muzzyman1981 Posted November 27, 2008 Author Share Posted November 27, 2008 LOL Well I just talked to an actually Data File Author for AB and he says that they were going to agree with Ghaz but that it didn't sound quite right, so they are going to pour over their copies of the SW Codex and ask around and see what they come up with, we can only hope that they don't get fooled. I just like using AB cause it's simple and it's already out there, they just need to be a little less....strict (see Max I can be tactful =P). My main thing with the whole Shotgun thing is being told that we have to follow another army's FAQ. I can see what his argument was at the time, but when you look at the whole of things then you would easily see that things don't add up. Sometimes you have to deal with these things on the route to greatness. As I said before, I think it just smacks of a personal thing...either against the army (it's a coincident that the FAQ he chose to use was Dark Angels I'm sure....=P) or against myself due to the whole Chronus thing. Either way I will continue the fight to get the Space Wolves the proper wargear and weapons and everything else we get in Army Builder, even if sometimes I lose a few battles...I will fight those battles as well as I can. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152912-need-help-from-the-long-fangs/page/3/#findComment-1787271 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted November 27, 2008 Share Posted November 27, 2008 Unfortunately PF, CF, and TH are all taken from the BRB.... and thus well still have to use them, even if theses guys were official. Remember that, these are the opinions of 1-4 volunteers..... they dont play a number of the armies out there Im sure and may just not care as much..... or perhaps they simply feel that anyone who isnt working on their beloved project couldnt possibly see all the angles like they could. *sighs* Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152912-need-help-from-the-long-fangs/page/3/#findComment-1787412 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted November 27, 2008 Share Posted November 27, 2008 @Grey Mage unfountunately, as i already said, the loose wording of Chronus makes both sides have valid points. I personally wouldnt take him, as i (1) dont think we need him and (2) wouldnt feel right taking a ultramarine character. and place him in a LRE and see him rock the crap out of the Tank. then he is worth every point. this discussion reminds me of an arguement i had with a bible-thumper a few years back. i pushed them to the breaking point by repeatedly telling them that until they can factually prove the existence of God, he doesnt exist (IMO). here you guys are going to use something that seems sketchy because i cannot prove you wrong using RAW, rather than RAI. oh well. the odds of us ever playing are slim to none, so play your wolves anyway you'd like. just dont be too suprised at the results. @muzzyman we use the power fists as per the rulebook as they are in italics. the only non italic weapons in our book is the frost blade and the rune weapon/staff wolf lord kieran Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152912-need-help-from-the-long-fangs/page/3/#findComment-1787573 Share on other sites More sharing options...
muzzyman1981 Posted November 27, 2008 Author Share Posted November 27, 2008 I know we use the Powerfists as per the rulebook but according to this guy Ghaz we use everything in our Codex unless specifically saying otherwise, in the SW Codex it says under the Powerfist description that we get +1 A from having 2 one-handed weapns (except for the Lightning Claws). I am not advocating this, I am merely stating a point.....if we ignore what is reality, then everyone is going to end up confused and not knowing what the heck to do during a game. Just because we have a Codex, does not make it the end all, be all thing he is trying to make it to be. *EDIT* Well it seems Army Builder Data File Authors won't let us have the new shotgun profiles as well due to a technicality (the fact he shotgun is not in the Armory list and therefore not in italics). I however edited the Data File myself and gave the Space Wolf Scouts the Str 4 Shotgun since everyone BUT the Army Builder Data File guys say we use them. I can send my file to anyone who needs it so they don't have to go through the whole shpiel of getting it in the AB themselves. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152912-need-help-from-the-long-fangs/page/3/#findComment-1787688 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted November 27, 2008 Share Posted November 27, 2008 As stated... they are just volunteers, I think its best to ignore them. As for chronus, I have no real intentions of using him.... especially seeing as hell just get taken away sometime. *shrugs* Still, I like to get to a settled point on this at some time. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152912-need-help-from-the-long-fangs/page/3/#findComment-1787765 Share on other sites More sharing options...
muzzyman1981 Posted November 27, 2008 Author Share Posted November 27, 2008 I think I've got how to add and remove stuff from AB anyways so as I find stuff we don't or can't have then I will update my AB....such as the Shotgun thing. What gets my goat the most is their inability to look at things in a subjective point of view, they did after all VOLUNTEER to keep the Data Files updated and accurate but that doesn't mean they have to nit-pick...the Chronus thing I can understand as it can be a very grey issue but the Shotgun thing? C'mon.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152912-need-help-from-the-long-fangs/page/3/#findComment-1787791 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tuzgai Posted November 27, 2008 Share Posted November 27, 2008 The Chronus thing doesn't really seem like a grey area at all. We're supposed to use options as listed in the various vehicle profiles in the SM codex. Chronus is not listed as an option for any of the vehicles listed in the FAQ. He has an entry separate from the vehicles, and in order to use him, you have to use pages for things that aren't actually listed in any vehicle entries. Since this is the case, you shouldn't be able to use Chronus. I understand the whole idea of Space Wolves possibly having an equivalent somewhere and that you're only choosing one thing to try to pull out of their codex, and that thing is relatively well-balanced. However, none of those are actually rules arguments. I feel that trying to take an upgrade that isn't listed in the vehicles' profiles as an option is a stretch. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152912-need-help-from-the-long-fangs/page/3/#findComment-1787889 Share on other sites More sharing options...
muzzyman1981 Posted November 27, 2008 Author Share Posted November 27, 2008 To say it again, none of the vehicles have it in their profiles so does that mean that no one gets to use Chronus since it's not actually in the vehicle profiles? If he isn't in the vehicle profiles and he's not an upgrade that means he is his own unit....which means he needs to be counted on the Force Organization Chart as a Heavy Support choice, one or the other. Either he is an upgrade that can't be counted against the FOC or he is his own unit which means he has to be.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152912-need-help-from-the-long-fangs/page/3/#findComment-1787911 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Bjoern Posted November 27, 2008 Share Posted November 27, 2008 If he isn't in the vehicle profiles and he's not an upgrade that means he is his own unit....which means he needs to be counted on the Force Organization Chart as a Heavy Support choice, one or the other. Either he is an upgrade that can't be counted against the FOC or he is his own unit which means he has to be.... Not necessary. To give you two examples C:BA and C:DA the Techmarine. You need to pay the points but he doesn´t take a slot in the FOC. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152912-need-help-from-the-long-fangs/page/3/#findComment-1787932 Share on other sites More sharing options...
muzzyman1981 Posted November 27, 2008 Author Share Posted November 27, 2008 Why not? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152912-need-help-from-the-long-fangs/page/3/#findComment-1787939 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Bjoern Posted November 27, 2008 Share Posted November 27, 2008 Why not? The Rules in both ´dexes says that you can buy one Techmarines for every elite and/or heavy support vehicle (no dedicated transports) you choose. The Techmarine doesn´t take a FOC slot but will be treated in all other ways as a seperate elite choise. Even that GW hasn´t written it that way in the entry of Chronus doesn´t mean that it doesn´t work that way for him. Let´s face the truth, we´re talking about GW. So don´t expect logical thinking. But i think you´re right, we should have access to Chronus. See C:SM p.89 Special Rule Tank Commander. The first clause. From my understanding i would say he´s an option for a vehicle. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152912-need-help-from-the-long-fangs/page/3/#findComment-1787971 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tuzgai Posted November 28, 2008 Share Posted November 28, 2008 To say it again, none of the vehicles have it in their profiles so does that mean that no one gets to use Chronus since it's not actually in the vehicle profiles? If he isn't in the vehicle profiles and he's not an upgrade that means he is his own unit....which means he needs to be counted on the Force Organization Chart as a Heavy Support choice, one or the other. Either he is an upgrade that can't be counted against the FOC or he is his own unit which means he has to be.... As was stated earlier, not all choices are actually listed on the FOC. There are a number of exceptions, including techmarines in other books, and our own Wolf Guard, which count as a single elite choice. What I'm saying is that we can't use Chronus, because we only have access to the vehicle entries in C:SM. Vanilla players have access to the rest of the book, including the Chronus entry, which is listed separately from the vehicles and is not named in any of the vehicle entries. Of course vanilla players can use their entire book, but why should we be able to venture further than the listed entries? Each vehicle entry has a clearly labeled list of options. Chronus is not one of them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152912-need-help-from-the-long-fangs/page/3/#findComment-1788500 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted November 28, 2008 Share Posted November 28, 2008 We also have access to their wargear, their armor, and their scouts weapon options. We get ALOT from the codex SM. Chronus IS a clearly listed vehicle upgrade.... an option for many vehicles. Therefore chronus by the faq is one of them. Saying that hes in there codex and thus we cant take them doesnt work..... we take so much already. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152912-need-help-from-the-long-fangs/page/3/#findComment-1788826 Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Brother Sargent Tiberius- Posted November 28, 2008 Share Posted November 28, 2008 I've been tracking this thread for a while and now I figure I'll chip in. Muzzy, please relay this to Ghaz as I don't feel like creating an account just to try to get an idiot to understand something- if I did, I'd try to teach an Ork proppa English. an ork proper english?????? good luck... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152912-need-help-from-the-long-fangs/page/3/#findComment-1789395 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tuzgai Posted November 29, 2008 Share Posted November 29, 2008 We also have access to their wargear, their armor, and their scouts weapon options. We get ALOT from the codex SM. Chronus IS a clearly listed vehicle upgrade.... an option for many vehicles. Therefore chronus by the faq is one of them. Saying that hes in there codex and thus we cant take them doesnt work..... we take so much already. And we're instructed to use those things either in the codex or the FAQ. Saying that we already take so much isn't a real argument - why shouldn't we also get Vulkan and Shrike? They're also in the SM codex. Every Space Marine tank can also be given a storm bolter, and always for the same price. Yet the storm bolter is listed in each tank's entry as an option. Chronus is special, has his own entry, and is not listed under the various tank profiles. All I'm saying is that the Chronus entry is outside of the wargear and vehicle entries. We've been instructed to use the wargear and listings for vehicles, we haven't been told to use stuff outside of that. I understand that the rest of you disagree with me on this, so I'll leave it at that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152912-need-help-from-the-long-fangs/page/3/#findComment-1789442 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted November 29, 2008 Share Posted November 29, 2008 Hes an upgrade for a vehicle... an option. Ill quote the FAQ for you. "Space Wolves vehicles: Use the point costs and rules from Codex: Space Marines for Dreadnoughts, Land Speeders, Attack Bikes, Whirlwinds, Predators, Land Raiders and Vindicators. All of the different variants and options available to these units in a Space Marine army are also available to the Space Wolves. The exception to this is the Venerable Dreadnoughts, which must be chosen from the Space Wolves army list (as detailed on page 7), and not the Space Marines army list." Emphasis mine. Note that he is an option "in a space marine army" for its vehicles. He is therefor an option for a spacewolf army, by the RAW above. Unless youd like to argue that space marines dont have the option to use them on their vehicles? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152912-need-help-from-the-long-fangs/page/3/#findComment-1789836 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted November 30, 2008 Share Posted November 30, 2008 i hate to admit i when i am wrong, but after reading the crap out of the SM book, W40k book, Wolves book and all the FAQs i cant find anything rules wise AGAINST taking chronus in a wolf tank. as the rules are stated right now, he is completely legal in a SW army. wolf lord kieran Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152912-need-help-from-the-long-fangs/page/3/#findComment-1790375 Share on other sites More sharing options...
muzzyman1981 Posted November 30, 2008 Author Share Posted November 30, 2008 Try telling that to the AB Data File Authors, the GW "Rulez" guy, and the TO for my tourney I'm gonna be in. =P It seems pretty simple to us that he can be taken but for some reason everyone else is making it complicated therefore impossible to tell fact from fiction and the truth of things. *EDIT* Interesting side note, I just had someone on the 40K Online forums tell me that the German FAQ can not be counted when using that to show that we take the Rhino and Razorback from the Space Marine Codex. The reason being is that the German FAQ is dated from Sept 2008 so it isn't "relevant to the newest codex for the space marine". Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152912-need-help-from-the-long-fangs/page/3/#findComment-1790484 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Octavulg Posted November 30, 2008 Share Posted November 30, 2008 Your whole argument depends on if Chronus is an upgrade or an option. His listing says he's an upgrade. The rules say you can get options. Options are clearly denoted in each vehicle's listing. Chronus is not stated to be an option, errataed to be an option, or listed as an option. He is an upgrade. The two are not synonymous. While a nitpicky argument, it is 100% consistent with RAW. And, I think, with RAI. A rare two-fer. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152912-need-help-from-the-long-fangs/page/3/#findComment-1790567 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted November 30, 2008 Share Posted November 30, 2008 All upgrades are options... if they werent optional, they wouldnt be an "upgrade" theyd be standard equipment. Anything you are not required to have but CAN have is an option.... he is an option. If you can show some precidents were option and upgrade in the case of vehicles is not interchangeable Id like to see them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152912-need-help-from-the-long-fangs/page/3/#findComment-1790624 Share on other sites More sharing options...
muzzyman1981 Posted November 30, 2008 Author Share Posted November 30, 2008 Exactly, I believe as far as Warhammer 40k is concerned option and upgrade are interchangable however even if you go by the literal definitions then, as Grey Mage pointed out, an upgrade is an option or else it would be in the Wargear section of the vehicle profile. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152912-need-help-from-the-long-fangs/page/3/#findComment-1790807 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Octavulg Posted November 30, 2008 Share Posted November 30, 2008 Except the Wargear section of the vehicle profile is the Options section. I'll dig around a little for precedent. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152912-need-help-from-the-long-fangs/page/3/#findComment-1790983 Share on other sites More sharing options...
muzzyman1981 Posted November 30, 2008 Author Share Posted November 30, 2008 No Wargear is MANDATORY and the Options section is, well, optional.... things you can buy (or upgrade) for the vehicle. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152912-need-help-from-the-long-fangs/page/3/#findComment-1790987 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Octavulg Posted November 30, 2008 Share Posted November 30, 2008 Frankly, you should be using 4e C:SM in any case. That's the one your FAQ clearly refers to (note the comments about how many rules editions have come out, etc). Otherwise, logically, all your opponents should use the C:SM FAQ currently up. The one from the last codex. And you should (somehow) use the Mixed Armor rules, too. Otherwise, you're using a ruling from a codex that no longer exists for a codex that was not conceived of when that FAQ was published. Really, I'd say that FAQ's more or less obsolete, and you should use your Codex for the stuff that isn't errata. Otherwise you're using an obsolete codex with an obsolete FAQ...and that's nasty (for all involved). In any case, any tournament organizer can do whatever they want in regard to GW rulings - they're no longer official. They're just "studio house rules" *spit*. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152912-need-help-from-the-long-fangs/page/3/#findComment-1791092 Share on other sites More sharing options...
muzzyman1981 Posted November 30, 2008 Author Share Posted November 30, 2008 Ok the whole 4e thing, then EVERY Space Marine must use the 4e Space Marine Codex.....the FAQ nor our Codex states a specific Codex to use, therefore we use the most current version. This is just another example of making an already complicated game that much more complicated. Keep it simple, use the current versions of the FAQ and Codex.....yes, sometimes you will run into snags (Chronus) but it's the simplest way to do things. If GW wants Space Wolves to use the 4e Codex then they need to specifically come out and say so, but they haven't so as usual you use the latest edition. The next step in that line of logic is Space Wolves have to use the 3e rulebook as well and we have to find any FAQs from that time period as well. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152912-need-help-from-the-long-fangs/page/3/#findComment-1791101 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.