they have flame throwers and faith! CHEESE!

Oh god I'm Imperial Guard and those are sisters! they have flame throwers and faith! CHEESE!

Oh god I'm Tyranids and those are sisters! they have flame throwers and faith! CHEESE!

 

 

See what I did there?

[Mal]

Oh god I'm Orcs and those are sisters! they have flame throwers and faith! CHEESE!

Oh god I'm Tau and those are sisters! they have flame throwers and faith! CHEESE!

Oh god I'm Necron and those are sisters! they have flame throwers and faith! CHEESE!

Oh god I'm Space Marines and those are sisters! they have flame throwers and faith! CHEESE!

Oh god I'm Chaos Space Marines and those are sisters! they have flame throwers and faith! CHEESE!

Oh god I'm Eldar and those are sisters! they have flame throwers and faith! CHEESE!

Oh god I'm Dark Eldar and those are sisters! they have flame throwers and faith! CHEESE!

Oh god I'm Imperial Guard and those are sisters! they have flame throwers and faith! CHEESE!

Oh god I'm Tyranids and those are sisters! they have flame throwers and faith! CHEESE!

 

 

See what I did there?

 

Unfortunately some people react that way. Personally I fail to see how any sisters build can be cheesy, the one powerful weapon we have is a random weapon (i.e. it cannot be relied upon to deliver when you need it most), we are not cheap enough to qualify as a horde army, we suck in combat compared to EVERY other power armoured force out there, we are one of the few armies left who has to pay for their grenades.

[Tauren]

Which weapon are we talking about? Flame-throwers are reliable, so you must mean the act of faith for ap1 on 6's. IF that's what you mean, who cares when you are throwing 30+ dice at a unit. As for horde, naaahh sisters don't want to be horde, they want to be a trooper army, which they are.

[Melissia]

Which weapon are we talking about? Flame-throwers are reliable, so you must mean the act of faith for ap1 on 6's. IF that's what you mean, who cares when you are throwing 30+ dice at a unit. As for horde, naaahh sisters don't want to be horde, they want to be a trooper army, which they are.

The only really poweful weapon we have (powerful in the sense of going after vehicles) is the Exorcist. It's S8 AP1 (no, it's not melta), but can go after vehicles because it fires D6 shots. Meaning, yes, it is quite random.

[Tauren]

Ahhh but see deems the dice. On the flip side is it not a glorious thing when an exorcist or two fire of 6 missle volleys?

[jakehunter52]

I really think that the terms "cheese" and "beardy" can be used in various contexts, some of them actually appropriate and others out of ignorance but overall I think that it is a lot harder to tell what is and isn't cheese in 5th. Min-maxing was definitely an abuse to the game system (2 AC in a termie squad comes to mind) but it is definitely a lot harder to do that with introduction of wound allocation and becoming an objective based game with troops the only scoring unit. There is also the infamous examples of DE and SW, of the tales of how taking those armies to a tournament will earn an automatic 0 for army comp. And I agree, Dark Eldar are completely overpowered and should not be allowed to play until updated. Space Wolves I am more sympathetic to only because I haven't gotten a chance to read their codex more closely. Then there are the very powerful units that take experience and skill to defeat (like the first time you come across harlies, super fexes or Death Company). They are devastating if they get to you and really, it can be abusive in some rights if taken in large quantities and they are expected to win the game for you, rather than your basic troops.

 

So that is where I think Sisters pinned, that our basic troops are almost elitist because of our faith system which allows us to do amazing things. And when you throw in Rhinos to hide behind, Exorcists that kill your Termies or equivalent like nothin', a 5 pt upgrade that makes us effectively stubborn and jump Cannonesses wiping tanks off the board, yeah, kinda overwhelming. But what I think is that really is our strengths covering our weaknesses, which we know best. We know that while we may be stubborn, we are almost always going to lose combat. We know that once our faith runs out, we become a lot less effective, especially our HQ units who won't have an invo save anymore. We know that even when we do have a lot of faith, it is somewhat random and can leave us in vulnerable positions. We know that we need to wipe this unit out or close to it in one turn of shooting or we are going to be screwed. And it goes on! People don't play against us enough to know these things and exploit them, they only see us executing our plan of battle and showing only our strengths and believe them. No cheese and w(h)ine here....

 

On a side note, I really don't think that the Exorcist is any different than a Leman Russ, actually I think Exorcists are a bit worse. An additional point of front and side armour, four weapons including one of which is an AP 3 template and for pretty much the same price? Yeah, Russes rock. We on the other hand get totally screwed once someone rolls a 3 on the pen table, "Yea, I got a holy relic of a vehicle which is now effectively a box. What to do with it?....RAMMING SPEED!"

 

And as another side note, is cheese the reason why people haven't taken DE, SW or even Sisters to GTs to win them and such? That they will get super low on the comp scores or something?

[Mal]

IMHO there isn't much seperating the way a SW army runs and the way a zerker army runs, both have lackluster shooting and extremely powerful CC, if you can keep them out of critical combats then you win. Simple really... or at least in theory.

 

DE are a tricky one, they go both ways, in the hands of a skilled DE player they are just plain nasty... in the hands of a novice.. they are a push over. Which is just like Sisters and even GK's, in the hands of a highly skilled and experienced player, the armies are quite powerful.. but thats little to do with the armies, thats the general making the most of their armies strengths and protecting from their weaknesses.

 

To someone who cannot see a way to beat an army/unit things can often seem cheesy, however if you know how to beat them... well lets just say I strugle not to laugh when people field raiders against me... they rarely make it past turn 2 and only once has one survived... probally because I didn't fire a single shot at it the whole game.

 

Now the problem is convincing the people who cry cheese of this litle fact of life.

[Tauren]

The correct answer is to plant small thermite bombs in your gaming groups heads, keyed to the exact electrical pattern required to say the word "cheesy". An odd side effect is that pizza just became that much more deadly...