The Way of the Flame Warrior

[Melissia]

I'm fairly certain that this thread will not contain some until now unknown insight into the SIsters. It is merely a collection of theory and playstyle that I think suit them best, to go along with the Way of the Water Warrior thread.

 

Bah, I need to jostle my mind and get back in the mood to continue working on it...

[Silent Requiem]

Just wanted to stop by and say that it's great to see a thread like this for sisters. I think they're one of the most fascinating armies in the game, and they deserve a solid tactica.

 

Regarding stormtroopers; am I right in thinking that (much like "pure" GK players) there are many Soritas players who simply don't play with them on principle? If so, then perhaps we should all conclude that this is a thread about "that sort of list" and leave the stormtroopers out of it. Clearly, a person's playstyle makes a huge difference on unit effectiveness, and I think that we can all agree the stormtroopers have a place in certain army types.

 

As for the rest-- those Battle Sister Squads that are holding easy to take objectives generally don't need to use Acts of Faith, and thus acts of faith are conserved for those that are on the front lines. Faith Points are a pool which all squads in the army can draw upon, not just the suad which provides the faith point.

 

I think this is a key point, and one that makes the army so suitable for "Flame" style play. The idea of a Fire army is to overwhelm it's opponent. Faith is a resource that can be concentrated at any point along a Soritas battle line to create local superiority where it is needed most. This, and the other decisions that need to be made about Faith, make SoB the most tactically "advanced" of the Fire armies.

 

If you take, for example, the genestealer horde that is the archtype Fire army, the the general needs to physically concentrate his army where the fighting is. Failure to do so will result in his defeat. An SoB army has the option of spreading it's troops (due to Faith, and being a firepower based army) while maintaining "concentration". The trade off is that assault precludes shooting, so SoB have a limited window of opportunity in which to overwhelm their opponent. To me, this suggests that a Soritas army has more scope for creativity, but less margin for error.

 

Obvious disclaimer: I don't play SoB. :tu: These are just my thoughts.

 

-Silent Requiem

[Chengar Qordath]

I think this is a key point, and one that makes the army so suitable for "Flame" style play. The idea of a Fire army is to overwhelm it's opponent. Faith is a resource that can be concentrated at any point along a Soritas battle line to create local superiority where it is needed most. This, and the other decisions that need to be made about Faith, make SoB the most tactically "advanced" of the Fire armies.

Yeah, one of the big points in my discussion of Faith use is about concentrating your usage of Faith powers in particularly decisive points of the engagement; using DG to destroy a key unit or SotM to preserve one.

[ArmouredWing]

Heh. I don't claim to be unbiased! This thread is geared toward the Flame Warrior type strategy. That is why I stated "This is not a definitive Sisters FAQ". It does not cover everything you can do with the Sisters. It instead covers what I believe is the best and most fluffy way to play the Sisters.

Ok, fair enough, but there is more than one way to play a 'faith & fire' list.

 

Before considering unit abilities or list constructs there are some very fundemental things to understand about WH's and especially SoB when it comes to playing with fire.

The key to a fire style army is knowing that you have got to be absolute in the decision to cover ground as quickly as possible with the intent to either capture objectives or eliminate enemy units for KP's. It's about being bold and forward in your actions taking the fight to the enemy BUT that does not necessarily mean rushing headlong into the enemy without taking advantage of your strengths.

 

To be able to act in such a manner you've firstly got to understand that sisters are not made of glass. They have the potential to be extremely survivable but that is dependant on a combination of 2 factors.

1 - Dividing the attention of your opponent so that they do not have an easy choice when it comes to target selection (creating a fast moving, target rich environment where pressure is applied on all fronts).

2 - Writing a list where units are survivable by their very nature either weight of numbers, transports and the understanding that you will take damage/wounds along the way (i.e. not being forced to panic because you have a reasonable expectation of losses).

 

Without this you will not get your units into the optimum range because, simply put, they'll be dead and you'll have lost.

 

I'd also have to say that although sisters are generally considered to be a fire army, partially by nature of their choice of weaponary, there are other units which squarely fall into the earth category (retributers and, to a lesser extent exorcists) and which are as fluffy and maybe even essential to a competative sisters player.

 

So, before understanding the strength of sisters in whatever list you want to put together you really do have to understand their weaknesses. Low S & T is not a specific weakness, they are disadvantages but ones that yu can overcome. The main weakness' of a sisters list lies in a lack of choice when it comes to long range anti-armour and in a basic sister's ability in HtH but there are others, the key is playing a few games and finding out what type of player you are because personality can be a major driving factor in making an elemental list effective.

[Melissia]

Both retributors and exorcists have their own means of getting to the battle quickly. For example, parking a group of exorcists with heavy bolters, in an immolator with TL heavy bolters, onto a roughly middle piece of cover (or a in your deployment zone, but closer to the middle than normal), without making them spend too much time en route... that way they can provide fire support to a larger range of targets.

 

Exorcists are very offensive oriented as well. You want to spend every turn positioning yourself to get a shot at the most deadly enemy you can find, and then shooting at them-- you don't want the exorcist to hang back, at least not hang back beyond its range, which isn't really all that long (48"). Indeed, the more it hangs back, the more vulnerable it is. If it is a bit closer to your army, your army can support the exorcist if it comes under attack from dedicated assaulters (And with its rear armor of 10, people are VERY tempted to do this, esp with deep strikers, drop podders, and jump troops). I'm currently actually writing up a summary of these two units right now to complete teh other half of the unit list.

[Silent Requiem]

I'd also have to say that although sisters are generally considered to be a fire army, partially by nature of their choice of weaponary, there are other units which squarely fall into the earth category (retributers and, to a lesser extent exorcists) and which are as fluffy and maybe even essential to a competative sisters player.

 

And here you've hit on the other reason I find sisters such a fascinating army. The ONLY significant difference between Earth and Fire SoB are the in game tactics and/especially use of Faith, both of which can change from turn to turn!

 

Faith allows a Sororitas player to switch for Fire to Earth, or the other way around, as he sees fit! This is very similar to a Water army, except that a) Air tactics are generally unavailable to SoB, and b ) they still can't use all three phases to the fullest in a single game turn. Instead they have the resources to "buy" offensive and defensive power when and where they need it.

 

That's freaking cool! :P

 

Really need to hold that objective? Have some invulnerable saves! Really need to wipe that squad out? Enjoy your rending lite! (I know its not quite that simple, but still ;) )

 

Any how, that's not what this topic is about, and I'm not trying to derail it. I'm just trying to say that I agree with the above quote, but we as the OP has stated the "type" of army/tactics under discussion, and I think we have to comment based on those parameters.

 

Btw, really nice work on the tactica so far, though I'm clearly less qualified to comment than the Sororitas vets.

 

-Silent Requiem

[Melissia]

And everything you said is true. The Sisters can typically only use one phase to its fullest extent per turn. Sure, we can use Divine Guidance and then assault for Hand of the Emperor, but then you're foregoing the maximizing of the effects of Divine Guidance with rapid fire bolters.

 

This is why I nominate the shooting phase in most instances (against T4 or better armies most notably). Sisters are universally S3 T3, with one attack (with the exception of Seraphim) each, and no special CC weapons except on their veteran superiors. However, they have bolters, flamers, and the beloved heavy flamers. Combined with Divine Guidance, the Sisters will probably produce many more casualties than if they charged

 

Of course, against T3 armies, Hand of the Emperor suddenly becomes pretty viable, too. Most T3 armies don't have good armor saves, either-- a guardsman's 5+, or an eldar or Tau's 4+, and usually they don't have a higher WS either (except in the case of the Eldar). Charging a Tau Fire Warrior line or a Guardsman infantry squad with Hand of the Emperor is perfectly valid, although I'd only do it if they were on an objective I wanted to force them off of (20-21 S5 attacks can be pretty mean, especially with a heavy flamer happening in the shooting phase before that).

[Toogeloo]

I think it's great that you started this thread Mel. I do have concerns though that, though your intentions are good, you may not be hitting the proper points in a tactica of this nature and you have definitely posted a few rule breaking issues. After reading through the first posts of the topic, I found several errors in rules as well as a few points that held your own personal bias. There is nothing wrong with having a biased opinion, but for tacticas, it is important to suspend those biases. As many have pointed out before, a good tactica shows the pros and cons of all units, wargear, and the synergies between said units. On top of that, you must be absolutely clear on the rules so that the tactica is accurate and doesn't confuse newer players.

 

 

Just a few of my own glances, and I saw a couple were caught as well by other people.

 

 

Celestians and Seraphim are wholely Faithful, meaning the squad itself is faithful. They do not gain an additional faith for upgrading their Superiors, and the superior upgrade price reflects this. As a result, you have to wipe out the entire squad of Seraphim or Celestians to benefit from Martyrdom. The only reason to upgrade Vets in these squads is to gain access to the Armoury.

 

Where is your opinions of The Living Saint, which is also a viable HQ choice, or the Dominion and Retributors? When discussing all units in the Sisters of Battle, be sure to mention the pros and cons of using them. Simply stating they aren't efficient for what they do isn't a very good con. Points aside, it is important to at least understand the role of the squad and how it fits into the tactica. We can all agree that Repentia do not work in a Flame Warrior tactica due to the very nature of the unit.

 

Be careful of mentioning very limited options for the units you present, such as deep striking with a Jumping Canoness if she is with Seraphim or running solo. There is nothing wrong with starting deployed on the board (in fact, I recommend it as deepstrike can hurt more than it helps in games) and there is also nothing wrong with keeping a Canoness attached to Seraphim if you feel that they wont need the Hit and Run ability or they are not in any danger of being assaulted. Also, there is nothing wrong with sacrificing models for more Faith, that is why it is called Martyrdom, and Sisters of Battle fully expect to die in any given encounter, Canonii especially as it inspires their troops to fight for the glory of their fallen comrade, not just tactically, but fluffily too.

 

Probably the most important thing... Immolators are great, but it is a bit contradicting to your tactica by incorporating them as transports for squads (especially since you dont offer Rhinos as the alternative transport). Sisters ARE a shooty army, we just do it up close. We use our close shots to win battles, not our melee prowess, which is absolutely horrid, even on Celestians, therefore we should always be operating on squads of 10 or more for Divine Guidance and Immolator squads should be specialized hunting units (e.g. 4 Meltagun Dominions hunting transports or tanks) meant for a different army focus, not flame warriors.

 

 

Things that are universally agreed upon... Battle Sisters are the best bang for the buck in a Sisters army, and around half the army should consist of this awesome troop choice, especially with a Flame Warrior Mentality. Assault themed sisters, as much fun as they sound, are typically a recipe for disaster, we just aren't good at it, and no amount of faith helps us. The Book of St Lucius is a great piece of wargear, but you do not need to go overboard with the "mandatory" aspect of it. Retributors do not need it nor do Canonii (they should either be attached to a squad with one or if solo it wont help them anyways). I even find it questionable to give it to squads of 6 members or less, but this is becoming more of my opinion.

 

 

 

As I mentioned, it is a great idea to get a tactica going, and I know your intentions are great, but try to make sure the focus isn't too biased or narrow, and make sure you know fully everything about the army. Don't give up on the tactica though. I would rough draft it, make any rules queries you are uncertain of, and don't let personal feelings or play style cloud the meaning of the tactica.

[Melissia]

Where is your opinions of The Living Saint, which is also a viable HQ choice, or the Dominion and Retributors?

My post is only half-finished, as I stated in the post itself. I posted it because I hit a bit of a mental block and can't seem to write anything and it just wasn't finishing.

 

I'll consider editing in some of your suggestions, once my brain gets out of this snag.

 

 

But, in regards to your comments, from the bottom paragraph up... I'll try and respond as coherently as I can...

 

This is a tactica for the "Flame Warrior" type strategy. You can play the army differently, but in order to do so you must not just play it differently, but design it differently. Because of their outdated codex, the Sisters do not have many truelly efficient and viable choices, and so there really isn't as much wiggle room for this strategy as there would be with other armies. By the very nature of the codex, this Tactica is a bit narrow. I may end up making a "Way of the Earth Warrior" tactica for more defensive-minded players which will include the possibilities of footslogging squads, less emphasis on mobility, inducted guard allies, and so on... but in the end... that's not what this tactica article is about.

 

 

The Canoness needs it if she has a retinue or is attatched ot a squad, because with it the squad instead of is leadership 10 instead of 9. True, you only need one per squad, but even Retributors could use it when considering all the various armies one might face and the powers that might attack their leadership.

 

 

Actually, that's what the 2xFlamer, 2xMelta group is intended to fight against-- tanks. But it also has the option of using flamers instead, drive-by flaming. The idea for that particular unit is merely to make it useful against all kinds of targets, but you do have a point in that it doesn't really have the squad size... at the same time, the Immolator only allows two weapons to fire out of it at any given time so a normal BSS squad would disembark, while this squad would stay embarked as long as possible. Regardless, I think that an immolator with TL Heavy Flamers and four flamers, along with a combimelta, is an ideal unit to use for divine guidance if you position them right-- cover as many models as possible with each and every flamer. Just immagine how someone might feel if you did that with divine guidance on his terminators after covering all of them with a flamer each. Personally, I'm rather hesitant on buying four meltaguns for Dominians, it's a points sink in my eyes-- that's sixty points on special weapons alone! Not something I would ever consider doing except in rather high points games, such as 2500+, or Apocalypse games.

 

 

I reccomend deep striking, but in the end it's not as if I say it's mandatory. That's a phrase that I keep ONLY for the BoSL :P I'll edit in that "generally, it is a good idea to" however, as you do have a good point on that.

 

 

There is nothing wrong with intentional Martyrdom gameplay wise. I find it wrong fluff-wise, intentionally killing THAT particular model, especially if it is a veteran celestian or seraphim, or canoness. My objection to that is not in regards to gameplay ta all, merely with the idea that we intentionally kill off a unit to gain a bonus from killing it. I respect my models, especially my HQ choices, as they are, in essence, whose eyes I am playing the game through. I mentioned it as a viable tactic, but on fluff grounds I cannot reccomend it. i'm really already quite tired of GW's desire to martyr the Sisters, constantly making them lose battles and rarely, if ever, giving them any wins. This army wants to win. It doesn't want a phyrric victory, or a win so empty that it might as well be a defeat. To paraphrase a line from Tolkien, the Sisters want to crush their enemies so thoroughly that none can foresee their arising ever again. Thus, I minimize the use of martyrdom on my own part. It is not truelly a victory if your army is left leaderless and decapitated, and your veterans destroyed so that you are left with but novices.

 

 

I'm making a second version which includes that note of RAI versus RAW.

[ArmouredWing]

Both retributors and exorcists have their own means of getting to the battle quickly. For example, parking a group of exorcists with heavy bolters, in an immolator with TL heavy bolters, onto a roughly middle piece of cover (or a in your deployment zone, but closer to the middle than normal), without making them spend too much time en route... that way they can provide fire support to a larger range of targets.

 

Exorcists are very offensive oriented as well. You want to spend every turn positioning yourself to get a shot at the most deadly enemy you can find, and then shooting at them-- you don't want the exorcist to hang back, at least not hang back beyond its range, which isn't really all that long (48"). Indeed, the more it hangs back, the more vulnerable it is. If it is a bit closer to your army, your army can support the exorcist if it comes under attack from dedicated assaulters (And with its rear armor of 10, people are VERY tempted to do this, esp with deep strikers, drop podders, and jump troops). I'm currently actually writing up a summary of these two units right now to complete teh other half of the unit list.

I'll excuse the typo but I've got to say that your take on rets is flawed. Retributers are earth, to try and use them as anything else is purely and simply a waste of points.

 

I'll explain. If a retributer squad is moving it is prevents itself from firing, rets by their nature are one of the very best examples of an entrenched gunline (earth) that, well, anybody could put on the table. They do have the option of being geared up to multi-task, for instance, only equipping a squad with a couple of heavy weapons with the rest equipped as standard but again you're wasting the effectiveness of having those heavy weapons there in the first place.

To effectively field rets you need to have an understanding of what they are there for and they have 2 quite specific battlefield roles which they excell at, either long range anti-infantry firepower (4 HB's) providing support for the front lines or area denial (HB's &/or MultiMeltas) dug into some terrain and making an approach difficult for your opponent (or a mixture of both roles).

To get the most out of them you do have to take their deployment into consideration but the main thing to remember is that they need to be as far back as you can afford them to be (taking into account that most people will use a standard loadout of HB's and that with a 36" you can comfortably sit on your baseline and hit targets from turn 1 as long as you have deployed wisely).

The only time I'd consider giving them an immolator is if I wanted the effectively free HS slot and had maxed out on rets & exorcists already. Again I'd also have to say that generally an immolator with HB's is wasting the key point of effectiveness that it now has which is being able to move 12" and stil fire it's S5 TL Hvy Flamer although there are certain circumstances where I would consider putting a HB immo on the table, e.g. occaisionally in CoD.

 

In regards to exorcists again I disagree. You DO want to hold them back from the main advance because of those exact same assault troops that are usually in the forefront of a lot of armies and the more common shorter ranged high S weapons that can still give an exorcist a bad day. Use the 48" (which is a considerable distance) to your advantage and use the 6" move to position it in the best place so that you can cover the sides and rear with terrain. It's not worth worrying about DS ect because an exorcist should have achieved it's primary objective by turn 3 (luck permitting) and if they are still operative by that point it's a bonus. They will draw fire, they will take hits and again it's a case of being realistic with how much you want it to achieve. Don't plan for a single exorcist to win the game, don't even plan for 3 to win the game because they are there for heavy SUPPORT. Your list should be built to perform on a number of levels and you should ALWAYS have a plan B.

[GTang]

Celestians and, iirc, Seraphim are faithful without a Vet. For those units, adding a Vet doesn't provide an extra faith point. In contrast to a regular battle sister squad, you get to use Acts of Faith until the last model in the unit dies and don't get a faith point back until the last model in the unit dies.

[ArmouredWing]

The Book of St Lucius is a great piece of wargear, but you do not need to go overboard with the "mandatory" aspect of it. Retributors do not need it nor do Canonii (they should either be attached to a squad with one or if solo it wont help them anyways). I even find it questionable to give it to squads of 6 members or less, but this is becoming more of my opinion.

This is a tricky statement because I both agree and, ahem, disagree with what's been said.

 

I too believe that the book is a mandatory piece of equipment for frontline squads (It's a running joke in my group when it comes to working out Ld modifiers and was funny untill the day I played a CP list and forgot to issue it to anybody!). Anyone that is in danger of being forced to make Ld tests should be given the book as a standard, so that includes SoB squads, Celestians, Dominions, Seraphim & the canoness (depending on who she's running with). Even for a low numbered squad that unmodified Ld can make life a misery for an opponent who just wants to make the unit run so they can move onto the next target. Don't underestimate the effectiveness of the book combined with a 3+ save because you can slow even the most determined units down with that kind of tarpit.

 

The one unit that I don't believe should be issued with a book is retributers. Looking at my previous posts it sounds a little like I've got a downer on rets, well I haven't. A squad of 6 with a vet & 4 HB's is enough to make a bad day for most infantry based/light armoured lists but their positioning should mean that they won't be in risk of being shot or assaulted because they'll be using their range to stay away from possible enemies of that nature. Sure they may be vulnerable to the likes of lictors (effective DS & assault) or certain drop pod marine units but you can't expect a support unit to be able to deal with all comers.

So for me the best way to field rets is a squad of 6, 4 HB's & 1 Vet (possibly with an auspex but nothing else and the extra ablative wound/sister available to minimise potential long range lascannon wounds affecting the squad performance).

[panbient]

so is this thread done? i usually play smaller point games with my friends so i was really looking forward to the 1000 point list(s). i have a bunch but i was curious to see the similarities and differences between players.

[Inq. Enmerich Von Vattle]

so is this thread done? i usually play smaller point games with my friends so i was really looking forward to the 1000 point list(s). i have a bunch but i was curious to see the similarities and differences between players.

 

 

QFT

 

Pleasee Melissia come back !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! We need the Emperor's guidance throgh your voice.

[Aidoneus]

The ONLY significant difference between Earth and Fire SoB are the in game tactics and/especially use of Faith, both of which can change from turn to turn!

Not sure I agree with this. I declined to comment earlier, but it's been bugging me.

 

While it's true that faith can be used both offensively and defensively, that doesn't equate to Fire and Earth, as you yourself made very clear in your tactica.

 

Simply put, an Earth sisters list and a Fire sisters list will take different unit selections, deploy differently, and have different playstyle from before the game even begins.

 

Unit Selections: A Fire sisters list will want to focus on a crushing turn or two of offense, and the unit choices will reflect that. Squads will be mounted in Rhinos to get into rapid-fire/flamer range. They will all have flamers of some variety. Cannonesses will be equipped for close combat, since you know you'll be charged by something. There will be no infantry-carried heavy weapons. This is the only army you will see seraphim in, and it is quite likely you will see them.

 

The Earth sisters army, on the other hand, will focus on surviving at all costs. Squads will be big, and most likely unmounted (although they might take rhinos as mobile cover, or to sit them on an objective). This is the only sisters list where you'll see retributors, and it is quite likely that you will see them.

 

Deployment: The Fire list wants to get within 12" (preferably within 6") as fast as possible, because every turn you sit back means more dead rhinos, which means fewer shots in range, which means a less effective crushing-blow offense. Therefore, the Fire army will deploy at the very front of its deployment zone (or perhaps as near to it as possible behind cover). Squads will, without question, be in their rhinos or right behind (depending on if you have first turn and can move right away or have to survive fire before mounting during your own 1st turn).

 

The Earth army wants to survive above all else, particularly once it gets on/near objectives. It will, without doubt, deploy in cover-granting terrain (or close to, if it has first turn and can enter cover before being shot). While a couple squads might be forward to sit on objectives, most of the army doesn't need (nor indeed, want) to be particularly close to the enemy, so will probably deploy further back.

 

Playstyle: The Fire army needs to deliver a crushing blow as quickly as it can. This is the sole focus of the entire first and second turns. Any deviation from this goal, any hedging or side-tracking, will weaken the power of the death-blow, and will thus weaken the effectiveness of the army. Granted, once the crushing blow is dealt, the army can do whatever else in the turns to follow, which probably means mopping up or objective-grabbing. But in those first two turns, the Fire player MUST follow his plan, or he dooms his own army.

 

The Earth army needs to outlive its opponent. If it rushes out, blindly trying to inflict casualties early, it will suffer too many casualties in return, and will fail. It absolutely must protect itself, at all costs, and inflicting damage is only ever a secondary goal. Even more than the Fire strategy, the Earth strategy determines the course of the entire game, and again, any deviation will weaken the list.

 

 

I don't disagree that sisters are capable of offense and defense, and that focus can change from turn to turn. But that's not the same as Fire or Earth. Any Fire list will be built as a Fire list, will deploy as a Fire list, and will play as a Fire list, and similarly for Earth. Any mixing, and you're just diluting the abilities of either element.

[Melissia]

so is this thread done? i usually play smaller point games with my friends so i was really looking forward to the 1000 point list(s). i have a bunch but i was curious to see the similarities and differences between players.

 

 

QFT

 

Pleasee Melissia come back !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! We need the Emperor's guidance throgh your voice.

I'll work on it a bit more. This thread is DEFINITELY not done.

[Silent Requiem]

Not sure I agree with this. I declined to comment earlier, but it's been bugging me.

 

Very fair comments. Any comments I have about SoB comes from a purely observational point of view, as I have never played them outside a squad of Seraphim with my GK.

 

My view (at the time of posting) was that there was less distinction between the lists than you have suggested. In part this is probably because I am overestimating the usefulness of the "run" rule in 5th, which I haven't had a chance to play with yet, and partly because I've never been any good at designing Earth or Fire lists in any event. If you say that these things are so, then I have no reason to doubt that.

 

Perhaps I should simply say that I'm impressed by how Faith can be used both offensively and defensively within the same game, and that level of flexibility makes for an exciting army and playstyle.

 

-Silent Requiem

[Inquisitor Fox]

One thing people have seemed to have missed... There is DEFINATELY a point to upgrading your Seraphim to have a Veteran Sister Superior. While said Sister is alive, she also acts as a Simulacrum Imperialis.. meaning all faith tests are on 3d6, discard one die. Since Seraphim are sometimes exposed apart from the rest of your army on a mission and suffer from lower squad sizes than other units, this increased Faith Test passing ability is very critical.

 

Than and then you can give her a plasma pistol... making an anti-armor unit of Seraphim with 2 twin-linked inferno pistols and a plasma pistol, then giving everyone melta-bombs makes short work of tanks :lol:

 

@Silent Requiem: Sometimes the most true observations are those made from an outsider.. as they have totally different biases and can sometimes give a much more honest, neutral opinion. They're always worth listening to! You don't give yourself enough credit. A good tactician and strategist is a godo tactician and strategist, and can often comment intelligently upon any unit they are familiar with, whether it's their army of choice or not. Having a feel for the battlefield is a skill of the general, not of the numbers and stats in a book. So keep commenting ^_^

 

@Melissia: I do have to agree that RAW states the Celestian Squad generates a Faith Point, but a VSS for Celestians do not. It does NOT say you get an additional one for the character upgrade, therefore you don't. Other Squad options specifically state under the "character" upgrade bold heading in the squads upgrades and options list that the upgrade gives you an additional Faith Point. If it were in a game, I wouldn't let someone do it, either for my side or against, because the rules specifically disagree with that point.

[Aidoneus]

@Silent Requiem: Sometimes the most true observations are those made from an outsider.. as they have totally different biases and can sometimes give a much more honest, neutral opinion. They're always worth listening to! You don't give yourself enough credit. A good tactician and strategist is a godo tactician and strategist, and can often comment intelligently upon any unit they are familiar with, whether it's their army of choice or not. Having a feel for the battlefield is a skill of the general, not of the numbers and stats in a book. So keep commenting :D

Agreed. I'm truly sorry if it sounded like I was shooting down your ideas. I only meant to discuss the issue, that we might all benefit from each other's opinions. Keep in mind too, I have never played with a WH list, and have only played against them maybe a dozen times (and that, a very Earthy WH list with Inquisitorial and IG elements). So I have no more claim to Truth than you do, nor would I even if I did have more experience. With something like your elemental breakdown, it's all opinion anyway.

[Toogeloo]

Just to clarify some more possible confusion as well.

 

VSS for Celestians and Seraphim should not only not contribute an extra Faith Point, but Martyrdom will not allow them to give a Faith Point back when they die as the rule for Martyrdom states you get back Faith in the amount the Squad/Model originally contributed. Thus, since the VSS did not contribute Faith (The Squad Did), you gain nothing for them dying.

[Melissia]

Okay, just finished, edited the other half of the post into it. This second half includes my opinion on dominians, seraphim, immolators (both as transports and as HS choices), exorcists, retributors, and Saint Celestine.

 

I'm kinda in a funk right now, not feeling so well physically speaking, so please offer opinions. If I made a mistake or am incoherent, then I want to know so I can fix it.

 

I'll work on the 1000 point list and explaination thereof soon....

[Inquisitor Fox]

I thought you were quite clear, well written for being in a funk!

 

One point with Retributors that I'm not sure you mentioned anywhere, is that you could take a squad of 6 with simulacrum imperialis, then give them a heavy flamer armed Immolator. Deploy the sisters as you would for foot slogging retributors in a fire support role in your back lines, then move the Immolator forward to attack the enemy, and provide armored transport for other units in your army after the first turn (often in an extraction maneuver). Doing it this way allows you to in effect get two heavy support choices for the same heavy support slot, a real bargain!

 

It should be noted that the price for this is 4 sisters, and the results in various Faith tests. Adding the simulacrum helps counteract this problem, but it doesn't eliminate it entirely.

[Melissia]

That's actually a fairly good idea. I'll have to edit that in.

[Melissia]

1000 Point Sample Flame Warrior Lists (And Explainations)

 

NOTE: All of these lists should be played around with, perhaps you can find something that better suits you. Just take them as possible ideas! I will of course mention a few tweaks I did when playing with the lists, but I'm not the end-all, be-all of Sisters strategists.

 

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Set one: Semi-Horde Sororitas

 

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List 1: Pure Mechanized

 

HQ: 238 Pts

Canoness W/Retinue: 238 Pts

-Canoness: Eviscerator, Bolt Pistol, Frag Nades, BoSL

-4 Celestians: Flamer, Heavy Flamer, Frag Nades

-Celestian VSS: BP+PW, Frag Nades

-Rhino: Smoke

 

Troops: 627 pts

 

Battle Sisters Squad: 209 Pts

-9 Battle Sisters: Flamer, Flamer

-Veteran: Combimelta, Book of St. Lucius

-Rhino: Smoke

 

Battle Sisters Squad: 209 Pts

-9 Battle Sisters: Flamer, Flamer

-Veteran: Combimelta, Book of St. Lucius

-Rhino: Smoke

 

Battle Sisters Squad: 209 Pts

-9 Battle Sisters: Flamer, Flamer

-Veteran: Combimelta, Book of St. Lucius

-Rhino: Smoke

 

Heavy Support: 135 Pts

 

Exorcist

 

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List 2 Seraphim Support

 

HQ: 107 Pts

Canoness: 107 Pts

-Canoness: BoSL, BP, Blessed Weapon, Frag Nades, Melta Bombs

 

Troops: 594 pts

 

Battle Sisters Squad: 198 Pts

-9 Battle Sisters: Flamer, Meltagun

-Veteran: Bolter, Book of St. Lucius

-Rhino: Smoke

 

Battle Sisters Squad: 198 Pts

-9 Battle Sisters: Flamer, Meltagun

-Veteran: Bolter, Book of St. Lucius

-Rhino: Smoke

 

Battle Sisters Squad: 198 Pts

-9 Battle Sisters: Flamer, Meltagun

-Veteran: Bolter, Book of St. Lucius

-Rhino: Smoke

 

Fast Attack: 144 pts

 

Seraphim Squad: 164 pts

-4 Seraphim, Meltabombs, 2xTL Hand Flamers

-1 Veteran, BP+PW, Meltabombs

 

Heavy Support: 135 Pts

 

Exorcist

 

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About the lists

 

Both of the lists are mechanized, but there is still a decided difference between the two. Each of these has 36 infantry models and one exorcist, at least five template weapons, and a decent smattering of anti-tank weaponry. Both lists should be able to handle most situations, and both lists have six faith points to spend.

 

List 1: Pure Mechanized

 

An entirely mechanized force, including a canoness with retinue. This is what I personally would want to use, but then I'm an odd person. The Exorcist will either be a fire magnet or be ignored. If it draws fire, then you are being given time to move up your infantry. If it is ignored, then pop smoke and start the exorcist missile barrages. The list oculd be tweaked to include heavy flamers on the normal BSS squads in place, or to give them heavy flamer/meltaguns and bolters on the sister superiors, depending on your playstyle and that of your opponent's.

 

List 2 Seraphim Support

 

If Seraphim excel at one thing, it is being an all around pain in the ass. The seraphim squad built here is a bit cheap, but can be quite effective-- melta bombs for the big ones, hand flamers and bolt pistols for the little ones, and a good amount of close ocmbat attacks for the inevitable assault (be sure to be the one to initiate the assault, you can always break out of it without fear later and the extra attack can really help). In most circumstances, one wants to deep strike this and the canoness together, and only part the two after they have gotten close enough that they can charge the nex turn-- with this build, the canoness is not as survivable due to only having a 3+ save. One could adjust the build to include a cloak of st aspira if one wants, as well as to include inferno pistols instead of hand flamers and meltabombs.

 

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Set two: The 'Ard Gurlz

 

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List 3: Dual Exorcists:

 

HQ: 290 Pts

Canoness W/Retinue: 290 Pts

-Canoness: Blessed Weapon, BP, BoSL, CoSA, Frag

-4 Celestians: Flamer, Heavy Flamer, Frag Nades

-Celestian VSS: BP, Eviscerator, Frag Nades

-Immolator: TL Heavy Flamers

 

Troops: 430 pts

 

Battle Sisters Squad: 215 Pts

-9 Battle Sisters: Flamer, Heavy Flamer

-Veteran: Combimelta, Book of St. Lucius

-Rhino: Smoke

 

Battle Sisters Squad: 215 Pts

-9 Battle Sisters: Flamer, Heavy Flamer

-Veteran: Combimelta, Book of St. Lucius

-Rhino: Smoke

 

Heavy Support: 270 Pts

 

Exorcist: 135 Pts

 

Exorcist: 135 Pts

 

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List 4: Angels of Doom

 

HQ: 146 Pts

Canoness: 146 Pts

-Canoness: Blessed Weapon, Plasma Pistol, CoSA, Mantle of Ophelia, Jump Pack, Frag Nades

 

Troops: 450 pts

 

Battle Sisters Squad: 225 Pts

-9 Battle Sisters: Flamer, Heavy Flamer

-Veteran: Combimelta, Book of St. Lucius

-Rhino: Smoke, Pintle SB

 

Battle Sisters Squad: 225 Pts

-9 Battle Sisters: Flamer, Heavy Flamer

-Veteran: Combimelta, Book of St. Lucius

-Rhino: Smoke, Pintle SB

 

Fast Attack: 404 Pts

 

Seraphim Squad: 202 Pts

-9 Seraphim, 2 Inferno Pistols

-Veteran, Plasma Pistol, Power Weapon, BoSL

 

Seraphim Squad: 202 Pts

-5 Seraphim, 2 Inferno Pistols

-Veteran, Plasma Pistol, Power Weapon, BoSL

 

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About the lists

 

Both of these lists sacrifice troop count to use other unit types. Both of these lists have different ways of dealing with vehicles than the horde lists, and different playstyles as well-- they still fit in with the flame warrior concept, however.

 

List 3: Dual Exorcists:

 

The underlying principle behind tis list is "One Excorcist is great, two must therefor be greater than great." The Exorcists rarely disappoint this rule either, but they need to be supported. This is a slightly more "earth" list than the others, but it still has enough models, faith points (five), and mobility to deliver the crushing blow to the enemy-- it just needs the help of its exorcists to do so. It also has the assistance of an Immolator tank as transport for the canoness instead of a rhino. The Immolator will probably be ignored as they try and take down the Exorcist, leaving you to drive by with TL Heavy Flamers (possibly including the Celestian Squad's Heavy Flamer ontop of that) and remind them why they shouldn't ignore the small fry, too. Another possiblity is to nix the celestian squad and go for a dominian squad instead. FOr the same price as the celestians, you can get four flamers, a combiflamer, and an immolator with TL HEavy Flamers to accompany your canoness w/blessed weapon, bolt pistol, frag nades, and cloak. Book could go on either the canoness or the superior. Likewise, one could spare points by giving the Canoness a combi-plasma or plasma pistol+power weapon.

 

List 4: Angels of Doom

 

For those that love Seraphim. The Seraphim in this army function as the anti-tank units. Each of them allows 10 krak grenade attacks (6+d6 penetration) in an assault, or attacking a vehicle with their inferno pistols instead. Rhinos are given a second storm bolter to increase both survivability and their ability to support the squads they transport (four R24" S4 AP5 attacks at BS4 is worth the ten points). The Seraphim and Canoness can also fire quite a few AP1-2 shots into a termie squad (others pointed this out to me, and I think it'll help this build). This list is a bit more of an "Air" army than the other lists, due to the mobility of the Seraphim squads. One could quite possibly tweak it to include three seraphim squads of Seraphim, each with two TL IPs, and a plasma pistol/PW and book on the veteran, but in my mind, this seems a bit more balanced, having a bit more firepower in the BSS squads, another member in each seraphim squad, and a better Canoness. This particular list has six faith points as well, and one could increase it to seven faith points if one had another seraphim squad (note that the seraphim VSS makes the squad under the effect of a simaculrum imperialis, and thus they could use all acts of faith a bit easier).

[Inq. Enmerich Von Vattle]

THANKS ^_^

 

I have everything needed to play all lists...still painting my second exorcist, but almost ready to go. My oponents are Ultra Marines, wolves, tyranids, tau, Imperial Guard and orcs.

 

Which of the list you will recomend for someone who has never played 40k....but it's a quick learner?