Possessed (rant?)

[djkest]

So yeah, at 26 points a pop, it's hard to see how they are worth it. They are similar to 15 point CSM in many ways, but also different. First off, they die the same as a CSM- but they cost almost 2x as much. Second, they lose any sort of shooting at all. Third, they do have str 5 and 2 attacks, but a regular CSM also has 2 attacks since they have a bolt pistol. Now they do have a roll on the table- this can represent a variety of things- some good, some bad. The very best result is a power weapon upgrade. Now you are probably thinking, this is great! But, it's not. For only 4 points more, you could have terminators. Terminators have good shooting, power weapons, many options, and a 2+/5+ save. Only disadvantage I can see to terminators in only 5 can fit in a LR, whereas you can get 10 possessed in there. But then again, you only have a 17% chance of getting power weapons.

 

You could also get rending, which is a much suckier version of power weapons that also does better against vehicles. You could also get furious charge. Now, don't get me wrong, gobs of str 6 attacks at I5 is great, but against many foes, power weapons would be so much better. Fleet of foot? They are far to expensive to run across the battlefield. Scouts? Oh please, they have no guns, and they shouldn't be advancing on foot as previously mentioned.

 

So where would you use them? Probably no where, they aren't scoring, and they aren't predictable. They are expensive, and they would gobble up that much-coveted Land Raider spot. Honestly, could they be better than Beserkers in any way, especially on the charge? Maybe with the power weapon upgrade. They would also be better against vehicles, and could actually penetrate many vehicles in CC. Well, that's a plus I guess.

 

I just really wish they were better, I'd love to use them. In fact, I think I am going to make a unit of Possessed, just because I want to model them and mess with them. In their current form, they should be perhaps 20 points, or have feel no pain, or get some sort of flamer attack (ALA dawn of war video games). In Dawn of War, they each had a flamer attack that caused fear. Granted, this would make them very powerful. I'm just saying....

 

Oh yeah, I was thinking about making them using CSM legs and torsos, and bloodletter arms and heads- I'm sure that has been done before, but seems kinda cool. The plastic boxed set is pretty neat, but why the crap would you put wings on a model that can't fly? (the box comes with *4* pairs of wings, too). Would be good for making a winged lord or sorceror though.

[Smurfalypse]

If you have ever seen me post my chaos lists up you would notice that i almost always run possessed in mine. I always footslog them as its the only way to gain the benefit from every one of your rolls, i also run them in large units, usually 20. I agree with you on most of these points, they are overpriced, they are far to unpredictable, they are lacking in alot of areas...They are also solid in other areas, str 5 is good, 5+ invuln is great, and can take big units.

 

The overall problem with these guys is their rolling on the chart after deployment...This has bitten me in the butt on many many occasions, if you rolled before deployment than at least you could try to outflank if you got the dreaded scout. With all their negatives they do utterly destroy certain armies, orks, nid, tau, eldar, pretty much all non-MEQ lists really have issues with dealing with 20 possessed. On the other side of this conversation they just simply arnt worth their weight in anything vs MEQ armies as if you dont have power weapons or at least rending, they will pretty much get bogged down in a pointless melee and sit there the rest of the game against a unit half their points cost. This has happened to me in just about every game ive played against MEQ players, you can kinda pick and choose your fights but when the opportunity to charge something comes up, you are going to take it no matter the odds (with possessed).

 

Funny as this may sound, the main issue i have with possessed is their lack of frag grenades....When a unit of orks go simo with my possessed because i charged them through something you really start to miss the glorys of the base CSMs. This one little fact has lost me countless melees because i would lose a few before i even went to go and losing 26pt models before you get to go is really really painful ;)

 

Just my take on the topic....I run em anyhow and i run them en-mass

[Kadaeux]

They have several benefits in my experience. All psychological though.

 

A: Enemies love to prioritise them.

B: Fearless, 5+ Invulnerable save and a roll that can give them interesting abilities (and sometimes useless ones)

C: You can have 20 in one squad. (At 520 points without champ its a waste but hey ;) )

[Brother Nihm]

If it has any interest, here's the old pre-codex release Possessed discussion.

It brings up many of the same issues as this topic.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Another problem with possessed is that berserkers are simply better and cheaper. This issue was discussed on another forum i read and i came up with some numbers, so i'll post them here for you all:

 

But the real question when you are thinking of taking possessed is this: Why take them over berserkers. Berserkers are cheaper and i think have a much better price vs power ratio and are troops. I've heard instances of people who wanted to use possessed just having them use the berserker rules instead of possessed.

 

Let's assume IoK on possessed (easiest for straight-up comparisons). 10 Zerks= 210 points, no champ (again, for comparison purposes). 10 Possessed= 290 (icon). Possessed are 80 points more. For that you get permanent S5 (helpful if not guaranteed a charge, more helpful if you roll FC), a 5++ (good, ebcause cover usually=difficult terrain, and possessed need to avoid that), and a random ability (all are useful, but the randomness must be stressed). You miss out on possible champions (noteworthy, for Fists, not so much for power weapons), bolt pistols (rarely used by berzerker fans for the "off chance" you miss your charge) and possible I5. I think the advantages (5++ and guaranteed S5, most notably) are in and of themselves worth the 8 points per model, but the real shiner is the random ability. Now, against all comers I hazve found great use for scout, furious charge, fleet, and power weapons... 4 of the 6. Granted, we all prefer certain abilities for certian enemies (FC against space marines is insane), but the point is for 80 pts I get berzerkers with everything I'll actually use and some bonuses. Keep in mind there is no "drawback ability" on that random table, the worst you can do is slightly less effective than youd pray for.

 

I don't think that is really the best comparison. The zerks are going to have a champion. It should be 10 zerks with a fist and rhino (285) versus 10 possessed with IoK and a rhino (325). It isn't fair to compare the possessed in an ideal loadout to the zerks in a bad loadout.

 

So, the question is if it is worth paying an extra 40 points and losing a scoring unit to use possessed over berserkers. It is a difficult comparison to make because the possessed are so random, so here's the number for the zerks first (this is versus tac marines with a fist).

 

Zerks

On the charge avg of: 16 regular wounds done(avg 5.3 kills) and 2.22 powerfist wounds (2.22 kills) for a total of 5.5 kills avg. Rounding in the tac marine's favor and assuming fist champ isn't eliminated they then take 1 regular wound (avg .33 kills) and .833 powerfist wounds (.833 kills). Lets call it 1 wound in return.

 

Getting charged avg of: 9 regular wounds done (avg 3 kills) and 1.67 powerfist wounds (1.67 wounds) for a total of 4.67 kills avg. Again rounding in tac marines favor and assuming fist champ lived they take 4.5 wounds (avg 1,5 kills) and 1.25 powerfist wounds (1.25 kills) for a total of 2.75 wounds, so 2-3 die in return.

 

Possessed

The difficult choice is to choose which ability to make the comparison with. Scouts and fleet don't work, and powerweapons are hardly the norm so i'll discount them too. Ideally i'd do it for all of them and average the results, but thats too much work so i'm just going to do it with rending as 4 is a fairly "average" roll.

 

On the charge avg of: 13.33 wounds, so 11.11 regular wounds (3.7 kills) and 2.22 rends (2.22 kills) for a total of 5.9 kills, call it 6. Tac marines hit back simultaneously and so deal 2.25 regular wounds (.75 kills) and .833 fist wounds (.5 kills) for a total of 1.25 so call it 1, same as the zerks took.

 

Getting charged avg of: 10 wounds, so 8.34 regular wounds (2.78 kills) and 1.66 rends (1.66 kills) for a total of 4.44 kills. They take 4.5 regular wounds (1.5 kills) and 1.25 fist wounds (8.33 kills) for a total of 2 kills.

 

So, this comparison is by no means perfect or all encompassing, and i think is slightly in the favor of the possessed by giving them rending, but i think it shows that zerks are about the same while costing 40 less points and being scoring.

[Zeller]

Lest we forget that those Termies are all strength 4 power weapons while the Possessed would be strength 5. Perhaps they are a unit for those with a certain taste. I like them. They are fearless after all and do quite nicely in combat whether they rend or not. Quite frankly I would rather take a harder and more dependable unit such as terminators.

 

Then again aren't some of chaos's fickle qaulities the very same things that help make us a little bit stronger...sometimes?

[Kadaeux]

Lest we forget that those Termies are all strength 4 power weapons while the Possessed would be strength 5. Perhaps they are a unit for those with a certain taste. I like them. They are fearless after all and do quite nicely in combat whether they rend or not. Quite frankly I would rather take a harder and more dependable unit such as terminators.

 

Then again aren't some of chaos's fickle qaulities the very same things that help make us a little bit stronger...sometimes?

 

Personally I use Possessed for three reasons.

 

1: The models look great.

2: They look even better over an opponented casualties.

3: They, with some luck, are tough as nails and used properly can more than make up for their points cost. (Personally unless i'm strapped for an Elite spot i'd rather take 2 units of 10 than 1 unit of 20.) But i'm rarely strapped as I never field Chosen or a Dreadnought. Two units of Possessed and one Unit of Terminators. This leaves your opponent really confused when it comes to who to shoot at.

 

EG:

 

You have three enemy units to choose from to shoot at in this case (just bolters). Two of the units are relatively expensive and are easier to kill than the third unit. The Third unit is tough as nails and can pile on the hurt, not to mention they aren't going to drop easily.

So do you..

 

A: Shoot at the weaker unit that is worth a similar amount in the hopes of a much easier killpoint therefore leaving the most dangerous unit to possibly kill a killpoint themselves.

B: Shoot at the hard unit and hopefully kill some of their really killy stuff denying yourself the Killpoint for keeping something dangerous off of your rear.

C: Run away screaming like a little girl.

 

So far my regular marine opponent has chosen option C every time :D

[the jeske]

This leaves your opponent really confused when it comes to who to shoot at.

an army that has problems with countering 3 units per turn is not a very good one . so for the possessed to work you both need to be lucky [on the roll table what they get] and your opponent has to run a weak army .

A: Shoot at the weaker unit that is worth a similar amount in the hopes of a much easier killpoint therefore leaving the most dangerous unit to possibly kill a killpoint themselves.

B: Shoot at the hard unit and hopefully kill some of their really killy stuff denying yourself the Killpoint for keeping something dangerous off of your rear.

C: Run away screaming like a little girl.

roll to check how many 3 man termi come. rhino wall to shield from part of your army . lash ... lash . oblits oblits . pms double tap .pms double tap . Thats how it looks like in a mirror match . Not everyone plays against sm gunline list . to be honest aside for this forum , I have never actually seen some one use a gunline list in 5th [with success] or a top tier build out of sm that was gunline [that would include the list I see here].

 

 

possessed arent good because to take them one either has to drop both 3 man termi units [and lose anti land raider/mc meta] or oblits [foolish move] or troops [and considering possessed no scoring status its a bad move too] . After that comes the random factor , the fact that they arent really better then zerkers in hth [unless you roll power weapons , but you cant count on always rolling power weapons] . their inv is lower then the normal cover units get in the 5th , so it works only in hth . problem is they move 12" max and cant assault after going out of a transport [unless its a land raider , but then the cost is huge and worth the effort] , so there is a big chance they will have problems with reaching hth . now they could save guard units on objectives ...only a spamed troops unit makes it just as good [if not better in some cases] .

All in all better then dreads , but being better then dreads isnt hard to do and totally equal being semi good .

[Kadaeux]

This leaves your opponent really confused when it comes to who to shoot at.

an army that has problems with countering 3 units per turn is not a very good one . so for the possessed to work you both need to be lucky [on the roll table what they get] and your opponent has to run a weak army .

 

I was referring to "if a single unit finds itself confronted with this." scenario.

 

My opponents tend to worry about my Defilers more than my Possessed (Which I usually only ever field five of for appearance not use)

 

I would never field Possessed in a competetive list for the reasons stated.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Well again, for every use of possessed people are saying if you swapped them with berserkers it'd be the same thing. Except cheaper and scoring.

[djkest]

If only you could assault out of a rhino, I think that would make possessed that much better.

 

Was that Comparison counting the berserkers with furious charge?

 

On the charge, berserkers, have 4 attacks, WS 5, STR 5, INI 5....

 

Possessed have 3 attacks, STR 5, INI 4 + random ability which could be good (or not)

 

Interesting scenario, if you took fabius bile and enhanced your possesed, you have a 67% chance to add +1 strength to them, so they would be running around with str 6, str 7 if they got furious charge, would be equally scary with power weapons or rending. At str 6, you become a threat to almost any tupe of MC you can think of, and to any vehicle save a land raider you can actually penetrate...

 

Which now begs the question, what is the baddest unit you can put into a Land Raider?

9 Possessed with Icon (any of them would actually be good), Champion, lead by Lord or Sorceror.... would probably be more fearsome than a 5 man terminator unit no matter how you "slice" it.... unless you are fighting power armored or termy opponents.

 

Interesting combinations:

Feel No Pain and Icon of Tzeentch or Nurgle

Power Weapons and Icon of Khorne or Slaanesh

Rending and IoK or IoS

Furious Charge and IoK

 

Any of those combos could really, really cause a problem for your enemies.

 

Anyone seen the bloodletter possessed yet? Has it been done?

[Brother Nihm]

Interesting scenario, if you took fabius bile and enhanced your possesed, you have a 67% chance to add +1 strength to them, so they would be running around with str 6, str 7 if they got furious charge, would be equally scary with power weapons or rending. At str 6, you become a threat to almost any tupe of MC you can think of, and to any vehicle save a land raider you can actually penetrate...

Iirc you can only enhance the unit : Chaos Space Marines, and not Possessed.

[Ace of Gods]

Let us not forget the many other variations you can do. Icon of Tzeentch and you got a squad of 3/4+, that keeps there Invulnerable in HtH, much better odds surviving power weapons, and with there strength 5 they would much easier. Or nurgle, though expensive, gives em a tougher save, along with a higher strength, should fair well to most small arms fire from assault squads attacking them, or help you in the melee that follows. Having another icon for higher Init, with strength 5 is also a great plus, in my opinion better than nurgle. If you kill them first, they dont get to roll to attack, hence you never have to make that save from them in the first place. Though this isnt effective versus someone shooting you, but is very helpful in h2h. I run possessed in every game i play. one squad, linked into a rhino. These are purely a walking destructive force of doom. I dont know if its me, or the luck of the gods, but they seem to make many of their invulnerable saves more often than many other models making checks during my games. Could just be circumstance. Though, i do wish we could go back to selecting their power, or makingthem cheaper so we could upgrade if we wanted into a power like last edition.

 

Oh, and a side not i forgot, squads of possessed can be made into bigger groups also than the termies can, so thats always helpful.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

If only you could assault out of a rhino, I think that would make possessed that much better.

 

Was that Comparison counting the berserkers with furious charge?

 

On the charge, berserkers, have 4 attacks, WS 5, STR 5, INI 5....

 

Being able to assault out of a moving rhino would make berserkers even better.

 

And yes my comparison included furious charge. Hence me doing one for each charging and being charged.

 

Let us not forget the many other variations you can do. Icon of Tzeentch and you got a squad of 3/4+, that keeps there Invulnerable in HtH, much better odds surviving power weapons, and with there strength 5 they would much easier. Or nurgle, though expensive, gives em a tougher save, along with a higher strength, should fair well to most small arms fire from assault squads attacking them, or help you in the melee that follows. Having another icon for higher Init, with strength 5 is also a great plus, in my opinion better than nurgle. If you kill them first, they dont get to roll to attack, hence you never have to make that save from them in the first place. Though this isnt effective versus someone shooting you, but is very helpful in h2h.

 

The flexible icon options is one of the nice things about possessed. The problem is that other than khorne they are highly situational. Tzeentch is great if you want something to deal with a high power weapon or low ap unit, but its really expensive. Nurgle is just really expensive, and slaanesh is highly situational and tends to get wasted if you arn't playing vs marines. And of course if you don't take khorne then berserkers definetly out perform possessed.

[Brother Vader]

I think possessed make a nice fluffy option for a non-khorne cult army that wants some CC troops that don't happen to be berzerkers but they'd be better if you rolled for the power before deployment (or picked it), and they really should have frag grenades (or some gribbly daemonic equivalent). I wouldn't be too keen on running them in a Slaanesh army if, just by lurking in cover, my opponent can negate the superior initiative of my CC squad.

"we are the possessed of Slaanesh, the fastest, baddest children of she who thirsts, our attacks strike with superhuman speed, unless you're hiding behind a bush, then we're really slow. Curse you and your cowardly foliage-lurking tactics."

[CelestialSon]

possessed arent good because to take them one either has to drop both 3 man termi units

 

The number of times i've seen any and all units in the chaos forum dismissed by 3 man terminator units...

 

Anyway, possessed are not that bad IMO. I'm not sure how much a 5+ invulnerable save, str 5 and a free rolled up ability is supposed to cost. 26 points doesn't seem too off. Let's be honest, none of the abilities on the possessed ability chart are that bad, except the non scout-scout. Even rolling a 2 still makes the difference between possessed and cult troops apparent. Possessed fill a nice between chaos space marines and chosen terminators, both in price and performance. Unfortunatly, 40k metagame has dictated lately that in between units suck... but individual results may differ

[the jeske]

The number of times i've seen any and all units in the chaos forum dismissed by 3 man terminator units...

ok what would you drop ? the scoring troops . you have to play with set number at given pts , taking fewer is asking for trouble in 2/3 of games . droping oblits for a hth unit with random powers ??? not in this life . what is there .. ah yeah HQ , but they are compulsory . I could drop one at more pts [when lets say we play 1850+ games] , but then having two strong counter units really helps losing one fast counter unit [am not even going in to the trading lash for possessed thing] for a slow one [+ you dont really get that many possessed for a DP].

 

 

 

Unfortunatly, 40k metagame has dictated lately that in between units suck... but individual results may differ

could you explain this ? what do you mean invidual results . I dont see possessed run in any top tier chaos armies no matter then place they are used . Even the UK tournaments [that are seen as the fluff ones] dont have them .

[Rathnard]

Well I've been using possessed in my Chaos army, although it's entirely because my Chaos army used to be my 13th company army (which is rapidly becoming illegitimate).

 

The List:

 

Chaos Lord w. Daemon Weapon

8 Possessed w. IoK

8 Possessed w. IoK

10 CSM w. Powerfist Champ, IoK and 2 Meltas

10 CSM w. Powerfist Champ, IoK and 2 Meltas

10 CSM w. Poweraxe Champ, IoK and 2 Plasma

8 Lesser Daemons

8 Lesser Daemons

8 Lesser Daemons

8 Lesser Daemons

5 Bikes w. Powerfist Champ, IoK and 2 Flamers

(2000pts)

 

I've played only two games so far using this list (both wins).

Game 1 was vs Iron Hands (mostly mechanised w. plenty of dreads). I rolled 'fleet' and 'scout' for my possessed, so given the opposing army this was possibly a worst-case scenario. In the end their speed enabled me to run down a vindicator and a tac squad with their rhino (the lesser daemons helped overwhelm the latter). I should also point out that scout and fleet enabled me to deploy those lesser daemons in much better positions than I otherwise could have.

In game 2 I faced an all-infantry Space Wolf army, in which I rolled power weapons for both possessed. Needless to say they did alot of damage, although both units were all but wiped out by the end.

 

In both games, I think their greatest asset was the distraction they provided. Both times the possessed were a very immediate threat for my opponent, so he was forced to deal with them while the rest of my units got stuck in.

 

On the whole I think possessed are decent, and you certainly aren't crippling yourself by taking a unit. They're decent against MEQ, probably very good vs. GEQ and the 5++ save improves their durability over regular marines, especially when in combat.

 

I think other units are arguably, overall better, but that does not mean that possessed are a waste of points.

 

In my personal opinion, I also quite like the randomness of their table. :D

 

And slightly off topic, but lesser daemons are phenomenal. :P

[CelestialSon]

ok what would you drop ? the scoring troops . you have to play with set number at given pts , taking fewer is asking for trouble in 2/3 of games . droping oblits for a hth unit with random powers ??? not in this life . what is there .. ah yeah HQ , but they are compulsory . I could drop one at more pts [when lets say we play 1850+ games] , but then having two strong counter units really helps losing one fast counter unit [am not even going in to the trading lash for possessed thing] for a slow one [+ you dont really get that many possessed for a DP].

 

 

Unfortunatly, 40k metagame has dictated lately that in between units suck... but individual results may differ

could you explain this ? what do you mean invidual results . I dont see possessed run in any top tier chaos armies no matter then place they are used . Even the UK tournaments [that are seen as the fluff ones] dont have them .

 

 

I wouldn't run any of the above. I'd run bikes or raptors before obilts or terminators. Heck, i'd run infiltrating chosen before terminators with 3 man squads with one shot plasmas. That's a big fat kill point with 3 wounds. I don't consider possessed that bad, but i wouldn't run them. I wouldn't run them because chaos already has close combat in spades, and i run tons of basic CSM squads. But i also know that possessed are better in close combat against orks, nids, most daemon troops and even vehicles because of their higher strength and invulnerable save. I'd consider the IoS one possessed, then they'd be more useful against MeQs.

 

As for inbetween units not being that great in the metagame, there's nothing to explain. It's a matter of opinion. I don't see the value or tactical use in reducing 40k to rock-paper-scissors.

[Brother Nihm]

Personally I don't see at rock-paper-scissors but more like a conscious selection of units that you can depend on in most scenarios (pun intended)

 

Using the above example of Possessed vs Terminators and Dreadnoughts (all elites), the possessed abilities are random, and as mentioned we already have plenty of CC capabilities elsewhere, dreadnoughts are unstable and are often a detriment to your own forces + they are 'only' AV 12 at best. Terminators have the ability to deepstrike, to be given icons, to attach a terminator armoured Lord to, to be mounted in a 'raider, and to be configured anyway you want them to, be it anti-MEQ, anti-horde, anti-vehicle or even a mix of the three (something I've seen few players do, but the option is there!). And they're dirt cheap for what they can do.

 

Sure the possessed are great, especially if you roll rending, but for their cost, limited application (CC only) and method of transportation, they suddenly lose a lot of appeal to the tournament going gamer.

 

 

Personally I'd only ever use them in a campaign if it fit the background, I won't even field them in friendly games, which is sad because the very nature of having daemonic possessed marines appeals to me.

 

 

My 2 Kraks

[djkest]

If you did happen to get power weapons and Icon of Slaanesh, they would be pretty evil against terminators and MEQs... still only hit on a 4+ though, unlike berserkers. I guess yeah, they are definitely random. And also very scary for most oppenents.

 

Would the fearless rule negate losing troops with a losing combat result?

[Pyro_Falcon]

TBH possesed need better potential payoffs than power weapons to be worth it, i love the chaos-random gamble bit, but you need a potential payout on a bet, why put a monkey on the 3:15 at aintree when the best payout is a beer at the end of the day. I love the figs though, I wan to convert them for my renegade sternguard...

 

-Pyro

[doctor_wu]

TBH possesed need better potential payoffs than power weapons to be worth it, i love the chaos-random gamble bit, but you need a potential payout on a bet, why put a monkey on the 3:15 at aintree when the best payout is a beer at the end of the day. I love the figs though, I wan to convert them for my renegade sternguard...

 

-Pyro

I actually think possessed would represent vanguard better since they are assualty but it could work either way. Some of the sterngaurd would become chosen though. I doubt all 80 like you said were in your other topic would actually allow themselves to be possessed. There probably should still be some chosen.

[Pyro_Falcon]

oh, yh you read that, I was thinking not using them as possesed but using some of the pieces, like the torsos and then add on shooty bits to show that they were chaos, so I had an excuse to use the minis, bear in mind this isn't the terminators, we'll say they were chosen and in a bid to impress the gods, the un-chosen guys(who werent given terminator armour) allowed themselves to be possesed.

 

-pyro