Grand Master Raziel Secundus Posted November 23, 2008 Share Posted November 23, 2008 Hi folks 2 questions really, first... the power "fortune", does it apply to all saves,invulerable, cover, etc? and the eldar have a wargear mask that "prevents" perils of the warp. Is this roll in lieu of a save or in addition too (In other words, 2 saves) Cheers! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152962-couple-of-questions-about-eldar/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted November 23, 2008 Share Posted November 23, 2008 I assume you came up against these and were flustered by its power, since normally one can't ask such things in this PA forum. Fortune applies to "any failed saves" as stated in the codex, so yes that's any and all, including such things as cover saves for vehicles. As for the Ghosthelm, the piece of wargear you're referring to, it's stated thusly: "If a Farseer suffers a Perils of the Warp attack his Ghosthelm will negate it on the D6 roll of a 3+." Note that this means it is not a save of any kind and so can't be rerolled with Fortune. It is made in lieu of an invulnerable save. Basically, when a Fortuned Farseer suffers Perils, there are two choices with four outcomes: Attempt Invulnerable save - Pass Invulnerable save then be forced to reroll it. - Fail Invulnerable save then be forced to reroll it. ...or... Attempt Ghosthelm Negation - Pass Ghosthelm ability. - Fail Ghosthelm ability, suffer 1 wound. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152962-couple-of-questions-about-eldar/#findComment-1782982 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Raziel Secundus Posted November 23, 2008 Author Share Posted November 23, 2008 Yes, I'm a Deathwing player. And even tho I won, the effects of these 2 things made the result too close for comfort. That makes "fortune" really powerful... wow... But I was right about that "Ghosthelm". The eldar player was saying you use that, and if it fails, you get your 3+ inv! That made perils of the warp nearly impossible to not pass. Thanks for the heads up! Cheers! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152962-couple-of-questions-about-eldar/#findComment-1783006 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted November 23, 2008 Share Posted November 23, 2008 Since the ghost helm roll is evidently not a "ward save" I am not sure why it should replace the Farseers regular ward save? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152962-couple-of-questions-about-eldar/#findComment-1783053 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted November 23, 2008 Share Posted November 23, 2008 Hmmm.... You know what, he would get both, and here's why in a handy resolution chart: 1. Player rolls a Perils. Uh ohs! 2. Player rolls for Ghosthelm and fails. Uh ohs! 3. Player now takes a wound, but it can be saved by a normal invulnerable save. 4. Player rolls for inv save and passes, but has to reroll because of the rulebook saying so. I know you're talking about him using the Eldrad special character, in which case he gets a 3+ ward and a 3+ inv save, as his rune armor is better. Just be happy that he has to reroll the inv if he passes it I guess. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152962-couple-of-questions-about-eldar/#findComment-1783109 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted November 23, 2008 Share Posted November 23, 2008 I am sorry, I was conflicting WHFB and 40K terminology. I meant the roll for the ghost helm is not an "invulnerable save". Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152962-couple-of-questions-about-eldar/#findComment-1783127 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted November 23, 2008 Share Posted November 23, 2008 I understood you just fine. I know others that do the same because it essentially means the same... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152962-couple-of-questions-about-eldar/#findComment-1783175 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Raziel Secundus Posted November 24, 2008 Author Share Posted November 24, 2008 I think for the points, it is very over-powered and not as clear as it could be.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152962-couple-of-questions-about-eldar/#findComment-1783579 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted November 26, 2008 Share Posted November 26, 2008 The Ghosthelm isn't overpowered, it represents the superior psychic abilities and technology of the Eldar. Their Farseers are like gods compared to human psykers, and Eldar technology is light-years ahead of humanity. I have a question about Fortune and Perils of the Warp. Say I cast Fortune on the Farseer, and he rolls a 2 (therefore the power still works, but he suffers Perils). Is this the progression? 1. Perils of the Warp 2. Ghosthelm works on a 3+ 3. Assuming it fails, I take a wound, but can use rune armour (4+ invul) against it 5. Fortune cancels out the 'must re-roll invul saves' rule for Perils wounds. So, he just takes a normal 4+ invul save. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152962-couple-of-questions-about-eldar/#findComment-1787184 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reglor Posted November 27, 2008 Share Posted November 27, 2008 The Ghosthelm isn't overpowered, it represents the superior psychic abilities and technology of the Eldar. Their Farseers are like gods compared to human psykers, and Eldar technology is light-years ahead of humanity. I have a question about Fortune and Perils of the Warp. Say I cast Fortune on the Farseer, and he rolls a 2 (therefore the power still works, but he suffers Perils). Is this the progression? 1. Perils of the Warp 2. Ghosthelm works on a 3+ 3. Assuming it fails, I take a wound, but can use rune armour (4+ invul) against it 5. Fortune cancels out the 'must re-roll invul saves' rule for Perils wounds. So, he just takes a normal 4+ invul save. :D What happened to point 4? :o Anyway, I don't see anything that says that fortune cancels out the Perils re-roll, the combination of the two means that the first roll means nothing and you always re-roll it. Unless you means because you always re-roll, you might as well just roll once. Just make sure you tell your opponent your doing that first. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152962-couple-of-questions-about-eldar/#findComment-1787293 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted November 27, 2008 Share Posted November 27, 2008 Reglor is more correct. They do not cancel each other out at all. It's simply "if you succeed the first time, reroll it; or, if you fail the first time, reroll it." Since you can't reroll a reroll, the second result always stands. Why just roll once? If you pass you may yet fail, giving points to your opponent, and vice versa, or the original result might be repeated. It's quite an important thing, and I'd always have my opponent roll both, just like rolling for penetration when nailing a landspeeder with a railgun. You might roll a 6 for pen then a 1 on the chart; but if I just assumed you'd penetrate (S10 + D6 vs AV 10 of course it will), that first 6 now means it explodes. Not gonna fly, so roll both. But the short answer is yes. This is what I wrote earlier: 1. Player rolls a Perils. Uh ohs! 2. Player rolls for Ghosthelm and fails. Uh ohs! 3. Player now takes a wound, but it can be saved by a normal invulnerable save. 4. Player rolls for inv save and passes, but has to reroll because of the rulebook saying so. For Eldar Farseers, they have a 4-step program when they peril. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152962-couple-of-questions-about-eldar/#findComment-1787327 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mordekiem Posted November 27, 2008 Share Posted November 27, 2008 Fortune does cancel out the perils required reroll. So the progression of a farseer with fortune would be Farseer rolled a 2 or 12. Roll for ghosthelm (3+) If ghost helm fails then roll for rune armor (4+; 3+ for eldrad) If that fails the farseer takes a wound Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152962-couple-of-questions-about-eldar/#findComment-1787375 Share on other sites More sharing options...
maniclurker Posted November 27, 2008 Share Posted November 27, 2008 No, Mordekiem, it doesn't cancel it. Period. Where in the rules does it say that? It doesn't. Like the others have said, you re-roll it regardless of the results, by RAW. However, you can just explain this to your opponent and have him agree that you only roll it once to waste less time. Then again, it will probably take as long to do this than it would just to roll it and then re-roll it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152962-couple-of-questions-about-eldar/#findComment-1787446 Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyescrossed Posted November 27, 2008 Share Posted November 27, 2008 Wait - are people here saying if you use fortune you have to re-roll ALL saves, or are you referring to something else, because fortune is only for failed saves. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152962-couple-of-questions-about-eldar/#findComment-1787790 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reglor Posted November 27, 2008 Share Posted November 27, 2008 Wait - are people here saying if you use fortune you have to re-roll ALL saves, or are you referring to something else, because fortune is only for failed saves. Yes, fortune makes you re-roll failed saves, but Perils of the Warp makes you re-roll successful saves. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152962-couple-of-questions-about-eldar/#findComment-1787812 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted November 27, 2008 Share Posted November 27, 2008 Allthough, rolling a dice which result will be discarded in any case does seem kind of pointless. ^_^ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152962-couple-of-questions-about-eldar/#findComment-1787818 Share on other sites More sharing options...
maniclurker Posted November 27, 2008 Share Posted November 27, 2008 You're right, Legatus. It is pointless. However, them's the rules. Regardless of the agreement you make with your opponent, you have to stick with it. Otherwise, he might just decide to reroll or have them cancel out whenever it's most beneficial for him. If you stick by the rules, then there can be no problem. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152962-couple-of-questions-about-eldar/#findComment-1788100 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mordekiem Posted November 28, 2008 Share Posted November 28, 2008 No, Mordekiem, it doesn't cancel it. Period. Where in the rules does it say that? It doesn't. Like the others have said, you re-roll it regardless of the results, by RAW. However, you can just explain this to your opponent and have him agree that you only roll it once to waste less time. Then again, it will probably take as long to do this than it would just to roll it and then re-roll it. Right, so since you have to reroll no matter what they effectively cancel each other and you just roll once normally with no additional rerolls. Say it how ever you want, but they cancel each other out and you just roll once. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152962-couple-of-questions-about-eldar/#findComment-1788596 Share on other sites More sharing options...
maniclurker Posted November 28, 2008 Share Posted November 28, 2008 No, Mordekiem. Ignoring rules is not how to correctly play the game. In no way can you actually prove what you are saying. In theory, they cancel each other out. However, in practice, you still have to roll, and then re-roll the dice. That is called playing by the rules. And playing by the rules is the foundation of this game. If you want, you can discuss this with your opponent, and agree that they cancel out. So, aside from being quite incorrect, you're also being unneccesarily stubborn about this. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152962-couple-of-questions-about-eldar/#findComment-1789226 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mordekiem Posted November 29, 2008 Share Posted November 29, 2008 No, Mordekiem. Ignoring rules is not how to correctly play the game. In no way can you actually prove what you are saying. In theory, they cancel each other out. However, in practice, you still have to roll, and then re-roll the dice. That is called playing by the rules. And playing by the rules is the foundation of this game. If you want, you can discuss this with your opponent, and agree that they cancel out. So, aside from being quite incorrect, you're also being unneccesarily stubborn about this. No matter what you roll on the first roll you must reroll. No matter what you roll on the second roll it stands. So you may as well only roll one dice and let it stand. No need to roll twice. So effectively yes, they do cancel each other out. Yes I have just proved that and yes I am playing by the rules. So I am correct. You rolling twice and only countig the last one is also correct, but unneccesary. You can stubbornly say over and over that they don't cancel each other out, but they do. While I praise you for clarifying how things work, telling people they have to roll twice is just plain silly. Stubbornly clinging to that lame idea is even sillier. Take a chill pill and just roll one dice, dude. ^_^ It makes life easier for everyone, including your opponent. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152962-couple-of-questions-about-eldar/#findComment-1790270 Share on other sites More sharing options...
maniclurker Posted November 30, 2008 Share Posted November 30, 2008 No matter what you roll on the first roll you must reroll. Very good. You are catching on. So I am correct. You rolling twice and only countig the last one is also correct, but unneccesary. How this makes sense... I don't know. You just stated that I'm right, but you are right. ...telling people they have to roll twice is just plain silly. Stubbornly clinging to that lame idea is even sillier. You should read what I type before writing a response, one which you will hopefully think about as you type it. I very specifically gave the alternative to what we both agree to be silliness... that is discussing it with your opponent. Because that's how it works. You follow the rules. If theres an issue like this, you discuss it with your opponent, and save time for everyone in the future. However, in no way is it assumed that the 2 rolls nullify each other, and you only roll once. As I stated, this could lead to inconstincies, such as your opponent deciding to not reroll it at one time, but rerolling it another. When you can bring actual proof to this discussion, your point will be valid. For example, an FAQ that supports your position, or some rule in the rulebook. However, I know you can't. So, you have no proof. As such, play by the rules, and talk it over with your opponent. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152962-couple-of-questions-about-eldar/#findComment-1790759 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Praeger Posted November 30, 2008 Share Posted November 30, 2008 FIRST AND LAST WARNING new rules are now in effect people. Dont know them? do some reading. First sticky thread. NO BICKERING Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152962-couple-of-questions-about-eldar/#findComment-1791391 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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