1750 GK Batrep vs. IG

[Aidoneus]

Ah, I see now. That makes more sense. And yeah, that certainly would work. That being said though, I think I still prefer taking my chances with the pure GK tri-raider list than a mixed dual-raider variation. Personal preference. I should point out too, this is the first time I've put everything in reserves like that. Don't get me wrong, I do it all the time in Dawn of War, but that's not really the same, is it? There, I get guaranteed 1st-turn reserves. Granted, I think how I played this game worked pretty well, so I might do it again, but on the other hand, it worked pretty well without improved comms, so I feel like the list is forgiving enough to survive without the comms. Bottom line, if I could take 'em on raiders, I would. But it's not worth inducting guard.

 

Mal: I am well aware of the report button, and use it fairly often. However, this is MY thread, so I feel like I have some right and some authority to keep it on topic. Make no mistake though, if things continue to digress even after my warning, I won't hesitate to report people.

[Thaelion Hexis]

Keep it civil. If there is a problem, hit the report button or PM myself or number6. I want no vigilantes.

 

In regards to the topic at hand, keep it specific to the battle report, or tactics regarding such a match up. I don't want a 'guard post that I have to nuke.

[JCarter]

Just a suggestion, Aidoneus: Make and carry with you a crater big enough to hold a LR (or of the same area). If you lose a LR to explosion, do as the BBB says and replace the vehicle with the crater and put the PAX where the vehicle was (in the crater). Check the wording in the BBB. In torn three, your PAX would then have had a cover save after the vehicle disintegrated around them, a not unreasonable situation (given the amount of wreckage that would normally be in the area) and perfectly in accord with the rules.

[Aidoneus]

Actually, we wanted to do just that. We had some area markers in 4th ed that we used to mark exploded vehicles, and which gave 5+ saves, in accordance with the rules. Problem is, those markers don't work in 5th ed, because they don't actually block any LoS whatsoever. We just need to make so new, 3-D markers, and we'll be fine. But yeah, that definitely would have helped me out, especially with those 6 plasma deaths! :D

[boreas]

Aren't craters 4+ cover save? It's the upside for losing a transport (very "the glass is half-full"!).

 

Phil

[Aidoneus]

I could be wrong, but I thought dead tanks (pen 5) gave 4+ cover saves, whereas craters from dead tanks (pen 6) gave 5+ cover saves.

[number6]

I could be wrong, but I thought dead tanks (pen 5) gave 4+ cover saves, whereas craters from dead tanks (pen 6) gave 5+ cover saves.

That's how most people probably will play craters. There is a list of suggestions for cover save values in the BRB, of course, but such things should be discussed ahead of the game. Nothing is set in stone anymore! I myself have played against opponents who just didn't want to think about cover save differences and just asked for everything to be 4+, from buildings to light fences. That works out fine, too.

 

Excellent batrep, Aidoneus, and a very well-played game. :rolleyes: One of my regular opponents plays IG, and when I play my dual raider list I find that I almost always do the same thing you did: put everything into reserve and try and come in on a flank. It's surprisingly effective ... provided you don't get blown up with a lascannon.

 

Speaking of which, excellent recovery from the early loss of one of your own. I was impressed with your turn-by-turn risk analysis. As much as the general gaming community has it in for IG in Annihilation -- and maybe that is warranted -- your opponent obviously was no pushover. You prevailed over a tough and worthy foe.

 

If you play this opponent more often -- as you say you do -- I would be very interested to read more batreps.

[Aidoneus]

Thanks Number6! I must say though, I'm surprised to hear that you play a dual-raider list. I always thought of you as the king of infantry Daemonhunters, with Silent Requiem as your foil. What drove you to try the dual-raider list, and how has it been treating you?

 

I'll try to post more batreps. This was actually my first game since school started in september (not counting a local tourney in early october). However, with winter break coming up, I plan to make up for lost time. My two regular opponents are TJ (who normally plays IG, but is starting White Scars) and Agrab (who plays marines). I'm playing Agrab next saturday, so I'll try to use this same 1750 list against him, and post another batrep. No promises, but I'll try.

[revnow]

As both a Guard and DH player I'll get in on this. Well played Aidoneus, especially using the drive on maneuver in a killpoint game against a static firepower style army.

 

To add to Silent Requiem's earlier comments about the advantages on driving on from reserve. The greatest advantage Aidoneus' strategy offered was the effective elimination of 1/3 of the opponent's firepower. IG strategy against a heavily armored elite army is all about the numbers. A single IG lascannon has a 8.33% chance of penetrating AV14 in any given shot. If you add enough of them up and add in template and other firepower, eventually you are going to penetrate something and either destroy or immobilize it. The key is being able to put out the weight of fire power necessary each turn to achieve that. This army is almost always the "control" army, as Silent Requiem would put it, requiring the entire game to exact its victory conditions. By driving on in the bottom of turn 2 Aidoneus eliminated 1/3rd of that control capacity, severely curtailing the opponent's game length fire output through turning 5-7 turns of shooting into 3-5.

 

Now, I have a question about, and a critique of your opponent's strategy.

 

What doctrines were taken?

 

The way your opponent played this army dramatically weakened its potential. Given an initial look at your list an IG player should be able to see that your longest range guns are 48" which means that for you to bring your longest range guns into play you come in range of a good deal of the IG's heaviest firepower. Spreading out was the first poor choice, even given no pre-information but a look at your list and the knowledge of it being a killpoints game. Your opponent should have concentrated forces in a hardened corner that maximized cover (probably through use of the squads that would have the least effect). If your opponent had Chameleoline (and they really should) your two Godhammers are just not going to be able to generate enough killpoints by themselves over the course of 3-5 turns via a lascannon duel while still remaining untouched. Which means to win you would have to bring your Crusader within 24" and more preferably 12" to generate any kills from infantry.

 

Then, your opponent offered up the plasma squad to you, which you dealt with very nicely given adverse circumstances. This act let you maintain the initiative in a killpoints game. When a static army plays a dynamic army the static army absolutely must dictate the terms by which the dynamic army acquires killpoints. Unless that vet squad was packed chalk full of meltas it really should have been started deployed with the rest of the army to act as a strike arm in the event of a Land Raider being destroyed. Additionally, units that offered up easy killpoints and couldn't actively contribute to the game should have been crammed as far back as possible, preferably obscured by the wall of AV 14 (Chimera, Hellhound). This would have forced you to "come get" killpoints as it were, rather than allowing you to acquire them on your terms.

 

These two tactical considerations would have made the game easier for your opponent, although still very difficult given your own strategic thinking.

 

Overall very well played, but you might be faced with a tougher situation in the case of a Guard opponent who turtles and plays the scenario a bit better.

 

Edit: Sorry forgot a few things

 

If nothing else use a spare large blast template to signify wreckage area terrain, maximize those cover saves at all cost!

 

Also, where are the pics, I was promised pics

[Aidoneus]

To add to Silent Requiem's earlier comments about the advantages on driving on from reserve. The greatest advantage Aidoneus' strategy offered was the effective elimination of 1/3 of the opponent's firepower. IG strategy against a heavily armored elite army is all about the numbers. A single IG lascannon has a 8.33% chance of penetrating AV14 in any given shot. If you add enough of them up and add in template and other firepower, eventually you are going to penetrate something and either destroy or immobilize it. The key is being able to put out the weight of fire power necessary each turn to achieve that. This army is almost always the "control" army, as Silent Requiem would put it, requiring the entire game to exact its victory conditions. By driving on in the bottom of turn 2 Aidoneus eliminated 1/3rd of that control capacity, severely curtailing the opponent's game length fire output through turning 5-7 turns of shooting into 3-5.

Excellent point revnow. I forgot to mention this, but it was part of my pre-game consideration. I love to essentially deny my opponent entire game turns. Makes my life, as a fairly defensive (perhaps "conservative") player, much easier.

 

What doctrines were taken?

I figured eventually an IG player would wander in and ask that question. As I said, I don't have his list here, so I'll try to list these from memory. First off, this was a reduction from his 2000pt list, which used another vet squad (grenades, I think), so he took (but in this case didn't make use of) the Veterans doctrine. He used Iron Discipline, Sharpshooters (which really helps him, always), and Close Order Drill. I know he had a 5th, but I can't for the life of me remember. Sometimes he'll play with much more... flashy doctrines. He's drop-trooped his entire army, mechanized it, taken independent commissars, etc. He also usually does use either camleonine cloaks or carapace armour, but I think in this list we wanted cheap troops squads, so he eschewed expensive doctrines.

 

Spreading out was the first poor choice, even given no pre-information but a look at your list and the knowledge of it being a killpoints game.

I don't know about all that 48" range business, but I agree with this statement. I know that he forgot that reserves could come on from the entire board edge. He thought they came on from any edge in your starting quarter. Even still, I agree that he should have stayed together more. The plasma squad he really hoped wouldn't come in until my infantry were on the board. He uses that squad to clean up when he pops transports, so he wants them close, but I don't think he really considered how hard my 3 raiders would be to crack open. So yeah, they would have been better off in the building with the missile launcher squad.

 

I think part of the problem is that TJ has gotten used to be a fairly aggressive IG player. He likes to flank just as much as I do. And usually it works well for him, getting his short-ranged stuff active, hitting side armour, taking objectives. So I think he was in that mindset here, and just didn't realize he'd be better served hanging back and hunkering down in cover. One thing I have no doubt of though, TJ will learn from this, and next game will be harder. ;)

 

If nothing else use a spare large blast template to signify wreckage area terrain, maximize those cover saves at all cost!

Indeed. We did place index cards on the table to represent the wreckage (difficult and dangerous terrain, plus cover), but again, because they weren't actually 3-D, they didn't actually block on LoS, so in 5th ed they couldn't have possibly provided actual cover saves. I do have some foam at home though, that I plan on carving up and turning into craters, so this shouldn't be a problem any more after that.

 

Also, where are the pics, I was promised pics :P

The pictures are linked-to in the initial post. See the bright white, underlined text where I've written things like "End His Turn 1" and such? Click on those, and they link directly to photos of the game board.

 

Thanks for the insight revnow! Good to hear from the side of the Earth player for more analysis on that end of things.

[revnow]

Actually, with regard to 3-D and LoS in 5th Edition, by the very rules themselves your models should have gotten cover saves. When a vehicle explodes the models in the vehicle must occupy the space of the wreckage or crater that signifies the remains of the vehicle. Whether or not the area terrain actively blocks LoS is meaningless with respect to it being area terrain and therefore generating a 4+ cover save. This is especially true with models in area terrain as a result of a detonated transport as both wreckage and craters are covered as 4+ cover.

 

I just think that it would have been reasonable and sporting for your opponent to give your Knights a cover save after having just turned their phat ride to smoldering rubble

[number6]

Thanks Number6! I must say though, I'm surprised to hear that you play a dual-raider list. I always thought of you as the king of infantry Daemonhunters, with Silent Requiem as your foil. What drove you to try the dual-raider list, and how has it been treating you?

Heh. Infantry, backed up by Dreadnoughts, is still how I play 3/4 or more of my games with the army. However, in preparation for Adepticon earlier this year, I dedicated myself to purchasing and painting a pair of land raiders and took that set up to the tourney with me. So I played a few warmups that way, played Adepticon that way, and still occasionally bust 'em out for variety. It can be very fun, but I'm more enthralled with PAGKs than anything else, so I wants to pack as many of 'em onto the table as is possible most of the time. Land raiders do inhibit that. ;)

[Aidoneus]

I just think that it would have been reasonable and sporting for your opponent to give your Knights a cover save after having just turned their phat ride to smoldering rubble

Perhaps it would have, but don't be hard on my opponent. It wasn't even his decision; I was the one who said that no blocked LoS meant no saves, and that we'd have to make craters. Perhaps next time I won't be so generous, but then again, hopefully next time we'll have craters. :P Anyway, the KPs he got there were his only 3 all game, so I can't really complain too much.

 

Question: I'm playing a game against a friend this saturday, and I'm not sure which list I should use. My friend plays Spacies, no drop-pods, and usually a fairly good mix of infantry and armour. I could use this same list, or I could use an infantry list I just made (which can be found here). I ask which list you want me to use because I plan to write and post another battle report, and I want to know which list you guys want to see in action. So please go read the new list and post in that thread which list I should use (or any comments you have about the new list).

 

Thanks!

[Mal]

It'd be interesting to see how this list performs against a more infantry based force, and being space marines (with the exception of SW) the nly heavy armour will be Ironclads and raiders.