Using blood claws effectively

[spectre312]

My bloodclaws seem to just die. right away. squish. like expendable little over priced gaurdsmen. So, I've been thinking, is it because the enemy fears them? or is it because I use them in a roll they aren't suited for? I always deploy them in cover, and I try to rush them into the enemies weak spot for some cc mauling, but they're always dead before they get there.... any advice from you hardened war fiends?

[Captain Malachi]

Rhinos? Actually, can they even take rhinos?

[Wolf89]

Rhinos? Actually, can they even take rhinos?

 

Yes they can, but I usually save my rhinos for my grey hunters.

 

As for their best transport, nothing beats a well calculated assault from a LRC... you can fit 11 in there with an HQ and 4 fenrisian wolves and watch the enemy cower! ;)

 

I rarely use them, mainly because they're not as good as grey hunters, or the fact they're not as good as grey hunters, either way, they're just not as good as grey hunters... :D

 

If you MUST field them, then I suggest large squads (15 3+ with cover saves if you can manage) will survive a lot, just don't prone them to enemy fire by template ordinance or something. Also they're a great unit to run behind rhinos (carrying those better grey hunters) that can then help with the counter assault.

[Vassakov]

Interesting Wolf89, that is almost the opposite to my use of Blood Claws.

 

I use them in the style of the fluff - a brutal CC unit that, in the words of Lord Solar Macharius:

 

The Blood Claws of the Space Wolves endanger not only themselves but the lives of their comrades in arms. If they are so eager to die, and will not heed the words of their superiors, then let them rush headlong into the jaws of the lion. We can only hope some of them get stuck in it's throat.

 

My preferred method of delivery is the afore mentioned LRC, backed up by a WGPL and an IC. With the LRC they'll probably get the initial charge off and will go through most units like a hot knife through butter - 15 Astartes is good for no ones health. The thing about Blood Claws is they have to be kept mobile, leaping from combat to combat - the new USR for Counter Attack is invaluable in this instance. They are my shock troops, taking the fight to the enemy and pushing them back. The Grey Hunters mop up and snatch objectives.

[Wolf89]

Interesting Wolf89, that is almost the opposite to my use of Blood Claws.

 

I use them in the style of the fluff - a brutal CC unit that, in the words of Lord Solar Macharius:

 

The Blood Claws of the Space Wolves endanger not only themselves but the lives of their comrades in arms. If they are so eager to die, and will not heed the words of their superiors, then let them rush headlong into the jaws of the lion. We can only hope some of them get stuck in it's throat.

 

My preferred method of delivery is the afore mentioned LRC, backed up by a WGPL and an IC. With the LRC they'll probably get the initial charge off and will go through most units like a hot knife through butter - 15 Astartes is good for no ones health. The thing about Blood Claws is they have to be kept mobile, leaping from combat to combat - the new USR for Counter Attack is invaluable in this instance. They are my shock troops, taking the fight to the enemy and pushing them back. The Grey Hunters mop up and snatch objectives.

 

Don't get me wrong, the tactics with the LRC and bashing into the enemy's front line is well known, and it does wonders. However I was trying to inform spec312 about how to better hide his troops when he uses them on foot (as he's already explained he's been using).

 

Also I like my Space Wolves under control, it's hard to play water warrior when you have fire shooting in the middle of your tide. :mellow:

[G. A. K.]

Make no mistake, they are a big threat and thats atleast half the reason they die. To maximize thier potential its good to take them in large numbers (atleast 11+WGPL; for the3 special weapons) paired with a RP for moving cover saves no matter what.

 

The most important thing in my view of the SW is this:

Your whole army list IS the pack, each squad in that army represents a wolf in that pack. Only when the wolves work together are thier goals realized. A wolf on its own will get into trouble.

[Roguemarine]

i'm a fan of running 2 big units on foot each with a WGL and then another unit in the standard LR with 1 HQ and 11 BC's, then you have your scouts that OBEL...now you should be able to get 2 of those units across and crush a side between them and your scouts.

[spectre312]

I had a 1500 point match today against the dark eldar.

 

My Blood claws got wailed on first round of shooting. the 3 survivors were able to charge into close combat, and were the last three models on the board. Actually, one of them was charged by 10 cc eldar while engaged by 4. 34 attacks!!!! he failed his last save to lose me the game....

 

So, yeah, i hate dark eldar, but atleast my claws did SOMETHING for once. I play a drop pod based force, and I'm starting to think the claws might not fit into it.

[Wolf89]

I had a 1500 point match today against the dark eldar.

 

My Blood claws got wailed on first round of shooting. the 3 survivors were able to charge into close combat, and were the last three models on the board. Actually, one of them was charged by 10 cc eldar while engaged by 4. 34 attacks!!!! he failed his last save to lose me the game....

 

So, yeah, i hate dark eldar, but atleast my claws did SOMETHING for once. I play a drop pod based force, and I'm starting to think the claws might not fit into it.

 

Dark eldar can be tough. I've only beaten them on a regular basis while playing 13th company, otherwise it's a crap shoot for me usually. The 2 players that play them have multiple armies, have been playing since RTrader and 2nd ed. and go to RTT's and the GT on a regular basis so it's no walk in the park.

 

Probably the best advice I can give you is make sure to take your WTN's... those wyches are brutal.

[WG Vrox]

I heard 11 of them 1PF 2PW in a line about 5" in front of my Vindicator.

 

Just a simple 6" Forward Move, Fire, Send in the BCs to mop up. Rinse Repeat. They provide cover to the Vindicator. My RP provides cover for them or the tank depending on the need.

 

If the enemy is lacking in Anti-Tank, they run behind and will do a RUN the turn before the Vindi fire.

 

This is a new tactic and worked very well in the last game, however it was only one game I tested it in sooo.

 

Reason for the change was my Vindicator in a game was taken out by a lone PF assult. The Vindi killed the entire squad but 1 and hey look that guys has a PF and then hey look I have no Vindi.

 

So now I understand why in real war tactics they say tanks will not survive long on the battlefield without infantry support.

 

WG Vrox

[Wolf89]

Reason for the change was my Vindicator in a game was taken out by a lone PF assult. The Vindi killed the entire squad but 1 and hey look that guys has a PF and then hey look I have no Vindi.

 

You mean the reason you take the vindi is because I tell you all to right? :cuss

 

It's not a bad tactic, similar to mine with the rhinos and vindis using the BC's behind them or in front, simple and effective.

[spectre312]

yeah...wyches.... they destroyed my iron clad like he wasn't even armored. they sneezed and he exploded..... but 3 bloodclaws did manage to wipe out almost a whole raider squad. and the raider. so I give them credit this time. but I'm still not sure I like them much.

[Level]

Wow, I'm really surprised to hear that so many of my wolf brothers are not so sure about the young pups in their lists.

 

Since the changes in 5th i have nbeen finding that the BC's have become a very viable option and it's mainly because of the new counter attack rules.

All we have to do is get charged and if we pass a leadership check then it's just as if we were the ones that were charging, +2 attacks all round. with 11BCs and a WGL with a pair of lightning claws (helps with the better leadership) and three power fists in the mix this is a very scary prospect for any opponent.

 

I do feel thought that a delivery system is pretty necessary to get the pups up close and personal otherwise they will be shot up. I like to put them in a drop pod. pop a flamer template and 10 bolt pistols as they arrive to weaken the wyches up a little, (amazing the effect that a flamer can have on their pansy armour) and then it's got to be avery desperate DE player that will charge you from there.

 

I find that most of my opponents get a very nasty surprise when they charge into a pack of blood claws expecting to clean up only to find that I'm doing more attacks than they are.

 

I find that the LRC route is just a little expensive though, you are putting so many points into one unit.

[Magnus Aurelius]

I've been using BC with a LRC, 12 of them with 3 PF's, a flamer and a wolf lord in it. They can be a greta unit, if you can get them where you want them to be. But the thing with them is that you need to either kill or make your opponent flee, other wise they will be counter charged, and that sucks ><.

 

Still, i love them.

 

Magnus Aurelius

[Grey Mage]

I run a full squad in my lists, with a trio of powerfists. Ive built lists with other amounts in them.... but I dont count on them as game winners in a general sense. Hunters are more adaptable and more effective on the whole I find.

 

Wich isnt to say they dont have their uses.... wonderful spearhead unit, good to stick in a position to tie up a large number of the enemy and then prepare to wipe out whatever walks away.... good in the LRC as noted, and fun to throw at ork mobs and gaunt hordes. If they arent in an LRC though theyre footsloggin it as I dont think it a good use of points to put 10 in a rhino no one else can use... rather give it to a GH pack.

 

I might run a smaller group in a full podding list, but I havent been able to experiment with that as much as Id like, and most of my test runes are pure GH anyways.

 

I've been using BC with a LRC, 12 of them with 3 PF's, a flamer and a wolf lord in it. They can be a greta unit, if you can get them where you want them to be. But the thing with them is that you need to either kill or make your opponent flee, other wise they will be counter charged, and that sucks ><.

 

Still, i love them.

 

Magnus Aurelius

As for that though.... I love it when they get charged after assaulting. It means I have a chance to double their attacks again! and triple the powerfist attacks too for that matter.

 

Is wonderful... I wish I could have opponents who did it every round..... mmmmm.... crunchy.

[deedark]

Know what you mean charge double attacks batter your opponent - they think right I'll even things up and charge the combat with another

unit and bang counterattack and unit 2 is battered as well.

 

My BCs 2 x PW and 1 x Fist plus flamer usually with a WGPL with Fist/PP or Fist/BP

 

D.

[Wolf89]

This rule cannot be used if, when assaulted, the unitwas already locked in combat from a previous turn.

BBB pg. 74

 

Maybe I'm not understanding what you guys are saying, but from what I can gather you're saying after you assault, then get charged afterwards you get more attacks? If this is the case then refer to my quote where you can't do this.

[Ranek Icewalker]

Well, I love the idea of the 15 BCs in a Land raider with a wolf priest patroling their kennels, that is why the people at my shops(and possibly the other stores), but some of our stores(our store has like 8 space wolf players), so they all the land raider crusader the kennel, so im pretty sure that you could fit that into a 1500-2k game, and im pretty sure that you will be okay(except for against necrons), but im sure that your land raider would be a good investment and it would protect your beserkers.

[Vassakov]

Aye, you can't Counter Attack if you already in combat - so don't pick on a unit you can't take out quickly.

 

Funniest thing I did was drive a LRC full of Blood Claws towards 30 Guardsman who'd flanked me and charged the two infantry squads (20 men) with 12 BC's and a WGPL. I lost one BC, he found his remaining 4 men had a Ld check at -17. They failed and were run down.

 

Annoyingly, the remaining 10 or so Guard were two command platoons, including a Power Weapon, 2 Power Fists and 3 Plasma Pistols. By the end, only his Officer and Commissar were left... fortunately the LRC was on "back-up."

[Magnus Aurelius]

Aye, you can't Counter Attack if you already in combat - so don't pick on a unit you can't take out quickly.

 

That would be excactly what i meant. I do not mind them getting charged if they are not in combat. But if they get stuck in combat for even one turn they are in trouble. Yesterday, i played against a friend of mine, and i got my 12 BC with 3 PF, flamer and a wolflord with SS, WP and FB in combat with a unit of 10 guardians. Due to him saving 7 out of 8 wounds, 2 managed to survive, which resulted in the unit being charged by banshees and an avatar. Things went downhill from there....

 

On the other hand, in another game yesterday the unit managed to wipe out 2 tactical squads of 10 man strong in one round of combat.

 

Magnus Aurelius

[TAVAAR]

I actually like BC's quite a bit. Usually hitting on 4's, but then your doing that with GH too, you just get hit on 3's.

 

I take 10 with 2PF just in case I hit something I need to take out like a Big Bug or IC, they have a decant chance of making my opponent think twice before repeating it. Rhino's I still reserve 75% of the time for my GH as you can't assault out if you moved. I think that while the LRC with mass BC might work well, they people I ussually play against run lots of melta weapons and so LRC's are just a point sink waiting to bankrupt me.

One thing I'm not even going to try is DP's. Usually the BC's will get shot up too much before they can assault effectively and they don't get assaulted except to finish off the aforementioned survivors.

 

If they aren't in an LRC though they're footsloggin it as I don't think it a good use of points to put 10 in a rhino no one else can use... rather give it to a GH pack.

 

Actually now in 5th any transport vehicle, even dedicated, can be used on any unit. The dedicated transports just have to start with the unit they were purchased with, but after they drop off the cargo of Wolfy death they can run back and rush around other units as well.

[Wolf89]

If they aren't in an LRC though they're footsloggin it as I don't think it a good use of points to put 10 in a rhino no one else can use... rather give it to a GH pack.

 

Actually now in 5th any transport vehicle, even dedicated, can be used on any unit. The dedicated transports just have to start with the unit they were purchased with, but after they drop off the cargo of Wolfy death they can run back and rush around other units as well.

 

It specifically says in our codex that they can't use it as a "taxi".

[Grey Mage]

But only for bloodclaws.... so give your grey hunters rhinos, and your bloodclaws better boots.

[spectre312]

well, i used them a little better today. I went up against some sisters in a 2k....and the first time they charged out of that LRC with the rune pirests and delivered a total of 49 hits at initiative into a unit he cover he kinda pooped himself. it was a cool round of cc for me too. :)

 

 

 

of course, he fired everything he had into them after that. which was......alot. 4 immolators came up, two full squads of sisters...faith for ap1....couldn't make all the saves :( wiped out one turn

[Grey Mage]

Wich is why you dont want to win combat first turn.... you want to win it almost on the first turn. And give them close range support- bolter hunters in a rhino or drop pod works just fine, especially when coupled with the crusaders own firepower.

 

Unless its a 30+ strong ork mob use your firepower on something other than what your charging. I might also reccommend using a wolf priest with them instead of a run priest... give him hp+B. Against AP 1 bolters it wont help much, but against anything less overwhelming itll help quite a bit.