Need help from the Long Fangs

[Jonny Wolf]

While you're at it, tell him Death Wind Missile launchers aren't a free up-grade either (it's free on the army builder program).

[Wolf89]

This stuff still? I thought this was settled already?...

 

Chronus CAN be taken, no doubt about it. If you really need to talk to someone at GW to help you out, there's a guy that you can email. His name is John Spencer and he can be contacted via the email askyourquestion@games-workshop.com.

 

People have been getting mixed answers to the same question from him, but it's not often, and he has a reason for changing his mind (usually from talking to other's at the company to get a general consensus).

 

Just remember that these aren't in any way FINAL. They might just be able to help sway a TO's mind when it comes to a tournament.

[muzzyman1981]

I just got an email back from J. Spencer and he says we cannot take Chronus in a Space Wolf army (doesn't explain why not though).

 

I do have some more info that I think may be valuable in bringing the light to others:

 

Check the definition of Unique Characters, they are classified into two groups: Independent and Upgrade characters. Since it says under Chronus' profile box for Unit Composition - 1 (Unique) we can assume he is one of those two things. Under Marneus Calgar, Capt Sicarus, and all the other's named in the HQ section it gives ALL of them the special rule of Independant Character so we can assume they fall under the Independant Character half of the definition of Unique Characters. Now to the second type of Unique Character, the Upgrade Character....these are the units with the 1 (Unique) tag but don't have the Independant Character special rule.

 

I will stop here for the time being to see what people say about this portion of my point.

 

By the way Warhammer 40K 5th Ed Rulebook and Space Marine Codex are where you can find the actual wording in print, namely (pg 47 & 49 for the definitions of Independant, Upgrade, and Unique Characters.....pg 143 for Chronus' profile)

[The_Betrayed_Spacewolf]

i never really thought he belonged to the wolfs even as iron priest vestus or wolf guard tanker. he just doesnt add enough to cause all this broo haha to our already formidable army.

[OnlyInDeath]

Ok, after reading the C:SM, i can see the argument as far as why we can't (though I dont agree with the wording they used). There are listed optional upgrades to every single vehicle in the codex. Chronus is a completely separate entry and would essentially be a character bought to upgrade a vehicle, as opposed to a vehicle upgrade. He isnt a normal option for upgrades, and us wolves are limited to the "normal" options on a vehicle. Just as we can't take any of the other special characters, either as intended or the "nillad" version, I cant see us being able to take chronos. Take the 70 pts and invest it in the army as a whole instead. Better spent 70 pts than just +1 to BS for your vehicle anyway (think a crapload of plasma pistols across the GH's of the army, yay!)

[Grey Mage]

Sorry but what you said just doesnt make any sense to me man. Try again? Theres no differentiation between a "normal" upgrade and an "unusual" upgrade..... just because space wolves dont get holofields doesnt mean they arent an upgrade.... they just arent are upgrade.

 

I understand hes a completely seperate entry, but then smoke launchers, extra armor, and HK missiles are all also given seperate entries for their descriptions in the codex.

[muzzyman1981]

Well also part of their argument was that he is a seperate unit from the tank, he just upgrades the tank after he is bought. If that's the case then he should count agaisnt the Force Organization Chart a Heavy Support choice...but he doesn't in Army Builder (which I know may not be right but if it's what they want to say he is then they need to follow all of the rules not just some of them).

 

As you said OID, I understand where they are coming from....I am not so bull-headed to admit they have a point, however weak it is....but I believe the FOR stance has a much stronger point and if he is a legal Space Wolf army option then we should have the ABILITY to take him.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

just my .02 cents, i would say we space wolves do NOT get chronus. as our faq doesnt specifically mention him he is off limits. he is a benefit only gained if you are playing the Codex Ultramarine...**ahem** i mean Codex Space Marine.

 

that said, i would love him in a leman russ exterminator.

 

wolf lord kieran

[muzzyman1981]

Well thats the trick isn't it.....the FAQ was out BEFORE the new Space Marine Codex so of course he wouldn't be in it. Once they update the FAQ to include things that may or may not be taken from the new SM Codex then we have to look at the rules in a fair and objective way. Would it really be so horrible if Space Wolves got Chronus (well, actually it would be his profile and the model to be used as a counted as thing)? It wouldn't make or break anything....it's not like we would get the super duper deluxe Turbo Engine with 400mm smooth bore cannon and Rail Gun that can poke holes in any armor....we would only be getting the same thing another Chapter would get.

 

As the Space Marine Codex states, whos to say that someone from a different Chapter wouldn't have an equal to any of the characters? It's not like we are replacing someone with Chronus either.

[the jeske]

As the Space Marine Codex states, whos to say that someone from a different Chapter wouldn't have an equal to any of the characters?

:woot: aha so there is no more space wolfs or blood angels , just grey space marines and red space marines and black/white space marines etc .

totally agree with you here . no sense in having different stuff for different armies . also arent the spiky space marines marines too ? some hvy weapon terminators would be cool for a grey space marine force or maybe some lash from the spiky spacer marines , would work great in an assault based red or grey space marines army . And just think of the cool coversion you could do with them .

[The_Betrayed_Spacewolf]

unfortunatly he has some points

[muzzyman1981]

Whatever happened to doing a counted as? You can't tell me somewhere in the Space Wolves Iron Priests, there isn't someone who couldn't compare to Chronus' stats...heck a Iron Priest has better stats. It's not like I'm asking for ALL the named characters.

 

As for making us "Grey Space Marines" who said I was asking for ALL the characters, I just want the ability to make one of our vehicles a bit better. Is it wrong to find wording in the Codexes and rulebook that gives some good support in helping with that? Until we get a new FAQ I would have to say that the wording supports the position. When we get a FAQ and it says no then no big deal we are no worse off than we are now, at least in that respect.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

The problem as i see it is the wording isnt definitive enough, so it can be twisted to show any point of view needed. Taking advantage of that (GWs stupidity...or maybe they didnt think SW players would take it that far) poor wording to gain an advantage in a game is what drove me from playing 40k when 4th edition came out.

 

from what you are saying you just want to cherry pick the things you want from the Ultramarine Codex and ignore the rest. this game doesnt (and rightfully shouldnt) work that way.

 

if you want chronus, become a ultra fan boy. if you want awesome, stick to the Wolves.

 

wolf lord kieran

[muzzyman1981]

Since when is it wrong to try to be the best? What is wrong with saying that one of our Iron Priests could be a bad mofo in a tank, heck I would say the Tank Commander rule fits the Space Wolves far more than it would the Ultramarines or any other chapter. Using the rules as they are written has always been done and it will continue far in the future. The rules may not be "Space Wolves can/cannot use Brother-Sgt Chronus" but I would have to say that what IS there points more towards us being able to take him.

 

As for "cherry picking" if I was cherry picking I would try to be getting half the friggin Space Marine Codex...finding ways to get Combat Squads and all that crap. Fact is, first of all I don't want them because I am a Wolf through and through, second is the rules are pretty clear on the rest of the stuff. Don't let your Space Wolf fan boy-ism blind you to all points of view, the Wolves are the best and should get the best whenever we can (especially since we haven't really got crap in awhile and still manage to kick as much or more butt than the other armies out there).

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

i dont disagree that the SW could have the equivalent of Chronus in the Iron Priest ranks, but as our book is so old that we have to live with a few minuses, this being one of them.

 

why do you want combat sqauds? we can min-max our squads with full weapon options, unlike marines who need to max out their squad to get some options.

so since the rules are clear on some things, you wont take them. but when a small problem comes up you are quite ready to take advantage of it? very weak.

 

Space Wolf fan boyism? i actually played DA, Codex Marines and Guard. I just know the best, and take our hits with the good. i dont need to loop hole my way for a win.

 

wolf lord kieran

[muzzyman1981]

I said I COULD try to get them but I don't want them cause I am a Wolf.....in any case so far anyone who makes up the rules won't let us take Chronus anyways but as I always say, any battle worth fighting is worth fighting with everything you have, I will continue to want Hlrof Steelskin (the bad mofo of a Iron Priest with Chronus' profile) until I hear it one way or the other in clear concise wording.

[Grey Mage]

Kieran, Im not asking for much, I just want an actual rules reason that we cant take him. If I can get a rules quote that spells it out, even if it takes referencing a couple of entries between the three relevant books, Id be fine.

 

Problem is from where Im reading it we can take him, RAW. I want a RAW reason that we cant. Give me that and Ill bow out and never bring this up again.

 

But Im tired of being accused of cheese by people. It seemed a perfectly reasonable assumption at the time given the FAQ, the SW and SM codices and my knowledge of the game. For 70 points what he does isnt that spectacular, and as an infantryman his biggest value is my to my opponent when he kills him. I just want to know where it stands.

 

So please, shut up with the character evaluations and give me some RAW.

 

@ Jeske.... and so a Wolf Lord isnt an equivilant to a SM commander? Grey Hunters arent an equivilant of a Tac Squad? Believe it or not we are space marines in gray. Our tanks match up with theirs, our weapons match up with theirs.... and Ive had a number of comments that our termies are to much like chaos boys. Just because we share rules with someone doesnt mean were a drawn in photocopy of them, and for you to make such a statement is kind of offensive man.

[muzzyman1981]

Well believe it or not the Ghaz has did it again....in AB it has our Shotgun being only S3, I asked why and would you guess where of all places Ghaz took his quote as to why we only get the S3 Shotgun? The Dark Angels FAQ.

 

I will just quickly mention that it's kind of insulting that the answer to my post was answered with a Dark Angels bit of W40K stuff, but it's doubly so that it's wrong. Honestly, I'm not sure this guy has a Space Wolf Codex.

 

At least as far as I know we get the S4 Shotgun correct?

[Grey Mage]

We absolutely do.... insert page 14.

[muzzyman1981]

Well my concern with them is that they would say the only reference to the actual profile (with the strength) is in the Summary....I want to make sure my point is well understood.

 

I know pg 14 says we take our weapon's profiles from the Space Marine Codex (not in those exact words obviously) but they will argue that its not in the armory section and the only other references are in the Scout description and in the Summary (to which I would say that its a SUMMARY which takes the profile of the weapon from the Space Marine Codex)....anything else that needs to be said or in a more concise manner?

 

Remember I don't exactly have all that great of a relationship with Ghaz....

[Grey Mage]

1) Ask how the codex dark angels has anything to do with us?

2) Check page 2.

3) Page 14.

4) get a new program, like capmacs excell.... these people seem just as confused and odd as I was told. I always figured it was exagerrated.... *sighs*

[muzzyman1981]

Well I just received an email from J. Spencer from the Games Workshop question email thing, and he also says we use the Space Marine Codex...hopefully these will get it changed. I like AB for the most part but they are too literal in their rulings I think. Also as I've said before, I wonder if they have the Space Wolf codex sometimes =P

 

I can't believe Ghaz refuses to see reason. He still refuses to allow us to use the Space Marine Codex for weapon's profiles in the Army Builder Data Files.

 

http://support.wolflair.com/index.php?name...p;p=28741#28741

 

1) Yes, the FAQ does apply. Just because it's from the Dark Angels FAQ doesn't mean you can ignore it. It goes to show GW's intentions in cases where codices have identical items with different stats and that is you use the rules from your own codex.

 

2) This is not one of the times you use Codex Space Marines as Codex Space Wolves already has the stats. You only use Codex Space Marines when specifically directed to do so.

 

3) Roolzboyz are NOT official. Only the rules and GW's official FAQs are taken into consideration when making a decision.

 

That is his exact post.

[Bran Scalphunter]

I've been tracking this thread for a while and now I figure I'll chip in. Muzzy, please relay this to Ghaz as I don't feel like creating an account just to try to get an idiot to understand something- if I did, I'd try to teach an Ork proppa English.

 

"Ghaz, as a veteran Space Wolf player of 8 years, I find it astounding that you are so anal in your view of Read as Written (RAW). By the fact that you will not allow Space Wolves access to wargear and weaponry that is taken directly from Codex: Space Marines. By your logic, Wolves are not able to use the new Storm Shields that grant a 3+ Invulnerable save against Shooting and Close Combat, nor can we use Drop Pod Assault, as our Codex specifically states how a Space Wolf army uses Drop Pods. Our Codex tells us to refer to Codex: Space Marines for weaponry and wargear unless it has a specific entry in the Space Wolf Codex. Or should we still use 3rd Edition rules for Assault Cannons that can Jam!, even though we would have to find a 3rd Edition Rule book just to use them?

 

Sir, it is my opinion that you are a jackarse and should pull you head out of said bodily orifice before it gets stuck and start writing the rules as Games Workshop releases them.

 

Sincerely,

 

Bran Scalphunter of the Bolter and Chainsword, Space Wolf Rulez Pack member"

 

Sorry Max/Rags/Littlebitz if this is offensive to you, but this Ghaz fellow is really working on my nerves.

[muzzyman1981]

I will relay it after I see his next post (if he decides to post again), otherwise I will post it sometime tomorrow.

 

Btw, if we were to use just our Codex for our wargear that means we get +1 Attack for having a Powerfist and CCW/Bolt Pistol combo wooohooo (j/k). The reason he is being so strict (to be tactful) is because he has a background in legal review but apparently that means you must cut out the part of your brain that uses common sense. In any case, EVERYONE except this guy agrees we use the Space Marine Codex, so I'm guessing he doesn't actually have a Space Wolf Codex (either paperback or PDF) since his POV is taken from the Dark Angels FAQ (makes you wonder doesn't it?).

[Bran Scalphunter]

... *thinks hard for several minutes*...

 

The Dress Marines have infiltrated Army Builder too?! Arrrgh! I call a Great Hunt to purge AB of all Dress Marine taint lest it go over and strike down nilla Marines and my belurved Orkz! :D

 

To the Crusaders my Wolves! Charge! :o