Blessing of the Blood God; a few queries

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Taking a look over the codex dedicated to our nemesis, I stumbled across a few interesting loopholes that may give Daemonhunters a slight edge over other armies, at least in the psyker department.

 

First, the rule itself;

 

'...The Daemon has a 2+ invulnerable save against wounds caused by psychic powers or force weapons'

 

pg. 74, Codex: Chaos Daemons

 

The 'force weapon' component is quite annoying, because it means your Grandmaster will fail to banish Khornate Daemons with his force weapon, because it gets a 2+ save against all wounds inflicted. So, you need to shell out for a daemonhammer to fight them.

 

Now, the 'wounds caused' part indicates to me that the following occured;

 

1. You passed your psychic test

2. You targeted the Daemon with the psychic power

3. You caused wounds on it

 

'Scourging' is a psychic power that causes D6 S5 AP5 wounds which ignore invulnerable saves. So, you happily ignore 'Blessing of the Blood God', but it's not really that great because the Daemon Prince, Herald or Bloodthirster still probably has a 3+ armour save. If the Daemon Prince forgets to bring 'Iron Hide' though (they sometimes do for saving points), you can potentially kill him in a single turn. Psycannon is still a more reliable option, but it's an interesting loophole.

 

'Destroy Daemon' is a psychic power, but it does not cause any wounds directly, it merely buffs the psyker to re-roll to hit and wound against 'Daemons'. So, it doesn't specifically target the 'blessed' Khorne Daemon, it's a generic bonus bestowed upon the psyker. So, I would conclude that 'Blessing' would not activate against 'Destroy Daemon'.

 

So, for smiting those Khornate Daemons, here is what you're aiming for;

 

Grandmaster, NFW, daemonhammer, 'Destroy Daemon', Grimoire, Sacred Incense

3 x GKT's, 1 w/incinerator

(363 points)

[Tauren]

The correct answer is to just use the NFW as a power weapon and not test for it as a force weapon and just as a power weapon and just beat the obstinate problem out of existence.

[Melissia]

Yep. You have a choice on wether or not you use the force weapon power.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Correct. Don't let anyone tell you that they get a 2+ save against all your attacks even if you didn't use the force weapon power. Or, worse still, that they get a 2+ save against all Nemesis Force Weapons, because they have the word "Force" in their name (yes this actually happened over in the Liber Malorificum). Don't allow shenanigans like that.

[kharn_the_betrayer]

I normally am not all for rules lawyering but I'm going with everyone on this one. I am writing a short list right now and on pg 18 it has the NFW stats. If used a justicar or a bc it isn't a force weapon, so just make sure your grand master can use it as a pw as well.

[Gentlemanloser]

It looks like, as written, they would get a 2+ save versus any 'wounds' caused by our Force Weapons (puchased through the armoury, or the NFW of Stern or a GM), becuase the only time our Force Wepaons could 'wound' is when they hit (as power weapons...) in CC, as Kill outright doesn't cause any wounds.

 

If the CC wounds inflicted from a normal attack aren't supposed to allow the 2+ Save (and I don't think they should...) then the "or Force Weapon" section of BotBG is redundant as ID (from 5th Ed Force Weapons) is a Psychic Power (But a power that can only be used *after* the Force Weapon has 'wounded').

 

Oh for GW to update thier entire rules set, and not allow out of date versions of rules to cause confusion like this.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I think you guys should carefully read the wording for 'Blessing', it's unfortunately quite simple;

 

'...The Daemon has a 2+ invulnerable save against wounds caused by psychic powers or force weapons'

 

pg. 74, Codex: Chaos Daemons

 

It doesn't specify, it just says 'against wounds'. So, if I wound a Daemon w/ Blessing with a force weapon or a psychic power, he gets a 2+ save against it. Not the 'I fry your mind' wound, ANY wound inflicted. This essentially makes your Grandmaster's standard NFW a waste, as he's better off taking a Daemonhammer (which hits at his I5 anyway and only has the normal 4+ invul to contend with). Mind you though, keep the NFW as his second weapon, because it does still work well against non-Khornate Daemons (and virtually every other multi-wound model in the game).

 

If you look at the flowchart for NFW's, it clearly says that the Grandmaster's NFW is both a power weapon and a force weapon at the same time. Thus, you can't 'turn off' the NFW, unless you wanna attack with normal attacks (which no one ever does). Sorry, there's no way around it. Just bite the bullet, shell out for a Daemonhammer, Grimoire, Incense and 'Destroy Daemon', and go smite that smug Bloodthirster.

 

However, as for psychic powers, they have to actually cause wounds directly to activate 'Blessing'. So, while offensive powers (Scourging, Vortex of Doom, Mind War, Bolt of Tzeentch etc) will get saved on a 2+, buff powers (Doom, Fortune, 'Destroy Daemon', Warptime) don't directly cause wounds and thus won't activate 'Blessing'.

[Tauren]

Sounds like shenanigans to me. Considering that force weapons "remove all remaining wounds" once the test has been completed. On the otherhand the GM is overrated and expensive. Just take the BC and a termi retinue and save yourself the points.

[the jeske]

doesnt the last version of GK codex have the special force weapon that just removes the model from play without wounding ? I must check an eglish version . ;)

[Grand Master Tyrak]

the jeske Posted Today, 04:03 PM

doesnt the last version of GK codex have the special force weapon that just removes the model from play without wounding ?

 

Our force weapon ability "removes all wounds" instead of "causes Instant Death". I guess we shouldn't complain too much about the Blessing of the Blood God granting 2+ saves to everything if we can ignore the Bloodthirster's Eternal Warrior if it fails one of the saves.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Sounds like shenanigans to me. Considering that force weapons "remove all remaining wounds" once the test has been completed. On the otherhand the GM is overrated and expensive. Just take the BC and a termi retinue and save yourself the points.

 

No, there's no way around it unfortunatly. They explicitly state 'any wounds caused by force weapon/psychic power', not just the 'I fry you' wound. It seems like GW is intending to rob the GM of any remaining effectiveness against Khornate Daemons.

 

Our force weapon ability "removes all wounds" instead of "causes Instant Death". I guess we shouldn't complain too much about the Blessing of the Blood God granting 2+ saves to everything if we can ignore the Bloodthirster's Eternal Warrior if it fails one of the saves.

 

Well, at best you have a 20.8% probability of getting past his defences with the GM's NFW, then you have to calculate the probability of passing the psychic test. It's really chancy, IMO. Better off daemonhammering him so he's stunned, and letting the retinue hack to death over the next couple of rounds of combat. However, don't ditch the GM's NFW, because it is still great for frying the other Greater Daemons (except maybe the Lord of Change, probably need Daemonhammer on him) and the Princes.

[Captain Malachi]

It seems like GW is intending to rob the GM of any remaining effectiveness against Khornate Daemons.

I'm finding it hard to believe you just said that. S6 weapons, ranged weapons that ignore their saves, forcing them to strike at I1 when they charge, psychic powers that make you more effective, specifically sanctuary and destroy daemon, none of these are any use at all now? And of course only a couple of units can actually get blessing of the blood god to begin with.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I'm finding it hard to believe you just said that. S6 weapons, ranged weapons that ignore their saves, forcing them to strike at I1 when they charge, psychic powers that make you more effective, specifically sanctuary and destroy daemon, none of these are any use at all now? And of course only a couple of units can actually get blessing of the blood god to begin with.

 

Well, the Herald and Daemon Prince are going to have 3+/5+ defences, while the Bloodthirster is 3+/4+, with a 2+ against any wounds made by the GM with his NFW. Pyscannons are not especially effective, plasma guns and Hellfire Dreadnoughts are better for putting wounds on them.

 

Yeah, it is nice to have them strike at I1 when charging you, but the GM only gets 4 attacks in that situation. Thats what gimps his ability to take down the Greater Daemons, hence the need for Daemonhammer. Against Heralds/Princes you'll wound on a 3+, but it's still unlikely you'll fry them due to the 2+ invul.

 

As for psychic powers, you can't use a psychic power and still be able to use the NFW's 'I fry you' ability. Yes, Ultramarine Epistolaries can use two psychic powers a turn (one of which can be force weapon), but we can't. ;) Hence, another reason to use Daemonhammer; the only save he has against it is a 4+ invul, and you can turn on 'Destroy Daemon' to buff yourself.

 

'Sanctuary' is completely broken, hence why I never take it. Again, you can't combine it with the GM's force weapon ability.

 

Sure, it's only 3 models in the army (and they all need Mark of Khorne), but those three models are all linchpins to the Daemon army list. Your Grandmaster+retinue isnt there to slap his Troop Daemons around (your PAGK squads do that just fine), you take the GM to slap down his beefy Greater Daemons, Heralds (who can shrug off psycannon and Hellfire Dreadnoughts with 5 wounds) and Daemon Princes.

 

So, you've gotta choose between a weapon that wounds on a 4+ (3+ for Prince/Herald) and gets re-buffed by a 2+ save. Or, a weapons which wounds them all on 2+, stuns them so they can't attack and their only defence against it is 4+ (5+ on Herald/Prince).