Tactica: Killhammer 40k - Target Priority

[Warp Angel]

Something that may help to get people to understand and use killhammer ideas is to explain how they already use it - for example, a lot of people talk about "units getting their points back". If you explain new ideas in context of old ideas, they're much easier to accept and adapt.

 

Killhammer specifically isn't about getting your points back. It's about killing your opponent. It's about creating a gap in killing capability that your opponent can't recover from. It's about negating the effectiveness of his army as quickly as possible.

 

And it acknowledges the fact that "everything dies." You shouldn't care if something of yours dies. It was inevitable. As long as you didn't throw it away, it served its purpose. And if its service isn't of any value, it's time to reevaluate the usefulness.

 

An example of why "getting your points back" is a less than useful measure, is the TH/SS termies in a Land Raider crusader. That's around 500 points of your army. In a 2000 point game, the odds of those half dozen or so models killing 500 points of the enemy is pretty slim. But when looked at in terms of capability and raw killing power, there's not a whole lot else that vanilla Marines can field that can go toe to toe with monstrous creatures and small units of elite infantry (ork nobz) and come out on top. The land raider, even if it never kills anything, but delivers the terminators to a target they otherwise couldn't reach, and that nothing else in your army is equipped to handle, has done its job.

 

It's your job as the general, (and presumably by your reading this article) using killhammer principles, to determine when and how to use the Terminators and their Land Raider. Or whether to even include them in your list.

 

As such, Killhammer provides guidelines for the evaluation of their inclusion and use in your army.

[Ricter]

Right, I understand that. I just provided that as an example because I didn't know of something more similar to killhammer that people already use.

[Orphus]

*NECROMANCY NOT INTENDED*

Just discovered this and

Wow Warp Angel, this is really amazing :woot:

I only wish I had discovered this earlier :D

Has changed the way I look at playing the game ( for the better ;))

My Tau and Wolves salute you and your work!

 

Kudos upon you!

[Warp Angel]

Thank you. It needs some revision and clarification... there's some related tactica in my sig (also needing revision and clarification). Take a look at some of Jackalope King's recent topics in this forum for some synergistic views.

[Mithril hound]

And this is why fielding 15 thunderwolves is a good idea.

[Ming]

Loved reading this. As you had seen from "vs Ork" threads - there may be some very interesting impications for me to personally try. Against our favorite Ork horde player - I've been trying to crack him in the following target priority:

 

Ghaz'z Truck - Ghaz/Nobz mob - Stormboyz - Kan Mobs - Lootas mob - Ork boyz mobz - Grotz mob

 

In light of this theory / philosophy, target priority changes for Killhammer ((K1-K2) - (D1+D2) + S) to (My Own relative Modifiers on a 6 scale):

 

Trukk - (2-2)-(3-1)+5 = 3

Lootas - (4-1)-(2+3)+5 = 3

Stormboyz (one maxed mob) - (4-2)-(2+2)+5 = 3

Ghaz - (6-2)-(6+6)+5 = -3

Nobz (FNP, tooled up) - (5-2)-(6+5)+5 = -3

Kans (3 mobz, 3 each) - (4-4)-(4+3)+5 = -2

Boyz (2 large mobz) - (5-3)-(4+5)+5 = -2

Grotz (medium-large mob) - (2-6)-(1+6)+5 = -6

 

So...the best bang for the buck goes something like:

 

Trukk - Stormboyz mob - Lootas mob - Kans mobz - Boyz mobz - Ghaz/Nobz mob - Grotz.....

 

Kill the truck, make Ghaz and nobz walk.

Kill the stormboyz - eliminates the fast assault. Moves down the list if held in reserve.

Kill the Lootas - eliminates his high S, large dice rolling unit that can pop my transports or whittle down my units.

Kans and Boyz go next - preferably by focusing on each in turn, and hopefully separated by distance. Kans first if they give cover to the boyz.

Last priority choice goes to the nobz mob - since they remain scoring and tough as nails with Ghaz, and grotz (also scoring but weak). His nobz are not long-range in firepower. Grotz are no threat - in fact a lucky shot or eight might make them walk away entirely. Grotz become the target of HF speeders or templates when opportunity knocks.

Ghaz needs to just be isolated or tied up...wasting firepower on him is exactly what happens...The problem is making that happen, and keeping him at a distance. Of course his threat is higher than maybe stated - since he gives the waaaugh boost to the others. But accompanied by the nobz, he is nigh unkillable.

 

Of course the whole entire plan has to occur largely in turns 1 and 2, unless sacrifices are made...

 

Trukk - Stormboyz - Lootas - Kans/Boyz - Ghaz/Nobz - Grotz.....

 

Thoughts? Missing anything on the application of the idea here?

[Warp Angel]

Loved reading this. As you had seen from "vs Ork" threads - there may be some very interesting impications for me to personally try. Against our favorite Ork horde player - I've been trying to crack him in the following target priority:

 

Ghaz'z Truck - Ghaz/Nobz mob - Stormboyz - Kan Mobs - Lootas mob - Ork boyz mobz - Grotz mob

 

In light of this theory / philosophy, target priority changes for Killhammer ((K1-K2) - (D1+D2) + S) to (My Own relative Modifiers on a 6 scale):

 

Trukk - (2-2)-(3-1)+5 = 3

Lootas - (4-1)-(2+3)+5 = 3

Stormboyz (one maxed mob) - (4-2)-(2+2)+5 = 3

Ghaz - (6-2)-(6+6)+5 = -3

Nobz (FNP, tooled up) - (5-2)-(6+5)+5 = -3

Kans (3 mobz, 3 each) - (4-4)-(4+3)+5 = -2

Boyz (2 large mobz) - (5-3)-(4+5)+5 = -2

Grotz (medium-large mob) - (2-6)-(1+6)+5 = -6

 

So...the best bang for the buck goes something like:

 

Trukk - Stormboyz mob - Lootas mob - Kans mobz - Boyz mobz - Ghaz/Nobz mob - Grotz.....

 

Kill the truck, make Ghaz and nobz walk.

Kill the stormboyz - eliminates the fast assault. Moves down the list if held in reserve.

Kill the Lootas - eliminates his high S, large dice rolling unit that can pop my transports or whittle down my units.

Kans and Boyz go next - preferably by focusing on each in turn, and hopefully separated by distance. Kans first if they give cover to the boyz.

Last priority choice goes to the nobz mob - since they remain scoring and tough as nails with Ghaz, and grotz (also scoring but weak). His nobz are not long-range in firepower. Grotz are no threat - in fact a lucky shot or eight might make them walk away entirely. Grotz become the target of HF speeders or templates when opportunity knocks.

Ghaz needs to just be isolated or tied up...wasting firepower on him is exactly what happens...The problem is making that happen, and keeping him at a distance. Of course his threat is higher than maybe stated - since he gives the waaaugh boost to the others. But accompanied by the nobz, he is nigh unkillable.

 

Of course the whole entire plan has to occur largely in turns 1 and 2, unless sacrifices are made...

 

Trukk - Stormboyz - Lootas - Kans/Boyz - Ghaz/Nobz - Grotz.....

 

Thoughts? Missing anything on the application of the idea here?

 

Keep in mind that terrain is going to play a factor with any S consideration and that you re-evaluate every turn. If you do manage to strand Ghaz at the far side of the board (say when he arrives in a Dawn of War scenario), you might just ignore him as you table everything else. Stay flexible is about the only advice I can add.

[Algesan]

 

Thoughts? Missing anything on the application of the idea here?

 

Keep in mind that terrain is going to play a factor with any S consideration and that you re-evaluate every turn. If you do manage to strand Ghaz at the far side of the board (say when he arrives in a Dawn of War scenario), you might just ignore him as you table everything else. Stay flexible is about the only advice I can add.

 

I think my S is obvious here.

 

I actually think the Kanz are the biggest priority on turn 1, at least to punch a hole in them, then you can refocus on the Trukk. The Boyz (120 of them) are brutal and the core of the list, but the easiest to kill. They can be used to cover the entire board and allow no maneuver room and maneuver is what you need to beat this list unless you are trying to match it in a mass orgy of horde CC. Well, you could try a horde gunline. I'd wonder how my Sisters with an inducted IG platoon would hold out. A flurry of bolters, flamers, melta and mortar barrages with some autocannon support. Oh, and a few Exorcists for fun.

 

I don't care about his max coherency spread when I'm dropping 5x 3 mortar barrages on him, yes, he does save some hits by spreading out, but he also makes it harder for me to totally miss, so even firing blind isn't a bad option.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

I think my S is obvious here.

 

I actually think the Kanz are the biggest priority on turn 1, at least to punch a hole in them, then you can refocus on the Trukk.

:blush:

 

Foot things will not touch you on T1-2, with average running they cover 19" and so can probably assault you on T3.

Boyz can fleet via Waaagh! 25" on average on T2 but even then should not hit you on T2 because you'll have rolled backwards.

 

The trukk, on the other hand, is delivering as unit 18" on T1. Even MegaNobz can get an easy T2 assault off. 12+2+1.5+d6+d6 = 22.5"

18+22.5 = 40.5"

Unless I have made a mistake....

 

Why wouldn't you destroy an easy target that is such an excellent envelope for delivering units that are best on the charge and are much better in mêlée against Guards than when shooting at them?

Plus the earlier you pop the trukk gives you more time to gun down the passengers and if you are lucky, you blow it up when it is near other Orks for some extra killz and even kill or pin the passengers.

 

Plus the wreckage could slow down following units. Every inch counts.

 

AV10 and open topped is begging for a destruction.

 

Light transports are almost always no.1 for the poppin'

:)

[Ming]

Have you even read my reports vs this ork list? Myself and others fight this list monthly...seems like anyways (although it seemd we may see these orks less and less as the player is looking for a new challenge).

 

Target priority for the trukk itself is unchanged via killhammer. The bigger issue from a killhammer standpoint is reducing his power as quickly as possible and getting something for it. Where we have all failed is trying to kill the hardest to kill unit first (especially if it cannot max its S1 and S2 ratings till turn 2 or later). I've spent games popping the trukk easily as the first dice I throw, then using as much as 75% of my strength to try and eliminate Ghaz and his 9 or so drinking buddies, and the other 25% holding off the sotrmboyz. Once traction is achieved (or I'm being slaughtered by those 2 units), I still getting swamped by 2 or 3 units delivering 90 to 120+ assault dice on 10 lowly marines each.

 

The concept via killhammer is every turn to change target priority to something that needs it the most. In the above, which is a turn 1 assessment, if Ghaz and Nobz can be forced to walk from their start line (a good reason to go first or hope to steal the initiative) by popping the trukk, the concept is to focus fire on the lootas and stormboyz, rather than wasting dice on the former occupants of the trukk. The stormboyz have a long reach and will get a turn 2 charge if still on the table. The lootas remain a priority turn 1 because they are the long-reach distraction that can with a high dice roll lay waste to a marine squad or major vehicle every turn. Each loota eliminated reduces his fire by d3 shoting dice.

 

In a turn 2 assessment - everything would change - assuming Ghaz is walking (slowly but purposefully), it is likely the focus becomes Kans and Boyz, because they arrive like a freight train in turn 3 (or 4 for the Kans).

 

In a turn 3 assessment...er...well....if turn 1 and 2 did not go well, turn 3 is....well....nothing but a giant casualty report for the administrata to read and file in the archives...company lost....yadayada...

 

Otherwise, turn 3 boils down to boyz, kans, and lootas.

 

Turn 4 becomes hide from Ghaz/nobz and focus on whats left and/or grab objectives.

 

Turn 5, pop a cigar, because regardless, making it this far vs this list is a feat of celebration....but really, kill the survivors with shooting and protect the objectives...

 

So in a summary the changes might be by turn (in a perfect game, going first vs this list):

 

Turn 1 - Trukk - Stormboyz mob - Lootas mob - Kans mobz - Boyz mobz - Ghaz/Nobz mob - Grotz

Turn 2 - Stormboyz mob - Kans mobz - Boyz mobz - Ghaz/Nobz mob - Lootas mob - Grotz

Turn 3 - Boyz mobz - Kans mobz - Ghaz/Nobz mob - Lootas mob - Grotz

Turn 4 - Boyz mobz - Kan mob - Ghaz/Nobz mob - Lootas mob - Grotz

Turn 5 - Ghaz/Nobz mob

Turn 6 - Ghaz

 

Note in my last major game his killhammer priority was what he could reach (dawn of war, 4 or so objectives, centerline deployment, marines deploying first):

 

Turn 1 - tac squad and rhino (speedbump - was used to make orks deploy as far back as possible - should have run it away on turn 1, but decoded to shoot at the trukk with it)

Turn 2 - Assault terminators, assault marines, Sternguard and Librarian sent to kill the walking Ghaz and Nobz (actually lasted to turn 4)

Turn 3 - Sternguard and Librarian (still holding in the center), Assault terminators, assault marines, Captain, Speeder, Speeder (all sent out to attack his units but were overwhelmed in response). Waaugh occured on this turn.

Turn 4 - Sternguard and Librarian, Captain, tac squad (sent out to try to eliminate a bunch of boyz mob survivors moving on an objective)

Turn 5 - rhino, tac squad, rhino (all sent to contest objectives, all were eliminated in ork turn assault)

 

I was not tabled - still had a captain, demi tac squad, razor, pred, devs, maybe one or two other things. He was dented hard, but Ghaz and a few nob survivors contested my objective at the end and held his own with boyz and grotz for a massacre.

 

Using the theory above, should have used the sternguard and libby on a different target than ghaz/nobz, and focused fire on other units. Again, 75% of my firepower was put on ghaz and the nobz turns 1 and 2 - they actually broke, but ran away, rallied, and came back to eventually be in my deployment zone at the end. Focusing on other stuff would have greatly changed the game.

[Warp Angel]

So... the real question here - has the Killhammer philosophy provided any positive impact towards game resolution?

 

And in more advanced applications of Killhammer - do you have what you think are the right distributions of unit roles (Hunter, Killer, Firebase, and Defender)?

 

I especially encourage you to think strongly in terms of Hunters (disposable, disrupting, tarpit units) and evaluate Jackalope King's recent tacticas on disruptive elements. The way you beat a juggernaught is by redirecting or eliminating its momentum. You've got the disruption started with going after Ghaz's transport early, but are there other things you can do to slow down the advance or force some of it to turn around or not advance for a turn or two?

[Ming]

I think in terms of killhammer, vs this type of horde list (and equally applicable to playing vs Tyranids or horde IG) - for codex marine players - many experiments have been done with few successes. My "all comers" lists have been applying "boosters" to improve overall performance, sergeants have combi-flamers, and rhinos often carry HKMs to make sure we can get high S hits in on turn 1 in DOW games and others - anything that can improve numbers of dice thrown are important. This you see I use Kantor (and soon Vulkan) in games, as often as librarians for the buffs they bring.

 

For BA players - a big disruption unit and major threat is found in the BA death co dreads, which with talons can cause a huge amount of damage to large units (and eliminate small units). They can wreck a horde unit before it can respond, and then tarpit the survivors. Wish codex marines had something similar. Point for point is better than assault terminators for what you can get.

[Algesan]

I've read the reports, but as you mentioned, popping the Trukk is fairly easy, so I'm not against popping the Trukk. I'm looking past turn 1 and seeing 120 Boyz sucking away every last bit of my mobility options. Armies can be rated movey, shooty or assaulty, both offensively and defensively. The Orks are assaulty, plus their size makes them nicely defensive against shooty and the sheer numbers choke mobility to death.

 

Now, pop two Kanz in one unit on your first turn shooting. <poof> There went two Kan-widths + 8" of mobile terrain. Start pouring torrent of fire into the throat of one of the Boyz squads (which can include the Stormboyz if you have a shot). Immediately you start opening up the board for your mobility (since unless you are a matching horde, you have to be able to move!). Then try to pop the Trukk, then go back to killing Kanz with AT and Boyz with AI.

 

If you cannot start eliminating Boyz quickly enough (you need to kill at least 20 in each of the troop squads) to start getting morale checks, they will swamp you. Assuming a flat board (no terrain), the trooper Boyz can cover a moving block of the board by deploying ~7x 4 abreast with 2 extras. Here they come and where are you going to hide? Unless you play IG (and I've found that the IG Codex has more Barrage weapons than the rulebook reference lists, so it might be possible for other armies as well), then the AP of your weapons doesn't matter, because they are going to get a 4+ or 5+ cover save from Kanz blocking LOS.

 

I want that two turns (minimum) of shooting them before those huge squads slam into me. Without reducing the number of casualties I cause by 1/2 to 1/3.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

For BA players - a big disruption unit and major threat is found in the BA death co dreads, which with talons can cause a huge amount of damage to large units (and eliminate small units). They can wreck a horde unit before it can respond, and then tarpit the survivors. Wish codex marines had something similar. Point for point is better than assault terminators for what you can get.

 

An Ironclad with one or two HF?

Sure you are not doing the kills in mêlée, but you still tarpit them with AV13. Plus it can wreck Dredds and MegaNobz before they strike....