Back into 40K, wondering...

[Draakur]

+edited for rampant, unreadable verbosity+ :)

 

Haven't played since 3rd ed., and I'm completely new to daemons and the current rules. Good educated sirs; could a Nurgle and Tzeentch daemon force work? If so/not, how/why not? Would really appreciate any help or insights you can offer! :tu:

[Captain Malachi]

To be honest, I think it could work well, nurgles forces will hold almost anything in place for several turns, while you get your tzeentch elements in place to deliver the killing blow. It won't, however, be easy, you have no uberkilly units, as these all belong to either khorne or slaanesh. Take a few soulgrinders and greater daemons and you should do alright.

[Draakur]

Speedy reply, thanks man. Yeh I was sort of under the same impression, that neither god had much in the way of a big, damage-dealing bulldozer that could be relied upon to really get in and crack heads (outside of GDs, that is, which are certainly on the cards at this stage). I actually had it in my head that I'd try to avoid soulgrinders, but if I find that the force just won't work without that sort of punch, I'm willing to go that route.

[Captain Malachi]

If you don't want to use soulgrinders then I suggest you read this topic, it should give you a viable alternative :tu: I include one in my army.

 

Edit- Just a quick warning, but a nurgle/tzeentch army won't be cheap, almost all of their models are metal.

[Draakur]

Yeh I think I'll have atleast one DP, possibly one for each god or something. Going to go and grab my own codex today so I can spend some proper time checking all of this out.

 

The all-metal thing is a real shame, I realised that last week aswell :lol: I'll have to see what I can do about this. I've got a friend with a bunch of older daemons, who might be willing to part with them. I should probably start scanning ebay aswell hah...

[Captain Malachi]

The all metal thing isn't as bad as it sounds, bear in mind, they're daemons, they can look like anything, I use wood elf dryads as my horrors.

[howard the coward]

If you want a bulldozer unit i'de go with Ku'gath, hes one of the meanest choices their is, ive had sucess with him many times. Most of the time they wont see it coming till its too late. Ku'gath and a bloodthirster will take care of almost any unit hands down.

[megamat008]

Hell yeah !

 

Nurgle /Tzentch is the best combo IMHO.

 

I use Fateweaver along with 3x3 Flamers, 3x10 plaguebearers, 3x6Horrors with Changeling and Bolt and 3 Soulgrinders with Phlegm and Tongue.

 

Drop the PB on an objective and make them go to ground, they're almost invincible. Bring Kairos next to them and it's a guaranteed objective for you.

 

I'd strongly advise you to take SG, they are your only way to deal reliably with Hordes (Phlegm) and LR/Monoliths (Tongue and DCCW), plus they are dead hard and have a S6 flamer to boot to instakill those pesky seer councils ;)

[Captain Malachi]

I'd strongly advise you to take SG, they are your only way to deal reliably with Hordes (Phlegm) and LR/Monoliths (Tongue and DCCW), plus they are dead hard and have a S6 flamer to boot to instakill those pesky seer councils ;)

Not the only way, Tzeentch can spam bolt of Tzeentch, which is pretty good against vehicles, though admittedly not quite as good tongue. As for hordes, that's a generic problem in the list, generally though, with 3 shots each, horrors sort it quite well. I'll admit though, the S6 flamer is tempting.

[==Me==]

Tongue is nice, but BS3 really kills it for ==Me==. Bolt is good and plentiful at solid BS, but S8 really hurts it. I like Screamers, they work on anything short of Monos and do it extremely well.

 

Nurgle/Tzeentch is potentially nasty. Nurgle adds a lot of staying power to the normally fragile Tzeentch Daemons while Tzeentch provides all the anti-tank and speed Nurgle forces normally lack. For killing power, look no further than Nurgle DPs. T6, noxious touch, and optional wings make this beast a real killer. He can wipe the floor with comparable MCs, heavy infantry, and even handle vehicles. While your Horrors and Flamers mess up infantry, Nurgle DPs mop up the big stuff.

[Razormind]

I am building a Nurgle Tzeentch force now, see my thread on Daemon Army in 30 days.

 

I am fielding screamers, can blow tanks up, and also turbo boost to the objective late in a game to contest or take.

 

Nurgleentch for the win!

[Inquisitor_Fox]

i am building (and playing) a predominantly Nurgle/ Txeentch army, though it does have a smattering of Slaanesh in it, mostly cos when 15 daemonettes charge they get 60 attacks... but anyhows....

 

I play the nasty Winged Nurgle DP, and i am making a Tzeentch one to go with him based on the Night Bringer model.

 

Against even horde armies this combo can work, especially if you include an SG.

 

We can hurt them, very, very badly, horrors and Flamers in concert followed by your DP hitting with Breath of Chaos and a charge is an absolute killer (seen it run off a massive squad of boys - 1 WNDP, 2*3 Flamers, 1*10 Horrors, they all fell back except one squad of flamers who took the next charge and died, but then i annihilated em with the same tactic minus 9 shots)

 

The most survivable unit i have ever played with in 10 years of gaming has to be the Beasts of Nurgle, these massive joyful slug monsters are almost unkillable, especially if you hug cover, and being big they tend to draw fire, always take as many as you think you can afford.

 

PB are great at staying on the board. I've had squads stand up to nasty mass firing and come out fine (6 Vs the combined fire of 30 dire avengers and survive their combined charge - a whole 5 squad guard platoon, 2 heavy weapon squads and 4 left out of 10, doesn't sound like much but it absorbed so much fire that the next turn my Daemonettes ate half the platoon, gotta love close order drill fireing lines with flank charges).

 

Now Nurglings, very useful for clogging up the enemy and giving the rest of your Nurgle contingent 4+ Cover saves whilst they sit and hold the objective, and they are the cheepest unit in the army (i think), though they are swarms so they take double wounds from template/ blast weapons and they cannot hold objectives.

 

Horrors are great fun (and with the aid of the changeling at only 5 points), they can do some serious damage to horde armies. 3 strength 4 shots at ap 4+ is nasty, and hurts the shootiest army of them all, the tau... **giggles**

 

I have never fielded screamers... i dont like the fact that they are anti armour and have cack WS... so no tactical opinion here.

 

Flamers are my second fav unit in the army... the combo of Warp Fire and Breath of Chaos they hurt tanks, horde, MEQ... well anything that gets thrown at them if they are used properly...

 

i cant really think of much more to say, and it sounds like dinner is ready sooooo....

 

Ciao guys

[Captain Malachi]

The most survivable unit i have ever played with in 10 years of gaming has to be the Beasts of Nurgle, these massive joyful slug monsters are almost unkillable, especially if you hug cover, and being big they tend to draw fire, always take as many as you think you can afford.

Sorry, but I can't agree with this, for more than twice the points, you get a unit that is only twice as survivable, thanks to having 2 wounds, than plaguebearers, however, they aren't scoring, which is the whole point of nurgle, to hold ground.... so why take units that aren't actually able to do that? Point for point, plaguebearers are better, and taking beasts means you get no flamers, which are far more useful.

[Inquisitor_Fox]

the people i regularly play against fear these little guys for some reaseon... so i always take em as they are a bigger fire magnet than my DP

[==Me==]

Screamers don't use WS to hit vehicles, it's based on the target's movement (or 6's for walkers).

 

Otherwise I'd tend to agree with you. BoNs are tough, but their biggest downside is competing with Fiends, Bloodcrushers, and Flamers for Elite slots. If they were anywhere else I'd take a couple for simply tying enemies down.

[Draakur]

Wow, thanks for all the awesome feedback guys, this is all useful stuff for me and I'm glad it's generating discussion.

 

 

*Razormind: Yep, I was the first person to reply to your topic. Will be good to watch a force of the same gods I'm interested in grow and evolve.

 

*howard the coward: Thanks, I'll keep him in mind. He's expensive! But looks like he can really lay the smack down, and 6 wounds, wow. Am I right in thinking he can't move if he wants to use necrotic missiles that turn?

 

*Inquisitor_Fox: Thanks man, lots of help. Glad Nurgle/Tzeentch is solid enough to be getting done by others :whistling:

 

 

Picked up my codex and it does seem like this is doable, though almost certainly some DPs, SGs or GDs will be necessary to do some bigger damage, as has been said. Big tick for the flamers, and possible tick on screamers atm, will see. Not so sure about the BoN, or nurglings actually, from what I'm reading it seems like plaguebearers could tie down units fine, but I'll need to learn more here.

 

 

I've got a barrel-load of questions, some of which I know will be answered in other threads in here (so I won't ask them), but some I'm not sure on. I really hope I'm not asking too much here, but if anyone's willing to help me learn about this stuff I'd be appreciative :)

 

- I'm not seeing FNP or S&P in the codex here, so not entirely sure what they do (which makes my understanding of BoN kind of unclear). Is this in the 40k rulebook somewhere or?

 

- Does anyone think much of the blue scribes? They look kinda cool to me, with protection I could see them potentially dealing a lot of damage for their points cost, but then I don't know much about 5th ed. :P What do people think?

 

- Are heralds just a style thing? It seems to me that we'd usually just be better off with a GD or one of the special characters instead of heralds, but I really can't tell. Heralds atleast seem to be customisable and able to be tailored to specific roles, is that what makes them worth taking over other choices sometimes?

 

- Do people ever use boon of mutation? I don't even know what a toughness test is haha, but if it is what I think it is then this could potentially be very handy. Anyone found this can be made good use of?

 

- Also, with all these other potentially awesome choices, what do people think of furies? They're pretty cheap considering their S/T of 4, 2 attacks and jumping. Or are they just not worth it over other choices?

 

 

So far all I'm really certain on is probably 2 squads of plaguebearers, one squad of horrors (with changeling), probably 2 squads of flamers, and maybe 2 DPs. Time to do more reading :) Thanks for all the help so far everyone.

[==Me==]

FNP and S&P are covered in the rulebook. Since Ku'Gath has S&P he can fire his necrotic missiles and keep moving, but he's a tad slower. And FNP keeps your units around twice as long.

 

Blue Scribes has a lot of powers, but with the random roll he isn't all that reliable. I'd take him for a fluff choice or if you were trying for 2 pavanes or bolts.

 

Any Herald except Nurgle ones are great. They make for inexpensive HQs that can do some serious damage and you can fit 2 in each HQ slot. Nurgle Heralds are awful, it's Epidemius or nothing with these guys. Khorne Heralds rip MEQs up and with unholy might they can even go toe-to-toe with MCs, Slaanesh Heralds are really cheap for all the rending attacks they dish out, and Tzeentch Heralds are all about cheap dakka (and some reliable anti-tank for a reasonable price). I like ==My== Heralds in chariots mostly (Khorne Herald in chariot = cheaper DP with lower WS, Slaanesh chariot is a super-Fiend, Tzeentch chariot is a flying gunship).

 

Boon is good for sniping out powerfists and ICs or trying to take out MCs. It isn't all that reliable and costs a fair bit, but you can use it in combat and anything that has access to it usually has a good BS so they can hit with it. It's situational.

 

Furies suck, sorry. For the same points you can take Flesh Hounds, which are better in almost every way (high WS, furious charge, more attacks, Karanak) or for 2 points more you get Seekers (crap-ton of attacks, high I, grenades, rending).

[Draakur]

Thanks for the getback ==Me==, and the run through on FNP and S&P. I'll get the rulebook soon and look this all up.

 

Hah I hadn't even realised until you mentioned it that you can get 2 heralds per HQ. Nice! I do like the look of Epidimius, he seems *extremely* cheap for the impact he could potentially have (especially if I go for 2 squads of plaguebearers and a nurgle DP to get the kills up). I just looked at the chariot of Tzeentch... ;) that's a lot of wounds along with all that shooting. I really do like the idea of the Blue Scribes hah, partially just for the fluff side of it, but they also seem pretty versatile, and I'd love to see what can be done about a model for them. I may well end up keeping these guys in as an HQ.

 

I don't think I'll go out of my way to include boon with a herald or anything, if I do decide to get one. Thanks for the input there. One will be enough, on the Blue Scribes, I think.

 

Yeh ok, can understand what you mean about furies. I guess taking them would be my way of keeping cheap, fast daemons in the army while not verging off into the forces of other gods. Though seeing how much better there is for similar points makes me think I should just spend my points/cash on something more fitting with the theme of my force. I don't even particularly like the idea of furies, they just seemed potentially decent in terms of effectiveness.

 

Much to think on! Again, all this insight helps immensely :)

[Captain Malachi]

Epidemius seems great, but 'cos nurgle forces aren't big killers, you're not likely to get the full bonus until pretty late in the game, unless you go pure nurgle.

Tzeentchian heralds, the ones I assume you plan to take, are pretty good for anti-tank, give it bolt of tzeentch and we are legion, shove it in a unit of horrors and use it to shoot tanks while the rest of the unit shoots any infantry that gets close, you can give it master of sorcery so you can add to the anti-infantry firepower if you wish.

I've never been all that amazed by boon, slightly overcosted for what it actually does.

As ==Me== said, furies suck, screamers are a better use of your FA slots, although, come to think of it, if you did take them, they'd probably be one of the stronger HTH units in your army, just something to think about.

The Blue Scribes I actually like, it's the only way to get pavane in a nurgle-tzeentch army, though I wouldn't use them in my army, they might do well in yours.

[Razormind]

Changing enemies into Chaos Spawn is fun, but really hard against MC or IC's. Sometimes though, hit a low toughness model and watch the spawn fun begin :-)

 

Toughness test is just rolling higher than the target model toughness to turn them into a spawn. 6 always succeeds, so there is always that chance you turn Marneus Calgar into a spawn (epic!)

 

I have Fateweaver in my army, and he gets that power already, whee!!!

[Raptor1313]

Yeah, but Spawn isn't so reliable.

 

As Daemons in general, we're letting the dice do a lot of talking for us (in terms of dicing off for deployment, and then deep-striking it).

 

I concur with the whole 'daemons can look like anything' idea; I'm working on a conversion-heavy Daemon Forge themed-army myself. Going with Wood Elf Dryads as plaguebearers, and I'd check out the fantasy range of plastics for modeling opportunities.

 

I think the Daemons are decent troop-heavy, at least for Nurgle/Tzeentch. I think Fateweaver is a solid choice, since he's a major durability booster for your army. (...albeit, balanced out by the part where he occasionally violently falls off the board after a single wound...).

 

Plaguebearers are ok in combat, but as others have said, they're more for holding down an area/objective/Icon and calling in backup.

 

Tzeentch DOES have some uberkilly units in the form of Flamers. Three units of three for your elites is a truly sick way to use them; after someone's on the wrong end of them you'll get a lot of cries of 'broken', but they will mulch just about anything they can get the Breath of Chaos on.

 

I'd also consider Soul Grinders for the melee potential, and the phlegm.

 

I think that the Blue SCribes, while sort of novel, are also a bit more random than we might want. That whole 'watch this' ability is...iffy. You can at best rely on him to do one thing you want, and after that, if he does the second thing? Good. Otherwise, you get a double-tap that might or might not be useful. (IE: fire two Bolt of Tzeentch into something. Or, Pavane something twice, which is useless).

[Draakur]

Thanks for keeping this moving guys.

 

Yeh boon doesn't seem worth buying for someone specifically. I'm still somewhat set on the Blue Scribes at this stage though haha, if only because they seem a characterful and wacky kind of choice, fun if nothing else ^_^

 

Yep, flamers all the way haha. Two squads of three sounds about right at this stage.

 

Fateweaver and Ku'Gath both seem like awesome choices right now, and I'm actually beginning to think I should just go with one of them for an HQ instead of dabbling with heralds, for now atleast. I want to have a Nurglesque DP, so would like to balance my big guys out a bit with a Tzeentchian HQ, which leads me to Fateweaver. I'm wondering though... oracle only works for squads within 6", and I'm kind of under the impression we spend a lot of our games up close, as daemons... isn't being that close to the melee carnage a bit of a risk for Fateweaver? His statline isn't that hot. Any experience or insight on how this pans out?

 

Question re: dryads

This sounds awesome... could this be done, specifically at official stores? For awhile atleast, I'll probably only be playing at my local GW when I get this going, so I wouldn't want to buy a stack of dryad plaguebearers only to find the GW staff wouldn't allow it. I really like this idea, fits perfectly with Nurgle's rotten/aged wood theme, but I won't bother if I can't use them in-store.

[==Me==]

I'm actually starting to think that the Blue Scribes woudn't be all that bad. Lead off with Bolt or Pavane and you could end up firing it twice, plus you've got other options to use if need be. A normal Herald is cheaper and "Watch This!" isn't all that reliable but it could be fun.

 

Ku'Gath looks nice, but remember that you could get 2 normal GUOs for the same price.

 

Fateweaver is extremely good and with his ability he can keep Daemons around a lot longer. 6" seems short, but if you use his speed and spread your units out you can cover plenty of area. I prefer to sit him next to shooters and have assaulters charge out of his bubble, but you could have him sit behind combats, maybe surrounded by friendlies to keep the enemy from getting to him. Worst comes to worst, he's still a T5 MC with a 3+ re-rollable save and can be rescued by his buddies.

 

Re: dryads, it will depend on how your local store operates. Dryads are GW models and if you convert and paint them up there shouldn't be any problems.

[Captain Malachi]

Dryads should be fine, but just to be on the safeside, GS them up a bit and don't just paint them pink and call it done, make them special. I've never liked Kairos personally, but that's mostly as he doesn't fit into my army, with 5 MCs and fairly resilient troops, re-rollable saves aren't all that great, however, in a Nurgle/Tzeentch army, he might be worth taking. Ku'gath I'd only take in mono-Nurgle personally, since he's just too expensive otherwise. The Blue Scribes "watch this!" ability is easy to mitigate, just always use the same power each turn, e.g. use gaze twice on two different infantry units, or use bolt twice on a tank. Flamers = the win, no doubt about it, if I had the points I'd use them in my daemonzilla army, and I do use them in my balanced army.