Need help from the Long Fangs

[Grey Mage]

Frankly, you should be using 4e C:SM in any case. That's the one your FAQ clearly refers to (note the comments about how many rules editions have come out, etc).

 

Otherwise, logically, all your opponents should use the C:SM FAQ currently up. The one from the last codex. And you should (somehow) use the Mixed Armor rules, too.

 

Otherwise, you're using a ruling from a codex that no longer exists for a codex that was not conceived of when that FAQ was published. Really, I'd say that FAQ's more or less obsolete, and you should use your Codex for the stuff that isn't errata. Otherwise you're using an obsolete codex with an obsolete FAQ...and that's nasty (for all involved).

 

In any case, any tournament organizer can do whatever they want in regard to GW rulings - they're no longer official. They're just "studio house rules" *spit*.

 

You know I have a hard time believeing this vulg. The space wolf faq came out after the new space marine codex and you dont think they intended it to work for the new one? Get real. As for our opponents.... why do they care about the C:SM faq? After all theyre not using it at all.

 

AND Ill note we do use the mixed armor rules..... just like it says to in the FAQ.

 

And finally if you think the space wolf codex doesnt exist Id ask you not to post here.... obviously theres no point in you talking about an imaginairy book.

 

Since the publication of Codex: Space Wolves, the

Warhammer 40,000 rulebook and a new

Codex: Space Marines have been released (you

will need both to play a Space Wolves army). This

document explains how to use the Space Wolves

in conjunction with these books.

 

OR perhaps youd like to read what it says in the actual faq from GW. Its entitled "Space Wolves Faq Fifth Edition".

 

EDIT: Ive decided to mention this briefly here because I dont think I can actually report you octavulg, but calling the codex the people on this forum use imaginairy is perhaps the most insulting thing Ive heard here in the fang, ever. Blood Angels have a white dwarf article and people dont even say that. Uncalled for.

[Octavulg]

Not at all. A Codex exists which can supplant that FAQ. Therefore, use that.

 

However, for the Space Wolves, an FAQ does not exist telling them to use the newer codex. It tells them to use Codex: Space Marines; and it refers to the 4e version. Added to this, all GW rulings are now house rules, and can be totally ignored if desired.

 

Tell me, will you be using the Mixed Armor rules from the 40k main rulebook? Does No Matter the Odds still not apply (seriously, does it?).

 

Honestly, in this circumstance, you're best off ignoring everything (IMO) that does not directly involve Codex: Space Wolves. Especially anything telling you to refer to another rulebook or codex. But that doesn't matter.

 

Chronus is simply not a listed option for any of the Space Marine vehicles named. He is a separate choice who starts as commander of an SM tank. Although he is purchased as an option, he is not actually an option himself - he's a separate choice.

 

Put it this way: you buy Chronus and put him in a tank. You do not buy a tank and then buy Chronus for it. He can switch tanks from game to game. He is not an option for a tank. He is something you buy if you have tanks (though you don't need them to buy him, I suppose). You do not purchase him for a tank. While he is bought as an upgrade, he is not bought as an upgrade for any particular vehicle and thus is not an option for any particular tank. And thus, you cannot have him.

[Grey Mage]

It doesnt.... and so is dropped. It even says that IN OUR FAQ. It says IN OUR FAQ that we use the mixed armor rules from the main rule book and I do. If youll kindly go to the GW website and Read the new faq before posting again i twould save me alot of frustration and you alot of wasted words.

 

And Ill put it this way: I buy extra armor and put it on a tank, I can put it on any tank I like.... its something I buy if I buy tanks (though I dont need to buy it Im sure). Sorry, but your stretching, and I cant take you seriously when you say Im using an imaginairy book and are then refering to a FAQ that is no longer current.

 

Or to put it another way... the FAQ says we can take their options... it says nothing about wether that option has to be specific to that tank... just that it has to be an option for that tank.

 

So we tank take extra armor on a speeder... its not an option a space marine playe rwould have.... but we can buy it, and chronus, for a vindicator.... just like a Space marine player.

 

"Space Wolves vehicles: Use the point costs and

rules from Codex: Space Marines for

Dreadnoughts, Land Speeders, Attack Bikes,

Whirlwinds, Predators, Land Raiders and

Vindicators. All of the different variants and

options available to these units in a Space Marine

army are also available to the Space Wolves. The

exception to this is the Venerable Dreadnoughts,

which must be chosen from the Space Wolves

army list (as detailed on page 7), and not the

Space Marines army list."

 

Emphasis mine.

[muzzyman1981]

Octavulg, you are wrong....you cannot buy Chronus first BECAUSE he cannot be used WITHOUT a tank. You buy the TANK first and then buy Chronus as an upgrade to the TANK...what you are saying is that Chronus is a model that CHOOSES to have a tank and the player using him doesn't want a tank doesn't have to have one. You buy the TANK first, then get Chronus for the tank.

 

He doesn't NEED to be listed in EVERY tank profile because he is already described as being an option for every tank, where as a storm bolter (for example) does not have that in its wargear description so it needs to be listed in the vehicle profiles.

 

As for the FAQ again, you are making something that is really quite simple out to be a very complicated matter. Every army uses the most current version of the rulebook, Codex, and FAQ/Errata that applies to it. If you can point to something in print that says that an army must use the codex and all period FAQs then be my guest and I will accept it, but until then every army uses the most current version of the publication that is relevant to that army.

[Octavulg]

It doesnt.... and so is dropped. It even says that IN OUR FAQ. It says IN OUR FAQ that we use the mixed armor rules from the main rule book and I do. If youll kindly go to the GW website and Read the new faq before posting again i twould save me alot of frustration and you alot of wasted words.

 

I have read it, and have evidently done so more carefully than yourself. Kindly do not imply that I have not.

 

The opening lines of that FAQ: "Since the publication of Codex: Space Wolves, the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook and a new Codex: Space Marines have been released (you

will need both to play a Space Wolves army). This document explains how to use the Space Wolves in conjunction with these books."

 

Note how it doesn't say two new Codex: Space Marines. Or mention how two new rulebooks have been released.

 

And Ill put it this way: I buy extra armor and put it on a tank, I can put it on any tank I like.... its something I buy if I buy tanks (though I dont need to buy it Im sure). Sorry, but your stretching, and I cant take you seriously when you say Im using an imaginairy book and are then refering to a FAQ that is no longer current.

 

When did I ever say you were using an imaginary book? I referred to the current version of the Space Wolf FAQ on the GW website (the only one I have access to). Which is dated from 2004. And which seems unaware that we're two rulebooks and two SM codices beyond the publication of Codex: Space Wolves.

 

Or to put it another way... the FAQ says we can take their options... it says nothing about wether that option has to be specific to that tank... just that it has to be an option for that tank.

 

So we tank take extra armor on a speeder... its not an option a space marine playe rwould have.... but we can buy it, and chronus, for a vindicator.... just like a Space marine player.

 

Their options are listed in their individual entries. Under the heading "options".

 

Is Chronus a listed option? No.

 

"Space Wolves vehicles: Use the point costs and

rules from Codex: Space Marines for

Dreadnoughts, Land Speeders, Attack Bikes,

Whirlwinds, Predators, Land Raiders and

Vindicators. All of the different variants and

options available to these units in a Space Marine

army are also available to the Space Wolves. The

exception to this is the Venerable Dreadnoughts,

which must be chosen from the Space Wolves

army list (as detailed on page 7), and not the

Space Marines army list."

 

Chronus is neither an option nor a variant. He is an upgrade. He is not an option for any of the tanks - he is his own choice. You buy him and put him in a tank. He is not an option for a tank - he's his own man, if you will.

 

Extra armor is part of a tank. If you buy it, it does not switch to some other tank. If you buy Chronus, he can hop around from battle to battle.

 

Look. He's not an option for a tank. You buy him, and put him in a tank. It is very, very different.

 

EDIT:

 

Reply to muzzyman:

 

No. Chronus is not an option for any particular tank. He's not even an option for a tank. Tanks don't buy Chronus. Chronus is bought, and assigned to a tank. It is very, very simple.

 

By your logic, extra armor and storm bolters, both options for every tank, should instead simply be listed in the wargear section as upgrades rather than be mentioned in a tank's options section.

[muzzyman1981]

Ok, I'm trying to understand, if he is an upgrade how can you buy a tank for him? An upgrade implies a secondary nature, you can't upgrade something you don't have. So either A) he is an upgrade (which is an option, you choose wether or not to take an upgrade, otherwise it would be mandatory and hence wargear) or :lol: he is a character on his own in which he is not an upgrade but needs to be counted against the FOC (as there is no special rule saying he is not).

 

To repeat, you can't upgrade something you don't have.

 

Your logic honestly makes extremely little sense. What is this about extra armor? How do you know they don't take the same piece of extra armor from one tank to another after a battle is over? Where is the proof of this?

 

*EDIT* In response to your edit, no what I am saying is that for them to not be listed in the options they need to have something in the descriptions of the options for a tank that they apply to all tanks. Chronus has that in his, the other options for tanks (extra armor, storm bolter, etc) do not have anything saying they are options for a tank therefore they need to be put in the tanks' profile.

[Grey Mage]

It doesnt.... and so is dropped. It even says that IN OUR FAQ. It says IN OUR FAQ that we use the mixed armor rules from the main rule book and I do. If youll kindly go to the GW website and Read the new faq before posting again i twould save me alot of frustration and you alot of wasted words.

 

I have read it, and have evidently done so more carefully than yourself. Kindly do not imply that I have not.

 

The opening lines of that FAQ: "Since the publication of Codex: Space Wolves, the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook and a new Codex: Space Marines have been released (you

will need both to play a Space Wolves army). This document explains how to use the Space Wolves in conjunction with these books."

 

Note how it doesn't say two new Codex: Space Marines. Or mention how two new rulebooks have been released.

And it shouldnt have to. The 4rth edition FAQ was very very different. Amongst other things it allowed us to only use a single Land Raider Crusder, as opposed to three of them. Its fairly simple that they said a new rule book and new codex..... as a new edition had just come out.... complete with shiny new marine codices in the next month.

 

And Ill put it this way: I buy extra armor and put it on a tank, I can put it on any tank I like.... its something I buy if I buy tanks (though I dont need to buy it Im sure). Sorry, but your stretching, and I cant take you seriously when you say Im using an imaginairy book and are then refering to a FAQ that is no longer current.

 

When did I ever say you were using an imaginary book? I referred to the current version of the Space Wolf FAQ on the GW website (the only one I have access to). Which is dated from 2004. And which seems unaware that we're two rulebooks and two SM codices beyond the publication of Codex: Space Wolves.

 

Otherwise, you're using a ruling from a codex that no longer exists for a codex that was not conceived of when that FAQ was published. Really, I'd say that FAQ's more or less obsolete, and you should use your Codex for the stuff that isn't errata. Otherwise you're using an obsolete codex with an obsolete FAQ...and that's nasty (for all involved).

Right here.... if its not what you meant, then Im sorry but it certainly looked like it. I will however note that the one on the GW website isnt from 2004, its from 2008.

 

 

Or to put it another way... the FAQ says we can take their options... it says nothing about wether that option has to be specific to that tank... just that it has to be an option for that tank.

 

So we tank take extra armor on a speeder... its not an option a space marine playe rwould have.... but we can buy it, and chronus, for a vindicator.... just like a Space marine player.

 

Their options are listed in their individual entries. Under the heading "options".

 

Is Chronus a listed option? No.

Hes list as an option, for vehicles classified as tanks, in his entry. Hes listed in the heavy support section, and I think thats where the confusion comes in for most people.... it says he must be selected for a tank in the army. That doesnt however change the fact that he is still an option.

 

"Space Wolves vehicles: Use the point costs and

rules from Codex: Space Marines for

Dreadnoughts, Land Speeders, Attack Bikes,

Whirlwinds, Predators, Land Raiders and

Vindicators. All of the different variants and

options available to these units in a Space Marine

army are also available to the Space Wolves. The

exception to this is the Venerable Dreadnoughts,

which must be chosen from the Space Wolves

army list (as detailed on page 7), and not the

Space Marines army list."

 

Chronus is neither an option nor a variant. He is an upgrade. He is not an option for any of the tanks - he is his own choice. You buy him and put him in a tank. He is not an option for a tank - he's his own man, if you will.

 

Extra armor is part of a tank. If you buy it, it does not switch to some other tank. If you buy Chronus, he can hop around from battle to battle.

 

Look. He's not an option for a tank. You buy him, and put him in a tank. It is very, very different.

All upgrades are options. Its not different at all.

[Octavulg]

Ok, I'm trying to understand, if he is an upgrade how can you buy a tank for him? An upgrade implies a secondary nature, you can't upgrade something you don't have.

 

But he's not an upgrade to the tank. He's just an upgrade. He starts as commander of a Space Marine tank. However, it does not say he is an upgrade to that tank. He must be assigned to a tank, so you do require a tank before you can take him - but he is not related to any particular tank in your list.

 

Look at his listing in Heavy Support. He must be assigned to one tank in the army. He's not an upgrade to any tank - he's a separate choice that must be assigned to a tank.

 

So either A) he is an upgrade (which is an option, you choose wether or not to take an upgrade, otherwise it would be mandatory and hence wargear) or cool.gif he is a character on his own in which he is not an upgrade but needs to be counted against the FOC (as there is no special rule saying he is not).

 

The two are not mutually exclusive.

 

He is "bought as an upgrade". This means he doesn't use an FOC choice. However he is not bought for any particular tank - he is assigned to one.

 

Extra armor's not. It is bought for a tank, and it stays with that tank.

 

Your logic honestly makes extremely little sense. What is this about extra armor? How do you know they don't take the same piece of extra armor from one tank to another after a battle is over? Where is the proof of this?

 

...

 

Extra armor is bought for one tank. If you take that same list to another game, the extra armor does not switch to some other tank. Chronus can. See?

 

There are three points to my argument.

 

1) Your FAQ was designed to use the 4e C:SM. It is dated 2004. Using the new C:SM with it is a mistake.

2) Chronus is listed neither as a variant nor option for a tank.

3) Chronus is a generalized upgrade who is assigned to a vehicle, not an upgrade for a vehicle.

 

* * *

Right here.... if its not what you meant, then Im sorry but it certainly looked like it. I will however note that the one on the GW website isnt from 2004, its from 2008.

 

It's dated 2004 on the GW website. And a far wiser choice of words would have been something like "a codex that has been replaced".

 

Hes list as an option, for vehicles classified as tanks, in his entry. Hes listed in the heavy support section, and I think thats where the confusion comes in for most people.... it says he must be selected for a tank in the army. That doesnt however change the fact that he is still an option.

 

Wrong, wrong, wrong. He's listed as an upgrade that must be assigned to a tank.

 

He is not an option for any tank in the army. He is a separate choice, assigned to a tank as though he were an upgrade.

 

All upgrades are options. Its not different at all.

 

There is a section for every vehicle called "options". Chronus is not in any of them. He is evidently not a variant.

 

He is bought "as an upgrade". He is not bought as "an upgrade to a vehicle". He is an option for the list, assigned to a vehicle. Not an option for a vehicle.

 

Plus, I have said several dozen times (OK, it just feels like it): he is an upgrade for the list. Not a vehicle. He is assigned to a vehicle. Otherwise, he'd just be an upgrade for a vehicle. If he were an upgrade, you'd have a case that he was also an option, despite not being listed as one.

 

But he is not an upgrade for a vehicle, so he is not an option for a vehicle, so you do not have him. Go check the official rules forum if you won't believe me.

[muzzyman1981]

Do you not see the reverse nature of your arguments? He's an upgrade but he not an upgrade to a tank....so what is he an upgrade for? Besides, as I've stated, an upgrade implies that you have to have a base object to apply the upgrade to. So if he's not an upgrade to a tank then what, exactly, is he a upgrade for?

 

If you can explain what he is an upgrade for then fine, as an upgrade means there is a base "thing" in which he is taking the place of. He can't just be bought as an upgrade for nothing. If he is bought as an upgrade for the "normal commander" of the tank then that would mean is IS an upgrade for the tank as there is no seperate crew...a tank's crew is part of the tank.

 

For the final time, we use the friggin' 5e publications. They are the latest versions. Now as for the FAQs being written for the 4e SM Codex, write GW to get them to update the FAQ, otherwise we are using the latest FAQ and Space Marine Codex.

 

One final comment for something I saw that you wrote : "He is not an option for any tank in the army. He is a separate choice, assigned to a tank as though he were an upgrade. " In his description it doesn't "as if he were an upgrade"...it says he is "bought as an upgrade". Again, tell me what he is upgrading, and if it not part of the tank (i.e. a normal tank commander) then I will let it sit.

[Octavulg]

He's an upgrade but he not an upgrade to a tank....so what is he an upgrade for?

 

Good question. However, he's not an upgrade for a vehicle. He's just an upgrade. For the list as a whole, maybe?

 

Seriously. I don't know what he's an upgrade for. But you must admit, if he is an upgrade for a vehicle, it'd be a lot easier to just say that. And in the absence of them saying that he is an upgrade for a vehicle, he is not one.

 

Besides, as I've stated, an upgrade implies that you have to have a base object to apply the upgrade to. So if he's not an upgrade to a tank then what, exactly, is he a upgrade for?

 

Couldn't tell you. However, he's still an upgrade that is then assigned to a vehicle - not an upgrade for a vehicle.

 

You must admit, it'd be a lot easier to just say "one vehicle can purchase him as an upgrade". The fact that it doesn't say that suggests that is not what is meant.

 

We're not allowed to use implication any more. RAW. Such is the party line.

 

If you can explain what he is an upgrade for then fine, as an upgrade means there is a base "thing" in which he is taking the place of. He can't just be bought as an upgrade for nothing. If he is bought as an upgrade for the "normal commander" of the tank then that would mean is IS an upgrade for the tank as there is no seperate crew...a tank's crew is part of the tank.

 

See, it's not my responsibility to explain what he's an upgrade for. It's the codex's. And the codex does not. This means that he's not an upgrade for anything - and thus not a vehicular option.

 

The burden of proof is not on me here.

 

For the final time, we use the friggin' 5e publications. They are the latest versions. Now as for the FAQs being written for the 4e SM Codex, write GW to get them to update the FAQ, otherwise we are using the latest FAQ and Space Marine Codex.

 

So it says this where? Using the latest FAQ, yes. But by using a Codex: Space Marines other than that referred to by the FAQ, methinks you're violating the rules of that same FAQ.

 

Plus, two other points: GW FAQs are no longer official rules (though I'd agree that any FAQ that came into play before that policy did was). Second, GW has (IIRC) actually stated that they don't need to produce FAQs regularly - RAW is enough.

 

One final comment for something I saw that you wrote : "He is not an option for any tank in the army. He is a separate choice, assigned to a tank as though he were an upgrade. " In his description it doesn't "as if he were an upgrade"...it says he is "bought as an upgrade". Again, tell me what he is upgrading, and if it not part of the tank (i.e. a normal tank commander) then I will let it sit.

 

Look, the whole point is that it doesn't say/i] what he upgrades. Admittedly, it makes a lot of sense that he'd upgrade a vehicle - but it'd also make a lot of sense that the Space Wolves don't have access to an Ultramarines special character.

 

Put it this way:

 

Under a RAW interpretation, Chronus is not specified to be a vehicular upgrade. This means he's not, which means he's definitely not a vehicular option. This means you can't take him.

 

Under a RAI interpretation, Chronus is an Ultramarines special character, and you can't take him.

 

As many people have said, this is not a permissive ruleset. If it doesn't say it is something, that means it isn't.

[muzzyman1981]

Well lets say that Space Wolves want access to Chronis' profile, not Chronus' fluff....that would make sense. I'm not saying that Chronus himself is commanding Space Wolf tanks, I'm saying that someone with Chronus' profile and abilities is commanding a Space Wolf tank.

 

Secondly, how can you say in one sentence that you RAW about Chronus but in another sentence RAI about the FAQ? The FAQ doesn't state that we have to use the 4e SM Codex, yet you are arguing that we do. Sorry my friend, but you must pick a stance and use it.

 

As for it "should" have been written a certain way, sorry it wasn't but was written is pretty simple it seems. He is "bought as an upgrade"...he "must be assignto one tank in the army"...put the two together and you have the answer.

 

You say that Space Wolves can't take an Ultramarine Special Character, well fine we can play with that, but then no one can play with a Ultramarine Special Character, ONLY Ultramarines.....but wait, it says in the SM Codex that other Chapters may use Special Characters "to represent a might hero of a different Chapter".

 

Put all of that together and you have the ability of Space Wolves to take the profile and stats of Chronus, and use him in any Space Marine vehicle allowed. We could use the Space Marine model that comes in most vehicles as a representation of an Iron Priest that uses Chronus' profile and stats.

 

Now, back to the FAQ issue. The FAQ doesn't mention a specific SM Codex for the Space Wolves to use, it only says to use the Space Marine Codex. Don't blame us for following what the FAQ says. As for the FAQs not being "official" rules, well fine then leave us the heck alone about using the Space Marine Codex because the Space Wolf Codex ALSO tells us to use the Space Marine Codex, or will you now tell us to use the 3e Space Marine Codex? You can't use the date to say what publications we are to use, as nothing in there says anything like "Use the edition of rulebook and/or Codex that this Codex/FAQ was based upon." When you find something like that, then please post a reference, otherwise we will use the current publication(s).

[Tuzgai]

You like to appeal to simplicity, so here's a simple argument. Space Wolves may use Space Marine vehicles, variants, and options.

 

Chronus is not a vehicle, and thus also not a vehicle variant.

 

Each vehicle entry has an options entry in their profile in the army list. Chronus is not listed as a vehicle option.

 

Chronus is not a Space Marine vehicle, variant, or option.

 

Therefore, Space Wolves can't take Chronus.

 

 

 

Oh, another (slightly less strong) argument for Chronus not being an option. You let as many vehicles as you want take the option to have a storm bolter. If vehicles had Chronus as a normal option, you could have a bunch of him.

[muzzyman1981]

He is an upgrade which in the context of Warhammer 40k rulebook and codex is the same as an option.

 

Let's look at it according to your point, he is not listed as an option in the vehicle profiles. Who can take him since he is not listed specifically in the vehicle profiles? If he isn't in the vehicle profiles then what is he an upgrade for?

 

That is the main thing...what is he an upgrade for? I would say he is an upgrade for the "normal commander" of one tank. Since crew are considered part of the tank, he can be taken since he is therefore an upgrade for a tank.

 

Options and upgrades are the same thing in this codex, but lets go a bit deeper. An upgrade is an OPTIONAL choice that can be taken by an army commander....every upgrade is an option or else it would be mandatory and therefore said to be wargear.

[Octavulg]

Tuzgai: Thank you for being a voice of reason. I've tried that argument twice, however, and the response is that he's a vehicle upgrade, and therefore an option.

 

muzzyman:

Well lets say that Space Wolves want access to Chronis' profile, not Chronus' fluff....that would make sense. I'm not saying that Chronus himself is commanding Space Wolf tanks, I'm saying that someone with Chronus' profile and abilities is commanding a Space Wolf tank.

 

I know. I will explain this more slowly.

 

It seems fairly unlikely that the author intended for Space Wolves to get access to Chronus. It is more likely the thought never crossed his mind, but if he did think of it, he probably thought "no". Thus, you can't make a RAI argument for having Chronus, because once you get into RAI, you are more-or-less obligated to carry it to its logical conclusion - that the C:SM author didn't want you to have access to the cool new characters (if only due to his raging fanboyism). Thus, you should prove your argument with RAW, since RAI clearly holds no love for your argument.

 

Get it?

 

Secondly, how can you say in one sentence that you RAW about Chronus but in another sentence RAI about the FAQ? The FAQ doesn't state that we have to use the 4e SM Codex, yet you are arguing that we do. Sorry my friend, but you must pick a stance and use it.

 

It says to use Codex: Space Marines. Since it was written in 2004, still refers to things as if it were fourth edition, and is generally not up-to-date, it is reasonable to assum that it refers to that particular codex.

 

After all, if it just referred to each codex, would that part of the FAQ even be necessary as-is? EDIT: By which I mean if Codex: Space Wolves just says "look in Codex: SM", why have that part of the FAQ?

 

And one could argue that I'm doing the ultimate RAW - I'm insisting that the rules apply to one specific case exactly. Not just Codex: Space Marines, but Codex: Space Marines Fourth Edition.

 

As for it "should" have been written a certain way, sorry it wasn't but was written is pretty simple it seems. He is "bought as an upgrade"...he "must be assignto one tank in the army"...put the two together and you have the answer.

 

No, you don't. Extra armor is not bought and then assigned to a tank. It is bought by a specific tank. Storm bolters are not bought and assigned to tanks. They are bought by specific tanks.

 

Chronus is bought, then assigned to a tank. He is fundamentally different from the vehicle options. Hell, I think you can change who he's assigned to without changing the army list.

 

Putting two and two together is not what we do here. We look for where it says four, and if it doesn't, we are forced to be sad. RAW, Chronus cannot be taken.

 

You say that Space Wolves can't take an Ultramarine Special Character, well fine we can play with that, but then no one can play with a Ultramarine Special Character, ONLY Ultramarines.....but wait, it says in the SM Codex that other Chapters may use Special Characters "to represent a might hero of a different Chapter".

 

That's from the RAI side of the argument. I'm pointing out that you have no argument either way - from a RAI perspective, the author (being such a pro-Ultra bigot that he may defecate blue) wouldn't want you near his shiny fanboy-toys. From a RAW perspective, you can't take Chronus because he's not a vehicle upgrade or a vehicle option.

 

Now, back to the FAQ issue. The FAQ doesn't mention a specific SM Codex for the Space Wolves to use, it only says to use the Space Marine Codex.

 

You do realize that this is a side-issue to the main point, and that I'm mostly trying to make you realize the folly of RAWing about an obsolete document's interactions with a brand-new book that was not thought of when the document was conceived? And pointing out that really, it'd be far more sensible to use the book the document was conceived for until a new document is released?

[Warhead01]

I just had a look and cant see him beng used by the wolves. If he was listed under each vehicle then I could not see a reason he would not be alowed but He is his own entry ....

[muzzyman1981]

Firstly, do not insult me. That little comment about explaining it more slowly was un-warranted and if I see it again I will report you for the slight.

 

Secondly, I am stating my point of view, both sides have merrit which is why the majority of TOs and whatnot will not allow it due to the "grey area" this causes...better to deny it than allow what some people may percieve as something very wrong. I respect your opinion, even if I don't agree with it, this post has gone to the point of a debate rather than any sort of "ruling". Again, do not insult me because of my differing view.

 

Lastly, I will not give up my side of view until I can get a decent answer to the "What is Chronus supposed to be upgrading?" question that points towards not letting Space Wolves take him. When I can get someone else who will try to explain why he is an upgrade but not a vehicle upgrade I will continue my debate.

[Octavulg]

Firstly, do not insult me. That little comment about explaining it more slowly was un-warranted and if I see it again I will report you for the slight.

 

Oversensitive much?

 

No slight was intended. I assure you that if a slight were intended, you would know it.

 

However, I must ask if you will be reporting those earlier in the thread who referred to your opponents as "retarted" (sic) and "jerks".

 

Lastly, I will not give up my side of view until I can get a decent answer to the "What is Chronus supposed to be upgrading?" question that points towards not letting Space Wolves take him. When I can get someone else who will try to explain why he is an upgrade but not a vehicle upgrade I will continue my debate.

 

Options for what that means:

 

A ) (my favorite explanation) All it means is that he doesn't take up a Force Organization slot. He's "bought as an upgrade". This is either a really dumb way of saying "he's an upgrade to a tank" or it's a way of telling us he doesn't use a Heavy Support slot. If he were an upgrade, there are so many better ways to say I can only hope they meant something else.

 

B ) He's an upgrade to the army list itself. Odd, but not entirely nonsensical.

[Grey Mage]

I certainly will hand you the rules as intended argument, I dont think they even thought of it either when they wrote that codex... the man who wrote it doesnt seem overly concerned with any of the other marine armies from his interveiw. Im looking for RAW, though Ill note I dont intend to take him either way... not worth the points.

 

I put forth interpretation C) Hes an upgrade, and the commander of, a space marine tank. The Commander part is purely fluff as there are no rules governing the commander of a tank or vehicle in this game.... thus it is ignored leaving me with the simple idea that he is an upgrade for a space marine tank.

 

Hes certainly not an upgrade to the list as a whole.... he only affects the one vehicle. As for saying he doesnt take up a heavy support slot, they did something similar and much better Ill note, with command squads. I cant see any reason why they wouldnt have done so here.

 

I will concede however that GW doesnt always have to do things in a way Id see reasonable.

 

Id also like to point out that the Fifth edition FAQ, the one we currently use, was NOT out in 2004. It only appeared in 2008 and is specificly for fifth edition. The fourth edition FAQ did not give wolf gaurd battle leaders the ability to take heavy weapons, nor did it allow us unrestricted ability to take vehicles.... for instance land raider crusaders were 0-1. The FAQ were talking about is not obsolete, its rather new..... newer than almost any codex on the market.

[Octavulg]

Im looking for RAW, though Ill note I dont intend to take him either way... not worth the points.

 

BS5, ignores stunned and shaken...

 

He'd be dandy in a Land Raider, IMO. Expensive, but you could do a real number on enemy tanks.

 

Hes certainly not an upgrade to the list as a whole.... he only affects the one vehicle. As for saying he doesnt take up a heavy support slot, they did something similar and much better Ill note, with command squads. I cant see any reason why they wouldnt have done so here.

 

But I can't see a reason not to just state he's an upgrade for a vehicle. As is, he's an upgrade that is then assigned to a vehicle.

 

Yes, it's nitpicky as all hell. But 'tis still true: he's not an upgrade for a vehicle. He's an upgrade which is assigned to a vehicle after purchase.

 

In the absence of an explicit statement that he's an upgrade to a vehicle, we have to assume he isn't. Hey, at least you got new Land Raiders.

 

Id also like to point out that the Fifth edition FAQ, the one we currently use, was NOT out in 2004. It only appeared in 2008 and is specificly for fifth edition. The fourth edition FAQ did not give wolf gaurd battle leaders the ability to take heavy weapons, nor did it allow us unrestricted ability to take vehicles.... for instance land raider crusaders were 0-1. The FAQ were talking about is not obsolete, its rather new..... newer than almost any codex on the market.

 

In that case, they suck due to dating it 2004. Seriously. That's the only date on the damn thing. :)

[Grey Mage]

The one I have says 2004-2008 on the file name..... but I assure it it came out in 08, as I have the 04 one sitting right above it in my files. Now to restate my argument as to his being an upgrade for a space marine tank. The phrase "and starts the commander of" is simply fluff and has no rules effect, thus is ignored. The statement without that peice is simply : Chronus is always bought as an upgrade *fluff* of a Space Marine tank (see army list).

 

I can see your interpretation, however youve noted that it comes to logical clonclussions.... it just leaves one drifting. That in and of itself means that its unlikely to be the correct option. More likely, due to its simplicity, the chronus entry is usable by space wolf players... even if it is because of writer/editor oversight.

 

 

On a related but entirely NON-RAW note, my group lets DA, BT, and BA players take most of the stuff from the new codex.... including upgraded transport capacity for landraiders, storm shields, and CML's. So I havent encountered alot of real life issues with codex creep/complaints from them.

[Octavulg]

Look at the Eldar one. The 08 is the month it came out (otherwise the Eldar one is dated 2008-2005, which'd be...odd, no?). Not that I'm disagreeing, I'm just saying.

 

While it has no actual effect, it's still rules text, and cannot be ignored. Sorry. I admit it'd make more sense that way, but we can't just delete the damn text. That kind of defeats the point.

 

Further more, the rulebook says he's "assigned to one tank in the army". That means he's purchased, then assigned to a tank - not the other way around. Which, sadly, leaves him out of reach for Space Wolves.

 

Frankly, in the absence of a clear solution either way, it is far better that we err on the side of "don't do it".

[Grey Mage]

If you choose not to ignore it you need to find an interpretation for it then..... what exactly does commanding a tank mean, RAW? I can bring up a number of other places in the codex where fluff is mixed in with the rules if youd like. If it has no meaning.... then let us look at it again.

 

Chronus is always bought as an upgrade and starts the game as commander of a Space Marine tank (see army list).

 

Using a simple sentence diagram we can see that chronus is the subject, and that he does two things. 1) hes always bought as an upgrade 2) starts the game as a commander. Both of these can reference the secondairy subject Space Marine tank.

 

Ill note that this came up because this board thought it was clear enough that when one person casually mentioned it the rest did a quick read through and said... sounds about right. Besides muzzy Ive yet to see him in a list though, just another interesting option.

 

The previous FAQ was entitled Space_Wolves_FAQ_v4-1 for reference.

[Octavulg]

The "starts the game as commander of a space marine tank" informs us that he does not start the game as an individual model, but instead providing his benefits to a tank.

 

You can read the sentence that way....but that's certainly not the way I'd read it at first. While the tank can be the secondary subject, it could just as easily be two sentences conjoined - Chronus is bought as an upgrade. Chronus starts the game as commander of a Space Marine tank. Indeed, it's arguably grammatically incorrect as you have interpreted - "Chronus is bought as an upgrade of a Space Marine tank" just doesn't work grammatically. In order to be grammatically sound, the word "to" should be included after "upgrade".

 

Thus, as-is, the sentence merely tells us that he's an upgrade (though to what, god knows), and that he starts the game as a tank commander (and, later on on the page, what that means). We are told to see the army list entry for further details.

 

Let's compare Telion's list entry with Chronus'. Telion replaces a Scout Sergeant (and the wording is that a Scout Squad may replace their Sergeant with him). Chronus is "assigned" to a tank. You need to have something before you can assign it somewhere - thus, Telion comes before the vehicle. Meaning he is not an upgrade to that vehicle.

 

And I'd note that asking Space Wolves players if you can do something beneficial to the Space Wolf list is...unlikely to give you an unbiased result. Did anyone even consider taking this to the Official Rules forum?

 

I'll admit the rules might have been intended to convey the meaning you are giving them (though I'm honestly not certain either way), but by that same token they'd not have been intended to allow this. Either way, there's just not enough to support it - and in that case, one should err on the side of caution.

[Grey Mage]

So youve said, and as Ive said.... I really dont have any intentions of taking him either way. *shrugs* Ill also note that with the exception of a couple misunderstandings youve debated well and openly wich is better then most of the people against this idea. I know Im missing something I saw before, and I might come back and toss it in the pot but for the moment Im done arguing this one.

 

Besides, err on the side of caution isnt ever bad advice in a subjective gaming situation.

[Lion in the Stars]

As of right this second, the FAQ off the GW site is titled "Space Wolves FAQ 2004-08 5th Edition.pdf" I don't know what their webmonkey was thinking when they titled it, but it explicitly states "5th edition" in the filename. checking the actual doc shows a copyright date of 2005... sigh...