Prodigy Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 In the space marine codex, under assault marine sergeants; the way it mantions pairs of lightning claws, is as purchasable in a pair to replace the bolt pistol AND/or the chainsword. Does that mean one could buy two pairs of lightning claws? Maybe represented by converting them onto the sergeant's elbows? Would that count? Would the sergeant get 2 additional CC attacks for 4 total? (5 with chapter banner/pedro kantor) There doesn't seem to be a steadfast rule in the codex limiting the number of weapons per model anymore, thought admittedly I may have missed it, should it exist. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/153218-in-practice/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Malachi Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 I believe you can do it, however, as you can only gain the +1 attack bonus for 2 CC weapons once, it's pure, unadulterated points wasting. Hope that helps :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/153218-in-practice/#findComment-1785631 Share on other sites More sharing options...
popper Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 no, no, and no. you cant get more than two lightning claws. the last option lists "pair of lightning claws" for 30 points to sasve you points, not to let you buy 2x a pair of lightning claws. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/153218-in-practice/#findComment-1785633 Share on other sites More sharing options...
cathar the great Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 I don't think that's anything more but a printing mistake in the codex Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/153218-in-practice/#findComment-1785636 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imperialis_Dominatus Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 Even if you could, it'd be wasted points. You wouldn't get any extra attacks or anything... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/153218-in-practice/#findComment-1785637 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orkdung Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 Claws on elbows? :P I think someone needs to go talk to the Black Dragons. :P It cant be done. And anyhow, you'd then have 4 1-handed weapons. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/153218-in-practice/#findComment-1785640 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carolus Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 EDIT: yeah, you can only buy one pair. -Carolus Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/153218-in-practice/#findComment-1785642 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Hereticus Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 Generally, if you have to ask "If I twist and interpret this line in a certain way, can I then do this? " then it's a fair bet you can't, and should get dreadsocked just for trying. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/153218-in-practice/#findComment-1785686 Share on other sites More sharing options...
nighthawks Posted November 26, 2008 Share Posted November 26, 2008 by rights you may upgrade to 2 pairs of LCs. there is zero benefit after the first pair. might as well keep your shooting weapon. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/153218-in-practice/#findComment-1786060 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prodigy Posted November 26, 2008 Author Share Posted November 26, 2008 well its 30 points to get a single attack. while losing all ranged capabilities, I don't see it as thaaat bad. It wouldnt be good, itd just be hilarious. unlike if you exchanged the pistol for the pair of lightning claws and the chainsword for a power fist. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/153218-in-practice/#findComment-1786104 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurasuke Posted November 26, 2008 Share Posted November 26, 2008 well its 30 points to get a single attack. while losing all ranged capabilities, I don't see it as thaaat bad.It wouldnt be good, itd just be hilarious. unlike if you exchanged the pistol for the pair of lightning claws and the chainsword for a power fist. I don't think you would get an additional attack. The rules say that you get an attack for a second close combat weapon, not each additional close combat weapon. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/153218-in-practice/#findComment-1786154 Share on other sites More sharing options...
HiveFleetEzekial Posted November 26, 2008 Share Posted November 26, 2008 You wouldn't get any extra attacks or anything... there is zero benefit after the first pair. as you can only gain the +1 attack bonus for 2 CC weapons once... Just a point of interest... Is there anything in any of the rules that specifically says they gain no further attacks? They are all the same special weapon afterall... Tyranids can get a +1A more than once, if they take two sets of talons. The only note their codex makes on it is that talons are the only way for them to get any +A's. So multiple +A's can certainly stack (atleast for 'nids.. unless there's no general rule on it). Yay (sm)codex typos! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/153218-in-practice/#findComment-1786364 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reglor Posted November 26, 2008 Share Posted November 26, 2008 You wouldn't get any extra attacks or anything... there is zero benefit after the first pair. as you can only gain the +1 attack bonus for 2 CC weapons once... Just a point of interest... Is there anything in any of the rules that specifically says they gain no further attacks? They are all the same special weapon afterall... Tyranids can get a +1A more than once, if they take two sets of talons. The only note their codex makes on it is that talons are the only way for them to get any +A's. So multiple +A's can certainly stack (atleast for 'nids.. unless there's no general rule on it). Yay (sm)codex typos! BRB pg 37 second bullet point under number of attacks "... you only get one extra attack, even if you have more than two weapons" Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/153218-in-practice/#findComment-1786403 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mal Posted November 26, 2008 Share Posted November 26, 2008 From what I understand you can now buy multipul of the same weapon for your SM leaders... HOWEVER, you never gain more than +1 attack, and if you have 3 or more specail weapons IIRC you don't even get the +1A as a penalty for having too many specalist weapons. So, I believe you may be able to buy 2 sets of claws, but you'd be shooting yoruself in the foot since you can only use one pair, but the second pair prevents you from gaining the +1A, so you pay 30 points to loose an attack. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/153218-in-practice/#findComment-1786414 Share on other sites More sharing options...
HiveFleetEzekial Posted November 27, 2008 Share Posted November 27, 2008 BRB pg 37 second bullet point under number of attacks "... you only get one extra attack, even if you have more than two weapons" How interesting... Ok, reread the 'nid 'dex, and it *does* go on to say more... that only +2A may be gained from talons. So, yeah.. only one +1A for everyone else. heh Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/153218-in-practice/#findComment-1787272 Share on other sites More sharing options...
maniclurker Posted November 27, 2008 Share Posted November 27, 2008 This is an example of how to read generously. Really, that whole "pair of lightning claws" shouldn't even be in there, because you can already accomplish said effect by buying two individual claws. Also, if you want to exploit it to it's fullest, then you'd do something like taking a plasma pistol and a pair of lightning claws. Or, you could just keep your pistol and get a pair of lightning claws. Reallly, though, it's just dumb. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/153218-in-practice/#findComment-1787449 Share on other sites More sharing options...
kittenofdeath Posted November 27, 2008 Share Posted November 27, 2008 This is an example of how to read generously. Really, that whole "pair of lightning claws" shouldn't even be in there, because you can already accomplish said effect by buying two individual claws. Also, if you want to exploit it to it's fullest, then you'd do something like taking a plasma pistol and a pair of lightning claws. Or, you could just keep your pistol and get a pair of lightning claws. Reallly, though, it's just dumb. isnt there a price cut for the second? because if it is then your only paying for the extra attack that way, you not paying for everything else a lightning claw gives you Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/153218-in-practice/#findComment-1787712 Share on other sites More sharing options...
maniclurker Posted November 27, 2008 Share Posted November 27, 2008 No, there is no price cut. This is not 4th ed dex. It's simply an oversight on GW's part. It's also something that some people will try to abuse, even though it is rather obvious that GW meant for the player to replace both weapons with a pair of lightning claws if they take that option. Further reading into the dex will yield whether or not it makes any comment about weapon limits somewhere, or something like that. Hover it does say PAIR, as in 2. And it does give the option to replace BOTH weapons. PAIR = BOTH in my book. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/153218-in-practice/#findComment-1788120 Share on other sites More sharing options...
nighthawks Posted November 28, 2008 Share Posted November 28, 2008 No, there is no price cut. This is not 4th ed dex. It's simply an oversight on GW's part. It's also something that some people will try to abuse, even though it is rather obvious that GW meant for the player to replace both weapons with a pair of lightning claws if they take that option. Further reading into the dex will yield whether or not it makes any comment about weapon limits somewhere, or something like that. Hover it does say PAIR, as in 2. And it does give the option to replace BOTH weapons. PAIR = BOTH in my book. the rules allow for a pair that replaces both weapons (each for one claw) OR a pair AND another weapon. I doubt heavily that it is an oversight. there's no room for abuse because 2 pair of LCs accomplishes exactly nothing that is not already had by one pair. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/153218-in-practice/#findComment-1788410 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cale Posted November 28, 2008 Share Posted November 28, 2008 Nighthawks seems to be on top of this one: You can swap a weapon for a pair of lightning claws. You can swap the other weapon for something else (or another pair of lightning claws, but that would be stupid since it wouldn't do you any good). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/153218-in-practice/#findComment-1788761 Share on other sites More sharing options...
angronn Posted November 28, 2008 Share Posted November 28, 2008 No, there is no price cut. This is not 4th ed dex. It's simply an oversight on GW's part. It's also something that some people will try to abuse, even though it is rather obvious that GW meant for the player to replace both weapons with a pair of lightning claws if they take that option. Further reading into the dex will yield whether or not it makes any comment about weapon limits somewhere, or something like that. Hover it does say PAIR, as in 2. And it does give the option to replace BOTH weapons. PAIR = BOTH in my book. It might have been an oversight (I seem to remember it's not written that way in all the possible entries) but it is no way unfair - Dark Angels characters can take a pair of lightning claws and a ranged weapon as well. GW's only stipulation is that they be WYSIWYG (so gauntlet-mounted plasma pistol, or something). I feel that the new C:SM can be a little restrictive in this fashion in some entries, only allowing two weapons. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/153218-in-practice/#findComment-1788911 Share on other sites More sharing options...
maniclurker Posted November 28, 2008 Share Posted November 28, 2008 nighthawks: I wasn't suggesting that someone takes 2 pairs of lightning claws. Perhaps you could read my posts before responding to them. I was suggesting that someone could take a pair of lightning claws and a plasma pistol. Seeing as how this is probably an oversight on GW's part, it most definitely would be abuse. Cale: You are just repeating what nighthawks said... no cookies for you. :) angronn: Arguing that something in some other codex can do something is not really a valid argument. DA drop pods can shoot the turn they land, ours cannot. Also, I didn't even necessarily say it's unfair. If you pay the points for it, then you paid the points for it. I'm saying that it's abuse. Why would they allow a lowly sergeant to take a plasma pistol and a pair of lightning claws, when a CHAPTER MASTER cannot? It's not logical. Pair (2) = Both (2)... that's logical. Also, a DA character can take a pair of lightning claws, a plasma pistol, AND a storm bolter. You left that part out. Like I said this is most likely an oversight, or them not clearly defining that a pair of something replaces both weapons. The assault serg is the only entry that has it this way... from memory. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/153218-in-practice/#findComment-1789190 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mordekiem Posted November 28, 2008 Share Posted November 28, 2008 Yes you could take two pairs of claws. No you would not get any additional attacks. (so it'd be a waste of points) You'd be better off replacing the chainsword with a pair of claws and then you still have a pistol to shoot with. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/153218-in-practice/#findComment-1789212 Share on other sites More sharing options...
angronn Posted November 29, 2008 Share Posted November 29, 2008 angronn: Arguing that something in some other codex can do something is not really a valid argument. DA drop pods can shoot the turn they land, ours cannot. Also, I didn't even necessarily say it's unfair. If you pay the points for it, then you paid the points for it. I'm saying that it's abuse. Why would they allow a lowly sergeant to take a plasma pistol and a pair of lightning claws, when a CHAPTER MASTER cannot? It's not logical. Pair (2) = Both (2)... that's logical. Also, a DA character can take a pair of lightning claws, a plasma pistol, AND a storm bolter. You left that part out. Like I said this is most likely an oversight, or them not clearly defining that a pair of something replaces both weapons. The assault serg is the only entry that has it this way... from memory. There are plenty of dud/oversight style rules in GW. Why stop with SM sergeant lightning claws + pistols? Why not twin-lashes? Why not fire both stormbolter and plasma cannon on Sammael? In terms of creating army lists, I'm all in favour of RAW-ness where possible. As such, given that it's not unfair (unbalancing), I don't see how it would really count as abuse. No, GW probably didn't mean it, but unless you apply the tricky RAI logic to everything, I think this minor example should escape the abuse terminology. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/153218-in-practice/#findComment-1789927 Share on other sites More sharing options...
maniclurker Posted November 30, 2008 Share Posted November 30, 2008 *sighs* The twin lash argument again, huh? Well, let's see here... GW gave no limit on lashes, nor did they set a precedence that would make one expect that they meant to. Argement, no more... Sammael is the only marine on his bike, that's why you can't fire both. It's been the same way for marine bikes that are armed with a meltagun (or whatever) and the TL bolters for a while. That's called a precedence, as well. The 2 weapons are there to give you an option. There ARE inherent risks in firing a plasma cannon, especially if you are 2" away from the squad you are shooting it at. Argument, no more... Every other entry in the SM dex (from memory, I lost mine and can't check) lacks the 'pair of lightning claws' option, and instead has the option to upgrade 1 claw per weapon. That sets a precedence. Suddenly, stupid entry in assault squad gives you the ability to replace one weapon with 2 claws... :cuss?!?! You can actually RAW it either way, and RAI it one way. I choose to RAW it the way it makes sense. However, sense everyone else seems to like to ignore the 'replace both' option, and the word 'pair', then there's not much to be done. It's obvious beyond obvious that it shouldn't be that way, so taking advantage of it is abuse.... regardless of legality. Who cares if it's unbalancing.... actually. Hold up. Ima go grab my rulebook. I just thought of something that may make this whole argument pointless... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/153218-in-practice/#findComment-1790773 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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