muzzyman1981 Posted November 22, 2008 Share Posted November 22, 2008 To start off, for those of us who have Army Builder will notice that the program does not allow Space Wolves to take Brother-Sgt Chronus for an armor choice. As we have went through this and determined that we SHOULD have that as a choice, albeit as an Iron Priest, I have been trying to make the case for them to include it in the Army Builder program to make it easier for those of us who have the program. I ask all of you who can to help me in this, I want to keep it nice...only comments that we can be proud of as Wolves. For those who wish to help me here is the link to the post I have started: http://support.wolflair.com/index.php?name...opic&t=8287 Thank you for all who choose to help me in this. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152912-need-help-from-the-long-fangs/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted November 22, 2008 Share Posted November 22, 2008 Sure, I quoted the page and rule.... IE right under the words "Special Rules" were it says hes an upgrade for a SM tank. Pg 80 of C:SM for reference. Those bloody idiots either cant read, or are being jerks. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152912-need-help-from-the-long-fangs/#findComment-1781922 Share on other sites More sharing options...
muzzyman1981 Posted November 22, 2008 Author Share Posted November 22, 2008 Thanks GM for the backup, I've been getting frustrated cause I know I saw that reference somewhere which is why I know why there isn't any argument on why we can't take him. My comments above your posts to try and convince I believe are all correct but with your information it is in the bag I think, now if we can get the AB Mod guy to look at it we should be able to get the change now that you have provided the key. Again I thank you for your help, and to any others...I think we have it but it can't hurt to get anything else, especially if we can get a friend or whatnot who does not play Space Wolves, preferable even Ultramarines or whatnot to help in this. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152912-need-help-from-the-long-fangs/#findComment-1781931 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted November 22, 2008 Share Posted November 22, 2008 It shouldnt be to hard.... despite some jerks, alot of people are willing to play a more balanced game. Nothing about kronus is gamebreaking at 70 pts, and only the landraiders and predators get all that much out of him.... Its not like say, hestan in a SoB army. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152912-need-help-from-the-long-fangs/#findComment-1781953 Share on other sites More sharing options...
muzzyman1981 Posted November 22, 2008 Author Share Posted November 22, 2008 I promised Max_D that this post wouldn't get out of hand, bashing the AB Mod people....however I have to agree with you, sometimes people can be jerks. So far the AB Mod guy and the other fellow were actually very decent. I suspect the....other guy.....is one of those people that would demand Space Wolves play with only the stuff in our Codex despite what the Codex and FAQs say. *EDIT* Ghaz is still trying to argue his point, this time in the actual bug report: http://www.ab40k.org/modules.php?name=Proj...;report_id=1044 *EDIT2* Well I've talked to the Mod person who is, I guess, handling this issue and he was using very convoluted arguments....to the point my brain was physically hurting and I couldn't follow what he was actually trying to say. The people there are refusing to use reason in trying to understand....basically he said it was because our FAQ says option and Chronus' description says upgrade therefore Space Wolves can't use him because he is an upgrade and not an option. On top of that he accused me of being a "rulez lawyer". He did say that he would bring it to the attention of the other people who help handle the Space Marine rules but I'm worried it will not get the fair attention that it deserves and we will be stuck with having to keep the check ourselves. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152912-need-help-from-the-long-fangs/#findComment-1781961 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted November 23, 2008 Share Posted November 23, 2008 Your link isnt working.... give me another one? If hes an upgrade, then hes an option that can be taken for something else... this is the nature of an upgrade. Where is this discussion? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152912-need-help-from-the-long-fangs/#findComment-1782267 Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPetersson Posted November 23, 2008 Share Posted November 23, 2008 basically he said it was because our FAQ says option and Chronus' description says upgrade therefore Space Wolves can't use him because he is an upgrade and not an option. And he calls you a rules lawyer??? But upgrade and option is in this case the same thing... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152912-need-help-from-the-long-fangs/#findComment-1782413 Share on other sites More sharing options...
muzzyman1981 Posted November 23, 2008 Author Share Posted November 23, 2008 The Mod guy is taking the literal definitions of the words and saying that an upgrade is a different thing from an option (although I may have found a loophole but I doubt he will listen). Second he is saying that because Chronus is not in any vehicle profile that he cannot be taken by Space Wolves , and when I pointed out that Servitors are in the same situation that they are not in the Techmarine's profile he said it was a different situation and then when I pointed out Sgt Telion wasn't in the Scout Squad's profile he went back to the literal definitions thing (after saying none of those could be taken by Space Wolves but could be taken by any Space Marine army that just uses the Space Marine Codex). He also tried the Special Character thing but after I reminded him that the SM Codex allows for "count as" units he stopped with that. http://www.ab40k.org/index.php (AB Bug Report Main page) He did say that he would bring the issue to the attention of the other people who work on the Space Marine issues but (and I'm sorry here Max_D, I hope this doesn't count as bashing) I'm afraid it won't get the fair treatment and debate it should receive. "I have just been informed by a friend that by the literal definitions of the words UPGRADE and OPTION we, Space Wolves, cannot take any UPGRADE/OPTION from the Space Marine Codex as, if you look at the profiles of the vehicles, the "options" fit the literal definition of an upgrade(To raise to a higher grade or standard: upgrading their military defenses. http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dicti.../entry/upgrade) It has been pointed out by Ghaz and Jlong you have to use the literal definitions of the words upgrade and option which make them 2 seperate things, the Space Wolves therefore must use the vehicle upgrade options from the Space Wolf Codex but still take the vehicles from the Space Marine Codex as stated SPECIFICALLY by the Space Wolf Codex." UGH I so want to post this...it shows the craziness of their arguments. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152912-need-help-from-the-long-fangs/#findComment-1782431 Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnlyInDeath Posted November 23, 2008 Share Posted November 23, 2008 Wow, that's the most retarted line of reasoning i've ever heard. First off, it's already been established by GW that we use the vehicle upgrades from C:SM. Secondly, if they want to get into literal definitions, definition of an option: taken from http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/option "THE POWER OR ACT OF CHOOSING". Vehicle upgrades are something that are CHOSEN for our vehicles. Here's another useage of the word here, UPGRADES are "OPTIONAL". They are not automatically included in the profile of the vehicle, and are therefore something that are taken as an option, as optional upgrades. It does not say in our FAQ that we can't take upgrades, it says that we use the options listed for all of the vehicles listed there. to argue that an upgrade is not an option for a vehicle is down right silly and defies any line of logic. To use the "literal" meaning of these words makes them inclusive, not mutually exclusive. Tell him that if we dont take the upgrade options from C:SM, then our LRC's are 10 points cheaper than anyone elses, our Pred Annihilators will be dirt cheap....What a dunce, seriously. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152912-need-help-from-the-long-fangs/#findComment-1782651 Share on other sites More sharing options...
muzzyman1981 Posted November 23, 2008 Author Share Posted November 23, 2008 Yeah, I am waiting on his response from the rest of the team plus I also emailed Games Workshop as to a ruling on the issue. But you are correct, if they come back with we can take the options but not the upgrades then I can and will throw the literal definitions up there, I don't want to but we have to have some compromise I think, and tell them that since we can't take upgrades and by the literal definition of the word upgrade then all the options are upgrades so we have to use the options from our Codex which will make our vehicles DIRT cheap. I don't want to, I want to settle this like adults or at least in a halfway mature manner but if they refuse to use common sense.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152912-need-help-from-the-long-fangs/#findComment-1782665 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vash113 Posted November 23, 2008 Share Posted November 23, 2008 And once again all this proves that "Common Sense" is not nearly as common as one might think. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152912-need-help-from-the-long-fangs/#findComment-1782698 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted November 23, 2008 Share Posted November 23, 2008 Remember Muzzy, these people are in no way official in any form. They arent GW rulemakers, they arent even lone wolf employees.... they are humans, and if they dont do this properly it can always be done by someone else as every single AB file is just someones scratch built representation. Wich is yet another reason why I dont buy that program. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152912-need-help-from-the-long-fangs/#findComment-1782772 Share on other sites More sharing options...
muzzyman1981 Posted November 23, 2008 Author Share Posted November 23, 2008 Well if they wrote the AB Creator docs in a way people could really understand them I would do it myself and be done with it but I can't make heads or tails of the stuff. I would gladly either send the file to whoever wants it or write up instructions on how to do it yourself, and I understand I would have to do it for each new release (unless it's put in the new release(s)). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152912-need-help-from-the-long-fangs/#findComment-1782786 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted November 23, 2008 Share Posted November 23, 2008 Well actually Im told you can make a seperate file.... 40kAB2 or something like that and put a single list in there.... and then update the rest, just using the one file for the one army. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152912-need-help-from-the-long-fangs/#findComment-1782791 Share on other sites More sharing options...
muzzyman1981 Posted November 23, 2008 Author Share Posted November 23, 2008 Well if I can ever figure AB Creator out (which is the datafile editor for Army Builder) I will make the update for us Space Wolves to use but they are complicated and I need to really sit down and figure out how they work....it would be helpful if they had a tutorial for me to go through. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152912-need-help-from-the-long-fangs/#findComment-1782873 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Betrayed_Spacewolf Posted November 23, 2008 Share Posted November 23, 2008 have yall tried to download the authoring kit from the lonewolf website? ive tried but had complications upon installation. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152912-need-help-from-the-long-fangs/#findComment-1782996 Share on other sites More sharing options...
muzzyman1981 Posted November 23, 2008 Author Share Posted November 23, 2008 Yeah I have the authoring kit installed but I can't figure out how to start in getting to add the Chronus upgrade (well actually a Iron Priest with Chornus' profile) into the armor selections for Space Wolves. I can't believe how it is so hard to understand how this Chronus thing works for other people. It seems pretty simple but those people on the Lone Wolf Dev forums seem determined unto death to make it complicated. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152912-need-help-from-the-long-fangs/#findComment-1783038 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Betrayed_Spacewolf Posted November 23, 2008 Share Posted November 23, 2008 well maybe were really just not supposed to get it. it doest really add much. unless its in a vindicator or whirlwind where scatter an average of 2-3 really helps. (average scatter distance is 7-5) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152912-need-help-from-the-long-fangs/#findComment-1783064 Share on other sites More sharing options...
muzzyman1981 Posted November 23, 2008 Author Share Posted November 23, 2008 I want to put it in a Vindicator but mainly it's on general principles that we should be able to get it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152912-need-help-from-the-long-fangs/#findComment-1783066 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Dammit Posted November 24, 2008 Share Posted November 24, 2008 Have you tried to call GW, if i'm not mistaking there is a number you can call with questions like this Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152912-need-help-from-the-long-fangs/#findComment-1783451 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted November 24, 2008 Share Posted November 24, 2008 The rulez boyz answers arent official though. It doesnt matter, theyve "ruled" and they say no, not in army builder. Apparently they think Chronus is a Codex chapter HQ choice, that happens to be assigned to a tank. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152912-need-help-from-the-long-fangs/#findComment-1783460 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantinel Posted November 24, 2008 Share Posted November 24, 2008 Hello, I know this is quite out of topic, but I don't want to make a new thread. Can a Rune Priest cast Storm Caller over a vehicle to grant it a Cover Save (or make it obscured)? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152912-need-help-from-the-long-fangs/#findComment-1783549 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted November 24, 2008 Share Posted November 24, 2008 *blink* That is really off the subject, but yes... he can as long as he has line of sight to it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152912-need-help-from-the-long-fangs/#findComment-1783589 Share on other sites More sharing options...
muzzyman1981 Posted November 24, 2008 Author Share Posted November 24, 2008 You know if he is a seperate unit from the tank (HQ or whatever) why isn't he counted towards the limit of HQ choices an army can take? As far as I have read it doesn't. (This is a genuine question) Where in the Codex does it say what type of choice they are (HQ, Elite, Troop, etc)? If he is one of those choices then I think he needs to be counted as such, otherwise he is not and therefore is strictly an upgrade or have I gotten it wrong? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152912-need-help-from-the-long-fangs/#findComment-1783608 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted November 24, 2008 Share Posted November 24, 2008 No, you got that right... he doesnt take up any slot whatsoever, or count as any slot *such as a command squad would*.... he just is a choice, an option, an upgrade. I pointed that out.... they dont care. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152912-need-help-from-the-long-fangs/#findComment-1783612 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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