Special Characters: Lame

[Lord Doyok]

You know that doesn't actually work, right? Shrike doesn't actually let a squad infiltrate--only outflank. He does give them the infiltrate rule, but there's no way to attach him to the squad before they deploy (if they're not going into reserve) so that they can actually be placed as infiltrators

Wow.. that was quite something :)

[Master Of Malfeasance X]

I play Chaos, and I liked the 3.5th dex as well as the 4th dex. Both were highly competitive, and once people stop whining about how their noise marines are useless (they're not) and their forgeworld nurgle sorcerer needs FNP, and iron warriors want their heavily converted basilisk which should never have been in their army to begin with, it's an exceptionally balanced codex.

 

The new SM codex is actually kind of weak in my opinion, at least with the spam armies people have been building. I'm sure there are competitive builds, but I haven't seen many.

Moronic SM player: I field Lysander in a 10 man squad of TH/SS terminators. Deep strike. What are you going to do now?

Me: Cool. (moves) I'm dropping 6 plasma templates (where in 4th, it would have taken only 3). Now you have no terminators. I lash Lysander closer. I charge with my DP. Your 500 point squad died horribly and cost me, at most, a daemon prince (160).

Moronic SM player: Wait, I play SM, I'm supposed to win.

Me: Sigh.

 

The fact is that all these cool options and characters that other armies don't get are incredibly expensive. So they can opt to fall back--follow them. A squad that never got to make a roll to rally can't automatically pass it. Lysander, Shrike, Calgar? Please. Dante is scarier. He is a force multiplier and gives a tangible benefit that fits his army to everyone around him, and even he can be killed with the right application of firepower. It seems to me that when people complain about the 'unkillable squad', it's because they resent having to point their entire army at it, however, a balanced 2000 point army is only going to kill about 1 point per 4 points in it's composition. So if a whole 2000 point shooting army shot a 500 point squad (shrike's wing, mega armored nobz, tyrant with guard), that should be about right to kill it, if the dice go statistically.

 

There are things which drastically alter this, like the Fateweaver, Fortune/guide/doom, and the much-derided lash of submission which is a spectacular positonal tool with many uses, however, it has its own weakness: it belongs to a 160 point character who should be in CC. The lash kills no troops, it only works conjunctionally.

 

I used to think that some codices were inherently more powerful than others, but this simply isn't true. It may be true that some armies have more numerous competitive builds (SM, CSM, chaos, orks) than others (necrons..sigh), but on the whole there is almost always a place for even obsolete models when a new codex comes out. It seems to me that when people start crying cheese, it's because they have encountered an army that forces them to play differently. Even the current Guard have competitive builds, and the Dark Eldar are still scary.

 

5th edition, in my humble opinion, is one of the best I've seen because no one FOC slot dominates the field. You need troops, you need everything. It rewards people who play with a balanced approach. Everyone from Orks to World Eaters needs fire support and the Tau need someone to take the charge, or to take it to the bad guys. This is how real war works, no one won a war with just artillery and tanks, and before you start in with the '40k isn't supposed to be real' routine, please remember that it is a fanciful approximation of real war which uses real war as the model upon which it is based.

[Brother Drakist]

After taking another look through the codex and thinking on it some more I have come to a conclusion. If you think Special Characters are "lame" as far as Loyalist Marines are concerened then you are just a complainer. Let me ask a question, how many Space Marine Power Builds are out there since the codex was released? NONE. This leads me to the conclusion that the book is either weak(no) or balanced(yes!). In fact, what kind of cheese fest are you seeing? As chaos what can we complain about "special characters" with access to Dual Lash princes, 9 Oblits, and Troop options that blast the loyalist scum out of the water? So what if they have a "Special Character" he still goes down the same as any other space marine, just takes a few more wounds.

[the jeske]

As chaos what can we complain about "special characters" with access to Dual Lash princes, 9 Oblits, and Troop options that blast the loyalist scum out of the water?

because most people dont like the new happy chaos family fluff and this means that if your not playing NM or BL playing with LAsh princes is rather hard to pull off [unless you do counts as , but with counts as you can do everything ].

 

also both the khan build and the cantor build are solid list , bit random and no way the lvl of old gunline list that just killed with math , but still playable against the top other army builds .

[Brother Drakist]

Jeske,

Special characters seem to be the direction that GW is going. Was this something that Chaos players actually wanted? Did they want their elite 10k old space marines to be made special by a single character? I don't know. Does it stink that Chaos was relegated to this unfluffy codex? Yes, however you have the standard Chaos Space Marine coming in at a great cost for what they offer. You also have perhaps the most resilient troop choice around in plague marines, highly effective CC in Berserkers, and TSons/EC for flavor. This is just the troops! While unfluffy the versatility is undeniable and makes the army effective. In addition to this their are Lash Princes and Oblits which leaves your opponents with A LOT to worry about.

 

The Loyalist scum have nice options in Khan, and Cantor. Can they hang the best/most competetive armies out there? I don't know, Khan can leave you hanging with bad Flank rolls. Cantor can get very pricey if you use Sternguard which die like any other marine.

 

Fluffwise their is a HUGE complaint for Chaos, I understand that. But in terms of effectiveness I give CSM the nod.

[the jeske]

no one ever said that the csm power wise sucked or rather that it did suck powerwise when it came out and there was [just like now] 1 army build out if it with 3 variations of units .

 

 

Special characters seem to be the direction that GW is going. Was this something that Chaos players actually wanted? Did they want their elite 10k old space marines to be made special by a single character?

not in the chaos dex . orks , DA , sm have "specials"are a means to change the army list . chaos has the old days specials [and lets face it aside for Khârn they are unplayable and from a gamer point of view even Khârn aint very good]. if this codex was made out any other reasone then problems with the ork range , then i wish to believe that it would look different. with "specials" to make legions or specialls to make legion unit .a "veteran" raptor leader from NL , a "sneaky backstaber "sgt from AL etc . it would make sense then you could have different legion/chapter unit in one army . huzza for the happy family . But didnt get even that . a mircle didnt happen [and thorpe did ].

I don't know, Khan can leave you hanging with bad Flank rolls.

khan builds are good , because they dont have to put everything in to reservs. but yeah they are random .[of course when you roll for 4/6 units per turn they do come].

and cantor builds are a poor man versions chaos lists , that base their power on the fact that unlike chaos builds can use drop pods .

[chillin]

Fluffwise their is a HUGE complaint for Chaos, I understand that. But in terms of effectiveness I give CSM the nod.

 

I don't think anyone has ever said that chaos wasn't effective.

And I don't think many people think that the s/m characters are over powered.

I just think that some people (myself included) that that having army rules linked to SC (and only SC's)

was not a goood way to go, for various reasons.

[Askari]

Well GW's trying to get people to buy their expensive special characters. but then they stupidly made counts as whcih allows you to use regular commander models and just give them the rules fir the SC. so it seems their two policies designed to sell more models at the expense of player satisfaction have canceled each other out in this case. You'd think they'd realize that just giving their customers what they want would boost their sales.

[vytzka]

Well GW's trying to get people to buy their expensive special characters. but then they stupidly made counts as whcih allows you to use regular commander models and just give them the rules fir the SC. so it seems their two policies designed to sell more models at the expense of player satisfaction have canceled each other out in this case.

Funny how everything adds up in that explanation, huh?

 

Oh wait. It doesn't make sense at all.

[Askari]

Either that or they just aren't good at making codixes and if that's the case we might as well just make our own rules.

[gdeathlegion]

Either that or they just aren't good at making codixes and if that's the case we might as well just make our own rules.

 

Heresy!

[Smurfalypse]

Been following this post for a few weeks now and wanted to throw in as well. From my point of view I love the way that GW did the Sm codex (even though I only play Word Bearers), the special characters are nifty and add a new dimension to the game, the sheer options are astounding IMO. I dont agree with chillin on this point, i dont think you HAVE to run one of the specials to actually run your list...I think more the idea is that the special character gets more out of his units than a normal commander would. IE...you could still run a white scars list without khan, heck you could even run an all bike list without khan, you could run a salamanders list without hestan easilly, again hestan would make your stuff twinlinked but he is a named character for a reason. This is a great way to apply things and make it so HQs just arnt "butt pounder melee combatants" but instead add a tactical advantage to the battlefield...Just like a real commander would do.

 

As for the chaos codex...Lets not make this yet another rant, no one says the codex as a whole is poor str wise...I think we all agree that it is 100% lacking any depth or color (so much so that i havnt pulled my stuff out in months) Lets leave it at that....

 

Catch you all on the flip side.

[styx]

I have to agree that "special characters" are just a bad excuse for GW to try to sell something. They are trying to force people to buy them also to get "special only perks" or "army only perks". Just to build some good Space Marine armies I have to take some special character instead of just selecting the traits....I hope GW pulls away from this trend.

[Brother Vader]

I can't see them changing, BT have had it for years before C:SM. You buy the Emperor's Champion (he's compulsory) then you buy a vow (also compulsory), that vow gives your army special rule and there's 4 to choose from. It's not so different with C:SM now, buy a character and get army-wide special rules. I quite like it.

As for GW selling more, I think Askari's earlier point about 'counts as' is very good. You can easily convert up these special characters from spare bits and pieces anyway, there's so many extras on the plastic sprues these days. Many players will probably do that as the rules can be used to represent characters from other chapters.

[the jeske]

yeah but you play BT to play BT . you dont have to pick Pedro Cantor to play space sharks. Thats one thing .

It's not so different with C:SM now, buy a character and get army-wide special rules. I quite like it.

cool for BT to have that and that the sm have it . now go ask a DA player what he thinks about it [if he doesnt use the wing list] ? or a BA player or a chaos player etc . or a necron player . or a sob player . or a GK player .

I mean its like asking a SW player , if he has seen anything wrong in the 3ed rhino rush .

GW new about the going away from traits before codex DA came out . Why in the middle of the testing process they decided that "counts as" and not normal rules should be the norm for 5th ed is beyond my understanding [well maybe not but its hard to explain everything with "GW is bad at making rules"].

 

as counts as goes I have seen my fair share of it and I say thank you to GW . <_< you made my and any serious gamer life a lot easier .

[Brother Vader]

Yeah, some consistency across all codex books would be much better. All armies having characters that give army-wide rules, or none. I still like the idea. Perhaps they could have been given titles like '1st company captain' and 'tank commander' rather than be named special characters, but some people would have moaned about that too.

Necron ones could be interesting, we've never seen a 'cron with a personality before, but the fluff in the BRB suggests that the lords retain much of their former intellect and personality so it's totally possible. Some go bonkers as their memory engrams get corrupted, that would make for a fun character. Like a robot Manfred von Carstein.

As for the chaos characters, the only one I'd be tempted to use is Fabius, because he can affect my army choices and his special rules (the enhanced warriors) continue even if he's dead. In that respect he's not unlike the C:SM characters or the Emperor's champion. But, he's the only one the chaos codex has that's like that, which is a shame.

[the jeske]

the new necron fluff is really nice , with the different metalic lords and the whole "necron" civilsation/culture and society . compering to that chaos dex seems really bland .

[Askari]

IE...you could still run a white scars list without khan, heck you could even run an all bike list without khan, you could run a salamanders list without hestan easilly, again hestan would make your stuff twinlinked but he is a named character for a reason. This is a great way to apply things and make it so HQs just arnt "butt pounder melee combatants" but instead add a tactical advantage to the battlefield...Just like a real commander would do.

 

Yes but they made it so that you could only get a character that adds tactical flexibility by taking a special character. Chapter masters used to be able to lend their lead to other squads like sicarius but now they're just close combat units that aren't good enough in close combat to make their points back or threaten and basically overpriced unit champions that can be singled out in combat.