Guest kazzy Posted November 24, 2008 Share Posted November 24, 2008 first of all why did, at the climax of the battle, horus lower his sheilds? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/153098-the-final-battle/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logain the Ranger Posted November 24, 2008 Share Posted November 24, 2008 With the Space Wolves and Dark Angels en-route to Terra, I believe Horus tried to end it with one fell stroke. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/153098-the-final-battle/#findComment-1784174 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razrhaghul Posted November 24, 2008 Share Posted November 24, 2008 until and if they cover it one of the novels, it's all speculation. pride is one Horus was overconfident, either that his father would perish below on Terra along with his former brothers, or that he welcomed the Emperor to a final challenge. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/153098-the-final-battle/#findComment-1784412 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacific81 Posted November 24, 2008 Share Posted November 24, 2008 This is a great question, and one that has been answered only a number of times, and with questionable reliability in some of these cases. Some of the older sources (going back to around 2nd edition 40k, such as the rulebook) state that it was unknown whether Horus lowered his shields to witness his fathers death, or in a final vestiage of regret over what he had done. Next the Codex Chaos (I believe 3rd edition was the 1st) stated that time was running out for the Heresy - Horus' forces were smashing against the walls of the Emperor's palace, and the Dark Angels and Space Wolves were approaching from the rear. Horus needed to make a decisive move, and gambled it all in a final gambit to destroy the Emperor, knowing that by lowering his shields the Emperor would be compelled to come and face him. The Collected Visions series continues this idea over what happened (IMO a shame, as I kind of liked the 'regret' idea of the older material!) Horus lowers his shields - knowing that the final battle is approaching the Emperor first tells Sanguinius and Dorn that he will go alone to Horus' battle barge. The two Primarchs swear that they will go with him, and so they all teleport to the ship along with a force of Custodes. However, something has gone wrong and the loyalists find themselves split throughout the ship, with each warrior forced to face some of the worst forces of Chaos imaginable. Gradually the Custodes with the Emperor are killed - only when he is alone does Horus allow him to face him. Older sources concerning the battle state that after a mighty fight, the Emperor is able to slay Horus through the rent in his armour created during Horus' battle with Sanguinius, which the fallen angel was able to make as he was slain. However, once more this has been ret-conned in Collected Visions - In this account, the Emperor then finds Horus standing over the body of the now dead Sanguinius. After some short words, the two battle, the Emperor being badly wounded as he cannot bring himself to slay his most beloved of sons. However, then a surviving custodes charges into the room to try and slay Horus - with only a thought Horus reduces the brave marine to a pile of dust ( I believe he also cackles at this point). The Emperor finally realises that nothing he remembers of Horus remains within him - only a corrupted lackey of Chaos, and using all his psychic power he slays Horus and destroys him utterly, despite feeling a final regret as Horus shows some awareness of what he has done. However, he is left mortally wounded by his battle, and is then found by Dorn who has finally found his way to the chambers of Horus. We all know the rest of the story from this point. Considering that the Horus Heresy book series have followed Collected Visions almost to the letter so far (with Alan Merrett orchestrating both) I would not be suprised if they continue to do so and portray the final battle in a similar manner. Whatever, I don't envy whoever gets the final task of writing this in novel form - there is going to be just so much criticism and hope for Horus to be portrayed one way or the other! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/153098-the-final-battle/#findComment-1784450 Share on other sites More sharing options...
assault-captainaetion Posted November 24, 2008 Share Posted November 24, 2008 I've heard a briliant theory concerning the battle on the vengeful spirit - - Look at the artwork of the battle between the emperor and horus - Sanguinius has a single cut across the the chest - Horus isn't using a sword - The Emperor, however, is. Just a point I'd thought I'd make. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/153098-the-final-battle/#findComment-1784458 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imperialis_Dominatus Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 Horus is, however, using a Lightning Claw. While that would generally make more than one cut, conclusions can be drawn... But then WAIT! THE EMPEROR HAS A CLAW TOO! :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/153098-the-final-battle/#findComment-1784724 Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnlyInDeath Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 What I would like to know is how a being so omniscient and omnipotent as the Emperor ( theroetically able to psychically take on ALL the chaos gods at once and prove a viable opponent) would be able to be brought low by the likes of Horus, just a chaos champion (theroetically the equal of, say, a chapter master, of which there would be many per legion, as there would be many chaos champs). My personal theory is that the emperor could not bring himself to bring down on of his own son (as any parent could attest) and that is the reason he was able to be defeated. As far as why Horus lowered the shields...I would say it's the arrogance born of chaos, as it so often is. But then again, this is the opinion of a loyalist... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/153098-the-final-battle/#findComment-1784738 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imperialis_Dominatus Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 Actually, OnlyInDeath, you've got some canonical ideas in there. The Emperor did have difficulty slaying His own son, and that's why He hesitated. And also Horus was possessed by all four Gods of Chaos at the same time. Of course, the Emperor scared the bejeesus out of them when He did His Soul Destroying Attack of Ultimate Doom and General Unpleasantness to the Enemy. Horus was far more than a Chaos Champion, he was kinda their avatar. He started as a Primarch, too. So that tells you something of his power. The Emperor essentially killing him in one hit, though, tells you something about His as well. Make of that what you will. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/153098-the-final-battle/#findComment-1784757 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacific81 Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 I think even before he was given power by the chaos gods, Horus was foremost amonst the Primarchs - so I guess if you were to pick one individual in the galaxy who was closest to the Emp in terms of raw power it would have to be him (being able to disintegrate a custodes just through an extension of will being one example of this). As Imperialis_Dominatus says, the Emp hesistated to kill his most beloved of sons, until he truly realised what had become of him, and this is how he was so grievously wounded. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/153098-the-final-battle/#findComment-1785006 Share on other sites More sharing options...
assault-captainaetion Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 As you pointed out - there would be more than one cut on him. Which makes more sense - Horus used a single claw to kill Sanguinius or the Emperor used his sword? Occum's razor people. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/153098-the-final-battle/#findComment-1785275 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucifer Fellblade Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 With the Space Wolves and Dark Angels en-route to Terra, I believe Horus tried to end it with one fell stroke. This is pretty much the answer I'd definetly go with, with the whole emphasis on Horus' favourite tactic being the strike for the heart/leader of the enemy emphasised so much in the HH books (Ullanor, the "Emperor", Istvaan) and the fact is had to be the Vengeful Spirit to start the firestorm on Istvaan (which was apparently typical Horus behaviour) and the way Horus states more than once that he always wins even from the worst odds, it's and easy speculation to make that Horus saw the loyalists incoming and came to the conclusion that it would have to be him to end the fight because only he could and that his pride played some part in this, so he employed his favourite tactic, to strike at the heart of the enemy forces. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/153098-the-final-battle/#findComment-1785303 Share on other sites More sharing options...
angronn Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 As you pointed out - there would be more than one cut on him. Which makes more sense - Horus used a single claw to kill Sanguinius or the Emperor used his sword? Occum's razor people. Conspiracy theory about one piece of artwork vs. all written fluff. I know what Occam's Razor would say about that... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/153098-the-final-battle/#findComment-1785427 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Emperor's Champion Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 Horus had bet everything on being able to beat The Emperor before reinforcements could arrive. With the Ultramarines, Dark Angels, and Space Wolves rapidly approaching he desperately tried one last ploy. He blocked all communications to Terra's defenders from the approaching reinforcements and gambled that he was powerful enough to kill The Emperor in single combat. He also gambled that The Emperor would not simply blast them out the sky and would accept the challenge. He did. Aboard the Vengeful Spirit, The Emperor, Sanguius and Dorn were scattered upon arrival. Each had a group of Custodes with them and as they fought through the ship to find Horus and each other. The ship itself was demonically possessed and "ate" a fair share of Custodes. The Emperor kinda blinked his powers at the ship and banished the possessedness (at least where he was). Eventually The Emperor found Horus standing over Sanguinius' mangled body and massacred Custodes. Horus did some taunting. The Emperor said "Why?" Horus did some more taunting. The Emperor tells Horus he is Chaos' pawn, not vice versa. Horus gets all pissy and megalomanaical and starts psychically attacking The Emperor. The Emperor tells Horus he's deluded. Horus rants some more and attacks again. The Emperor Strikes Back(:woot:), physical combat begins. The Emperor is just defending at this point. Horus knocks him around the chamber and through walls. The Emperor could sense the Chaos Gods laughing as they gave Horus more power but still The Emperor held back reluctant to believe Horus was totally lost. Horus was still attacking full-power tho and tore out The Emperor's throat, severed the tendons in his sword arm, broke his ribs, melted part of The Emperor's face, exploded one of his eyes, set his hair on fire, crushed some of his bones, broke his spine and finally ripped his arm from his socket. Then a lone Custode entered the room and without hesitation charged Horus with his Guardian Spear a-blazin. Horus gloated for a moment over The Emperor's mangled body and then blasted the Custode's armor away and disintegrated him. It was then that The Emperor saw no remorse in Horus, and saw that he could not be redeemed. The Custode had loyally served The Emperor for 200 years and to reward him with obliteration so mercilessly, casually, and unceremonially jolted The Emperor. He knew then that he must kill Horus. Then The Emperor killed the Chaos Lord Horus with one attack "more coherent than a laser, more explosive than an exploding sun". As the Chaos Gods abandoned Horus' body finally the real Horus surfaced to feel the pain and remorse of all he had done. He asked that The Emperor finish him because his will was too weak to resist Chaos if he recovered. Thus The Emperor ended Horus' life. Following that Rogal Dorn found them. -very accurately summarized (IMO) from The Horus Heresy: Collected Visions- Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/153098-the-final-battle/#findComment-1785544 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ensis Ferrae Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 dont forget the far-fetched conspiracy theories out there that say that, the Emperor did not kill Horus. Rather that Horus killed his father, and *SOMEHOW* manages to take off his black termie armor, and put on the Emperors golden armor, all before Dorn arrives and takes the "emperor" to the golden throne.... bout the only way that makes sense to me, is the Chaos marines warcry in DoW and various other places: "death to the false emperor!" (horus, obviously not being the REAL emperor, so he'd be a false emperor :P) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/153098-the-final-battle/#findComment-1785616 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asiriya Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 @Emperor's Champion: Really, he took that much punishment before realising he had no hope, on top of having Sanguinious killed? I think he deserves to be in the condition he is. A question though; you say he cleansed the part of the ship he teleported into, why could he not do that with Horus, remove the taint? Because the Gods were so focused no Horus? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/153098-the-final-battle/#findComment-1785646 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 I find it amazingly stupid that the emperor could excuse horus killing sanguinius but took affront at the death of a nameless custodes... angelic brother vs nameless minion...apparently the minion won after all. wolf lord kieran Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/153098-the-final-battle/#findComment-1785733 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 Wolf Lord Kieran Posted Today, 10:30 PM I find it amazingly stupid that the emperor could excuse horus killing sanguinius but took affront at the death of a nameless custodes... angelic brother vs nameless minion...apparently the minion won after all. Well, who would you be more friendly with - the son who's always out conquering the galaxy for you, or the Custodes you go drinking with every Friday night? :D Sanguinius got a nice heroic death, the Custodes just comes in and gets frazzled. Not the most heroic way to go. Sanguinius at least did something to Horus, and mroe importantly, its believed he knew he was going to his doom. I don't think the Emperor could have stopped him coming without resorting to force. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/153098-the-final-battle/#findComment-1785770 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacific81 Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 I find it amazingly stupid that the emperor could excuse horus killing sanguinius but took affront at the death of a nameless custodes... angelic brother vs nameless minion...apparently the minion won after all. wolf lord kieran I suppose up until that point the Emperor did not truly believe that Horus had fallen. It was only when he witnessed this act with his own eyes that all was lost, at least thats the way its written in Collected Visions. I agree though, its not the most logical of conclusions. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/153098-the-final-battle/#findComment-1785849 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Emperor's Champion Posted November 26, 2008 Share Posted November 26, 2008 A question though; you say he cleansed the part of the ship he teleported into, why could he not do that with Horus, remove the taint? Because the Gods were so focused no Horus? I'd assume so. If he could banish all 4 Chaos gods with the blink of an eye.....the term "God-Emperor" wouldn't seem to be quite grand enough.... Nameless minion!??? No. I don't think so. This was one of his personal bodyguards who'd served him for 200 years. We may not know his name, but I'm sure as hell The Emperor did. I do think it had to do with the Custodes being among The Emperor's few actual friends (since basically no one but Primarchs, Malcador and the Custodes are allowed to speak to him without ceremony and permission etc) and the fact that it was a man he'd seen daily for 200 years who just died without hesitation trying to come to his defense. As valuable as the Primarchs were and even if they are technically his sons The Emperor didn't know most of them all that well. Plus, not having seen the battle between Sanguinius and Horus he could've had all manner of doubts cross his mind as to what went down. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/153098-the-final-battle/#findComment-1785975 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted November 26, 2008 Share Posted November 26, 2008 okay, maybe nameless minion was a bit harsh, but c'mon. sanguinius was supposed to be the most perfect of primarchs, even horus held him in special esteem. the emperor doesnt flip out after months of siege, and then finding sangy's corspe in front of horus. its the death custodes "redshirt" that really flips his switch. atleast in my opinion, lame. wolf lord kieran Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/153098-the-final-battle/#findComment-1786069 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sons of Horus Posted November 26, 2008 Share Posted November 26, 2008 well there is actually NO real canon at the moment since all of that stuff is very well outdated. the codex CSM 5th does say however that sometime in the middle of the battle, Horus began to regain his consciousness and began to falter. it says that the real Horus began fighting himself and trying to not kill the emperor. so basically he started holding back sometime during their duel. it can therefore be inferred that Horus was indeed not fighting with his own full powers either. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/153098-the-final-battle/#findComment-1786332 Share on other sites More sharing options...
sgtNACHO Posted November 26, 2008 Share Posted November 26, 2008 In other words... The Emperor is all like "Horus, you may have killed Sanguinius, killed thousands of Space Marines, fallen to chaos, be attacking terra, practically destroyed the salies, raven guard, and iron hands, and are beinga prissy whiny :cuss, but i believe your just blinded with power, and your still a good person." Horus "I hate you old man, shut the :cuss up. I am with the Chaos Gods now :P , I am Chaos :devil: . Your pathetic legions will all die by my armies... But wait you are my dad and the guy who isn't really killing me at the moment, or doing jack for that matter, im gonna kill you a little slower. Hey you Custodes boy, go away this is father-son bonding time (blasts Custodes into dust)" Emperor "YOU KILLED MY CUSTODES. YOU KILLED FRANK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :tu: You have gone to far Horus. Prepare to get wasted." Horus "Son of a :cuss" Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/153098-the-final-battle/#findComment-1786417 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted November 26, 2008 Share Posted November 26, 2008 you know what sgtNACHO, i think it went exactly like that...makes more sense than most of GW's material. lol. wolf lord kieran Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/153098-the-final-battle/#findComment-1786764 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terminatorinhell Posted November 26, 2008 Share Posted November 26, 2008 In other words... The Emperor is all like "Horus, you may have killed Sanguinius, killed thousands of Space Marines, fallen to chaos, be attacking terra, practically destroyed the salies, raven guard, and iron hands, and are beinga prissy whiny :cuss, but i believe your just blinded with power, and your still a good person." Horus "I hate you old man, shut the :cuss up. I am with the Chaos Gods now :D , I am Chaos ;) . Your pathetic legions will all die by my armies... But wait you are my dad and the guy who isn't really killing me at the moment, or doing jack for that matter, im gonna kill you a little slower. Hey you Custodes boy, go away this is father-son bonding time (blasts Custodes into dust)" Emperor "YOU KILLED MY CUSTODES. YOU KILLED FRANK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :lol: You have gone to far Horus. Prepare to get wasted." Horus "Son of a :cuss" AHA now it all makes sense to me :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/153098-the-final-battle/#findComment-1786796 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Emperor's Champion Posted November 26, 2008 Share Posted November 26, 2008 well there is actually NO real canon at the moment since all of that stuff is very well outdated. Actually that is canon at the moment. The Horus Heresy: Collected Visions is still in print and it's what all the Horus Heresy novels are based on. The novels are just adding details and giving named characters background stories. But yea, see it was Frank's murder that was the first one The Emperor saw with his own eyes. As pissed off and reluctant as Dorn was to believe Horus would do all that I imagine The Emperor was still just as reluctant until he saw it with his own eyes. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/153098-the-final-battle/#findComment-1786963 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.