Special Characters: Lame

[the jeske]

ehh yeah but taking about venguard is like talking about the use of possessed in chaos dex . its a dead option and thats it . stern guard are only played with cantor etc .I dont care about the "ultra view" of the book , because the gunline build sucks hard out of the new sm dex . But what bothers me is that unlike with chaos [1 way to play dex] they still could fit specials in there that change the game play a lot [like khan for example] . If they wanted a ultra smurf dex , they should have left it at the unplayable gunline [i mean they already forced many DIY players to switch to BA/SW/BT , why not force the SW to play DA?] and not make a hybrid dex with stuff like khan . It just makes no sense , specially when you have to explain to a new player why the "fluffy" sm army doesnt work at all.

[Legatus]

I don't exactly see how 20 points veterans where every member has the option to get a powerfist, a powerweapon or a 3+ inv storm shield are a bad choice...

[Brother Nihm]

I don't exactly see how 20 points veterans where every member has the option to get a powerfist, a powerweapon or a 3+ inv storm shield are a bad choice...

At the top of my head I'd say it was due to them being:

-Expensive, especially if you take jump packs and load up on power fist/weapons.

-Easy to counter

-Non-scoring

-Have a single special rule that's random

 

 

I like the idea of having a special character change your army options, or having the AC change the squads options. It's simple and effective, provided said character isn't over or under-costed.

It would be nice to see the idea explored more thoroughly.

[Legatus]

I like the idea of having a special character change your army options, or having the AC change the squads options. It's simple and effective, provided said character isn't over or under-costed.

The problem is, how do you balance the one-time set cost of an army list change so that it is balanced for 750 point games as well as for 2500 point games? The whole army list variations would have to be balanced in order to have it work, so there is very little point to make it dependant on some additional point costs or a certain character.

It works for Dark Angels, because here the first company captain lets you play their distinct first company, and their second company captain lets you play their second company. It does not work quite as well with Codex Space Marines, where people might get the impression that you need one of the special characters in order to play a certain chapter. A notion that is not at all propagated by the Codex, which in the example pages shows an Ultramarine 2nd Company not led by Sicarius, a Salamanders army not led by Vulkan He'stan and a White Scars army not led by Khan.

 

At the top of my head I'd say it was due to them being:

-Expensive, especially if you take jump packs and load up on power fist/weapons.

-Easy to counter

-Non-scoring

-Have a single special rule that's random

Hm. Nope, 20 points veterans with CCWs are still a very good choice. Not one of those points is viable.

[Cale]

Hm. Nope, 20 points veterans with CCWs are still a very good choice. Not one of those points is viable.

 

Not at all, really. 19 point Assault Marines (one less attack, but jump packs) are a better choice. It's almost impossible to make a Vanguard squad that's actually worth taking. Their options are too expensive, and they're never really worthwhile without jump packs (which also make them too expensive). It's just not a good squad.

 

Now, the Blood Angel Veteran Assault Marines are a pretty good unit, and their Death Company is really good. Vanguard just fail to compare--and fail to compare to assault marines as well.

[the jeske]

yes because jump pack troops is "they" way of playing they can move as a wave 4 units of scoring jump packers + vets and DC in support .[am not saying its the best BA build . only that its possible] . normal sm stuff is much like codex sm , you have drop pod siege dreads , attack bikes , specials . the core of the list unlike the chaos dex is rather weak [specially without khan] as both scouts and tacticals arent the best choice and what makes matter worse the way tactical gear looks right now they specialize in a way of playing that is dead in 5th ed .

 

 

The problem is, how do you balance the one-time set cost of an army list change so that it is balanced for 750 point games as well as for 2500 point games?

well the entry games for w40k right now are 1500pts and the most optimal range of playing is seen in the 1850-2k range . No one in their right mind plays 1k or lower games because the stuff you can make at those pts is just broken beyond repair.

[Legatus]

Veterans used to cost 18 points without terminator honours, or 28 points with the extra attack. If people were not usign those as a close combat element, they were often using tactical squads with the close combat weapon trait, which is now gone. 20 points for CCW Marines with 2 base attacks is a very good price, and Rhinos or Drop Pods are viable means of transportation. Give them 1-2 hidden fists or powerweapons and they are good to go, no need to go all out crazy. Two fists are still better than one. Giving 2-3 members of the squad storm shields is tempting, as you could allocate the wounds with high AP to them untill you failed a few of those 3+ saves. Again, no need to upgrade a lot of models. The whole squad benefits from a single storm shield.

[Cale]

People might have been playing Veterans as close combat guys for 28 points before, but anyone who was was making a serious error. The veterans in the old codex were not good. The option to give them Terminator Honours was a joke. Saying that Vanguard are better than they were means next to nothing.

[Legatus]

28 points for a Marine with two attack was way overpriced. 18 points for a CCW alternative to assault squads was not. Not everyone wanted to meddle with traits. The (single) extra powerfist and powerweapon from last Codex were a nice touch too. Now, 20 points for a Marine with 2 attacks is well worth it. You could take the squad bare bones with only the sergeant having his mandatory powerweapon, perhaps upgraded to a powerfist, and the squad would work well. Add one or two extra bits to improve the performance, voila.

[chillin]

I like the idea of having a special character change your army options,

 

I don't agree.

There's is the already stated problem of the SC being a set price, while games are not.

But I think a bigger problem is that makes s/m players take the SC to represent their army of choice (or at least think they do).

*Some of the SC are overpowered others are not.

* why is Magnus leading a 1500 pt army ??

* Have to fight the same SC over and over again, or on the converse, use the same SC over and over if you are a s/m player (if you want your army to play the way it's supposed to)

 

I think they had it right in C:csm 3.5, the 'nilla dex, with a 1 page special rules and a bit of fluff for the variant armies in the back.

That way you could play sallies w/ out taking Estan, and your army would still play different then an UM army.

[Lord Doyok]

Former SM dex are the best way to differentiate between Chapters. I know traits are ready for abuse. But why not just predetermined the sets of traits for every chapter and no such thing as DIY Chapters. Predetermined sets of traits is much better than just tie it all up to a SC.

 

I faced a lot of funky list nowdays. The funniest was 20 assault termies - 10 infiltrate with Shrike (plus attached Calgar), 10 walking/deepstrike. All with fleet. Now that really was special wasnt it? But at least they (C:SM) do have something to play with. Us Chaos have none.

 

We still win though hahaha ;)..

[Brother Nihm]

I like the idea of having a special character change your army options,

 

I don't agree.

There's is the already stated problem of the SC being a set price, while games are not.

But I think a bigger problem is that makes s/m players take the SC to represent their army of choice (or at least think they do).

*Some of the SC are overpowered others are not.

* why is Magnus leading a 1500 pt army ??

* Have to fight the same SC over and over again, or on the converse, use the same SC over and over if you are a s/m player (if you want your army to play the way it's supposed to)

 

I think they had it right in C:csm 3.5, the 'nilla dex, with a 1 page special rules and a bit of fluff for the variant armies in the back.

That way you could play sallies w/ out taking Estan, and your army would still play different then an UM army.

Hence my comment:

 

It would be nice to see the idea explored more thoroughly.

Having them scale, or be available only at different point levels could be one way of implementing them.

[the jeske]

Veterans used to cost 18 points without terminator honours, or 28 points with the extra attack. If people were not usign those as a close combat element, they were often using tactical squads with the close combat weapon trait, which is now gone. 20 points for CCW Marines with 2 base attacks is a very good price, and Rhinos or Drop Pods are viable means of transportation

:tu: people were using vets out of the 4th ed dex , really ? the gunline didnt use it , the assault armies [both the pistol/ccw and the biker/assault sm ones] didnt use it because they were either too slow [no rhino rush] or they could get the same stuff cheaper [tacs with ccw/pistol] and because units with rending were droping 4 of them before any saves were rolled .

 

 

all in all , i dont mind named characters being special . its their job to do different things , to be more "cool" and ":cuss" , but I dont like the fact that the only way to make a different army is playing with them . just imagine how would chaos armies look like , if you needed ahriman/tydus/lucius/Khârn to have cult units as troops . just imagine .

[Cale]

I faced a lot of funky list nowdays. The funniest was 20 assault termies - 10 infiltrate with Shrike (plus attached Calgar), 10 walking/deepstrike. All with fleet. Now that really was special wasnt it? But at least they (C:SM) do have something to play with. Us Chaos have none.

 

You know that doesn't actually work, right? Shrike doesn't actually let a squad infiltrate--only outflank. He does give them the infiltrate rule, but there's no way to attach him to the squad before they deploy (if they're not going into reserve) so that they can actually be placed as infiltrators.

 

all in all , i dont mind named characters being special . its their job to do different things , to be more "cool" and ":cuss" , but I dont like the fact that the only way to make a different army is playing with them . just imagine how would chaos armies look like , if you needed ahriman/tydus/lucius/Khârn to have cult units as troops . just imagine .

 

I'm inclined to agree with the Jeske, here. Special Characters are fine. The problem is more that you can't get certain types of armies without using certain ones--which tends to lead to their overuse, and makes those armies less interesting. Fortunately, the bikes-as-troops army, at least, doesn't require a special characters.

[minigun762]

I still think that having some Special Characters with "global" effects like changing the FOC isn't a bad idea, atleast not in itself.

 

Honestly I'd probably use something like Possessed if they were counted as Troops and therefore scoring units.

[djkest]

Maybe special characters that grant a bonus to your army should cost more points the larger the army you field- so it scales. Just a thought.

[Malachi n'Ral]

I like the idea of having a special character change your army options,

 

I don't agree.

There's is the already stated problem of the SC being a set price, while games are not.

But I think a bigger problem is that makes s/m players take the SC to represent their army of choice (or at least think they do).

*Some of the SC are overpowered others are not.

* why is Magnus leading a 1500 pt army ??

* Have to fight the same SC over and over again, or on the converse, use the same SC over and over if you are a s/m player (if you want your army to play the way it's supposed to)

 

I think they had it right in C:csm 3.5, the 'nilla dex, with a 1 page special rules and a bit of fluff for the variant armies in the back.

That way you could play sallies w/ out taking Estan, and your army would still play different then an UM army.

 

 

A good reason to explain why a special character is leading a 1500 pt army is that the battle that YOU are playing is just a slice of the pie of the bigger war in general. I doubt the Ultramarines just sent three squads to deal with a Chaos insurgence (or whatever) that is taking place on a planet. It's probably a company, if not more, of marines that are taking place in the GREATER war. YOU are just acting out a small piece of that war and the special characters have to be SOMEWHERE in the battle so why not the battle you are fighting? Sounds like you are splitting hairs but if you put some thought into it you can find VERY valid reasons why they would be in your game. You can't blame people from wanting to play characters that they find useful or fun.

[chillin]

You can't blame people from wanting to play characters that they find useful or fun.

 

You seem to have missed the point of my post entirely. I wasn't blaming anyone for using characters they find useful or fun, I was saying that tying army rules to SC is not the way to go IMO.

[northoceanbeach]

Yeah, I use Shrike all the time as night lords, he's not Shrike, he's not a special character he's my NL leader, so you hav e to use your imagination a little, I don't see any problem with it, it's how I want my army to play. And he does give a unit infiltration, I always attach him to a unit of assault marines. The game has just changed for better or worse, there is alot more counts as. I was resistant to it at first, but it makes it more fun for me, and I'm glad I opened up. Really what makes the game less fun is alot of these posts I'm reading are so:

 

"my way is the right way, I'm sure I'm right"

 

It really should be

 

"I regret that they changed the game so, but what they heck, I'll play whatever army you have and we'll have a good time"

 

I've got my opinion and it's really neither right or wrong, just hwat I like and yours are the same. Not right or wrong.

 

The more I think GW messed this up, or GW messed that up, the less I enjoy the game, I'll take it for what it is and I always have fun, so I realize it doesn't really matter. More time should be spent thinking about tactics, fluff and painting and what to do to make next game great instead of lamenting what your last opponent used or may use.

 

I was talking to a guy today and he pointed something out to me. I've never played any other miniature game, but he said that one reason 40k remains so poular is that they change the rules all the time. THe other ones don't and they therefore get boring. So really this incarnation of 40k is counts as and special characters so change up your armies, try new stuff.

[the jeske]

The more I think GW messed this up, or GW messed that up, the less I enjoy the game, I'll take it for what it is and I always have fun, so I realize it doesn't really matter.

you should have played an EC army in the 4th . spend tons of extra cash on metal bits and FW stuff , even more time to make them look cool[and if you did that your probablly would be crazy enough to paint them or pay for painting them] and then comes the new csm dex . I dont remember who said it first [am sure that wasnt me] , but all the new codexs are ok when you play with generic stuff . BL/IW/Ultramarines etc etc they didnt lose nothing or the loses were small [or the gains were much better then the stuff they lost] . The problem is[this is what I think] that most people dont like to play generic stuff and whats more they dont like to play with the exact armies others play [unless they are only about gaming , btu w40k is a bad system to go only for the gaming part of the hobby]. the specials characters dont help much to make armies different [unless you go totally counts as , but then no one knows at a first glance what your playing] , most the khan build armies look the same or have 1/2 different models . Cantor build forces you to take certain units . That doesnt make it much different from the "lame" codex csm set ups of armies .

 

 

So really this incarnation of 40k is counts as and special characters so change up your armies, try new stuff.

another words when you find an army boring , buy another army . well am sure GW would like that . I for example liked the old sm and csm codexs a lot . Saying I play chaos or sm didnt tell anything about game play . Even saying I play this or that legion/chapter didnt tell everything , because it was possible to build many different list [WE could be assault , demon bomb for example ]. Now you if someone comes and say I play khan or chaos you know 3/4 of his army and if your not a new player the game play too . It makes playing boring no matter what army you pick

[Night Stalker]

Now you if someone comes and say I play khan or chaos you know 3/4 of his army and if your not a new player the game play too . It makes playing boring no matter what army you pick

 

True - that is obviously also downfall of new CSM codex.

 

Only few competetive builds.

[northoceanbeach]

The more I think GW messed this up, or GW messed that up, the less I enjoy the game, I'll take it for what it is and I always have fun, so I realize it doesn't really matter.

you should have played an EC army in the 4th . spend tons of extra cash on metal bits and FW stuff , even more time to make them look cool[and if you did that your probablly would be crazy enough to paint them or pay for painting them] and then comes the new csm dex

 

Ha, funny you should say that, my 2 armies in fourth were blood angels and emperor's children. ALL sonic blasters and blastmasters, converted bikes, 12 really expensive and now worthless mounted daemonettes. I loved that army. Blood Angels had a bunch or scouts and a huge death company. I hate what they've done to the chas codex. I don't like the blandness they've made with the BA codex.

 

What really sucks is how little I sold it for. And now those daemonettes are going for a lot and so are noise marines.

 

But all I'm saying is, it's been a year or something, I have to quit or get over it. Or I'll be a grumpy old man listening to classic rock and talking about those darn kids and how they ruined music.

[the jeske]

Or I'll be a grumpy old man listening to classic rock and talking about those darn kids and how they ruined music

is there any other way ;)

[Redbaron997]

Except its gonna be those darn game designers who ruined warhammer haha

[doctor_wu]

I think some of the characters are not the greatest. Khârn is still decent. Changing the Foc would be better if you could do it on regular characters. However alternative organizations are still kind of cool.