Ninja Marines? // The Eagle Guard

[Commissar Molotov]

I thought it might be neat to stimulate some activity, so I'm posting something I've meant to do for a while. In a previous thread (Ninja Marines) Master of Sanctity said that it was 'impossible' to create a Chapter based on Ninjas. I'm a firm supporter of the idea that a DIY Chapter can be made from just about any inspiration. The point of this thread is to create an interesting and engaging Chapter drawing on such themes without it being implausible.

 

I don't plan on Marines in black, jumping up buildings and throwing ninja stars, but rather to draw upon ideas inspired by the ninja. Here are my ideas thus far:

 

ORIGINS

• The Eagle Guard are a Chapter that has suffered a great loss, a severe reduction in numbers that has left them almost entirely unable to wage war in the manner proscribed by the Codex Astartes.
  
• This loss was sustained against one of the Ork 'mini-empires', Charadon or similar.
  

 

HOMEWORLD

• Either no homeworld, or a homeworld that has been neglected since? Unsure.
  
• Had considered that squads are sent out to neighbouring systems to search out recruits.
  

 

COMBAT DOCTRINE

• As a result, the Chapter has had to reorganise itself so that it can continue to fight.
  
• New neophytes inducted into the Chapter have been outfitted in power armour salvaged from the dead and carefully refurbished by the Techmarines. Safeguarding the future of the Chapter is vital, and these warriors are typically utilised in a fire-support role.
  
• By contrast, the Veterans of the Chapter are employed as skirmishers, equipped with the lighter armour normally given to neophytes in other Chapters. Outfitted with a range of weaponry, these Veteran Scouts are expected to operate alone for extended periods of time. Scout Sergeants have been given great latitude, and are encouraged to innovate, which has resulted in wildly unorthodox tactics.
  
• Veteran Scouts have been reported to adorn themselves with grisly trophies taken from the Orks they have slain. Ork teeth and bones dangle from necklaces and chains. Crude glyphs marr their armour; some even carry Ork weaponry. These Veterans sow discord and terror, appearing to be little more than vengeful spirits. They construct gruesome shrines from the remains of dead Orks and the wreckage of their vehicles. Reminders to the Orks of the vengeful death waiting to claim them from the shadows.
  
• The Chapter's Librarians channel the power of the warp trhough their bodies, conjuring up images of terrifying phantoms and spirits that twist and write, attacking the enemy with unnatural ferocity.
  

 

ORGANISATION

 

• Depleted.
  

 

BELIEFS

• The Chapter has become myopic in its aggressive campaigns against the Orks.
  

 

 

 

 

-> Any feedback is welcomed! ;)

[Pulse]

I really like the idea of the whole veteran cadre of the chapter being fielded as skirmishers with light armour, it sounds a lot like a certain idea you had a while back. ;)

 

I think the whole grizzled sound of them sounds great, with the ork weapons and and the idea of the shrines to "remind" the Orks who stalks them, love it. How would you have these marines fight? Striking from the shadows like the Raven Guard with a mix of the fury of the Space Wolves?

[Commissar Molotov]

I really like the idea of the whole veteran cadre of the chapter being fielded as skirmishers with light armour, it sounds a lot like a certain idea you had a while back. :blush:

 

Which idea is that...? Or do you mean the idea involving Barret's scouts?

 

I think the whole grizzled sound of them sounds great, with the ork weapons and and the idea of the shrines to "remind" the Orks who stalks them, love it. How would you have these marines fight? Striking from the shadows like the Raven Guard with a mix of the fury of the Space Wolves?

 

I was actually somewhat inspired by the Ork Hunters on Armageddon - those Catachan soldiers that'd subsumed Orkoid beliefs into their own to better fight them. Dan Abnett wrote a fantastic short story that was on the Armageddon-3 site, but I'm not sure if it has survived.

 

 

 

 

(Also, get in touch with me on MSN re: those shoulderpads! ;))

[Sigismund Himself]

Dan Abnett wrote a fantastic short story that was on the Armageddon-3 site, but I'm not sure if it has survived.

Here you go.

 

It'll be interesting to see what you can do with this theme, Mol. Good luck with it.

[Excalibur]

Suggestion on the home world, fleet based. I really don't see a Chapter giving up it Keep, which is the repository of its history and dreadnoughts.

 

Also scout wear Scout armor because they do not have the black carapace that allows them to interface with power armor. So your guys would have to have abandoned the normal training process and accelerate the neophytes' physical development to use power armor. Just a fluff point to take into account.

[Commissar Molotov]

Here you go.

 

I half expected you to do that, Sig. You truly are the master of the wayback machine! :o

 

Suggestion on the home world, fleet based. I really don't see a Chapter giving up it Keep, which is the repository of its history and dreadnoughts.

 

Also scout wear Scout armor because they do not have the black carapace that allows them to interface with power armor. So your guys would have to have abandoned the normal training process and accelerate the neophytes' physical development to use power armor. Just a fluff point to take into account.

 

Good response. As to the first point, I'm not normally an advocate of a Chapter having a homeworld unless it adds something to the Chapter. Too many Chapter creators mis-use homeworlds. In this case, I do think it adds something. I'm undecided yet as to whether they would abandon their homeworld or simply neglect it, but it shows that their obsession against the Orks has become dangerous - that they might be letting greater threats strike the Imperium whilst they vent their rage and anger.

 

As to the second point, whilst the Black Carapace is the last organ to be implanted, the Space Wolves similarly equip their neophytes (the Blood Claws) in power armour. I imagine this Chapter would safeguard its recruits as much as possible - I don't see them accelerating the physical development (as that would potentially compromise the purity of the gene-seed) but they would possibly keep their scouts away from danger as much as possible - as much as the Space Marines can.

[ToyShip]

Something I suggested, when we talked about these guys, was the fact that possibly the chapter was faced with a similar situation as the Crimson Fists did during the Rynn's World Incident. The chapter master is faced with a difficult desicion, glorious last stand, or live to fight another day. He chooses the glorious last stand, but is killed early in the final battle. His First captain, or the highest ranking surviving officer, takes command and sounds the retreat. And that leaves you with where they are now.

 

My two cents anyway,

Toyship

[Commissar Molotov]

That's an idea that I'd forgotten, and it might possibly help to entrench the aversion towards standard Astartes tactics, but I don't know. Thanks for bringing it up again!

[Excalibur]

I would go with abandon over neglect for the home world. Neglect does not seems like a Space marine thing.

 

As to the recruits and black carapace I was thinking about the SWs and that was what I meant when I was talking about physical development. They don't wait to put them in the black carapace. It is a detail that only needs one sentence to explain. Accelerating the development with chemicals is a route though, if they are abandoning their home world in favor of revenge they are not thinking about the long term survival of the Chapter and its geneseed.

[Commissar Molotov]

I would go with abandon over neglect for the home world. Neglect does not seems like a Space marine thing.

 

Care to elaborate?

 

As to the recruits and black carapace I was thinking about the SWs and that was what I meant when I was talking about physical development. They don't wait to put them in the black carapace. It is a detail that only needs one sentence to explain. Accelerating the development with chemicals is a route though, if they are abandoning their home world in favor of revenge they are not thinking about the long term survival of the Chapter and its geneseed.

 

I'm not sure that development needs to be (or can be) accelerated. The 'Rites of Initiation' article seemed to suggest that there were set ages when various organs could be implanted - that the Apothecaries followed this by rote. Whilst some Chapters have allowed errors to seep in, my intention was that this would be a very generic Chapter until their cataclysmic failure.

 

I'm also trying to create psychologically intricate characters. 40k seems perennially consumed by mindless, frothing zealots. A human can be obsessed with revenge and yet coldly meticulous in ensuring that that revenge comes to fruition. That's what I want to achieve with these Marines. A sociopathic focus on terrorising the Orkoid. Psychological warfare punctuated by ferocious combats.

[Excalibur]

As to the home world- This issue will depend on how devoted to their vengeance they are. Are they following war bands around the entire time or going after one on a long campaign and then come back to get some more bolters and then out again. Marines are so ritualistic that leaving there home world behind that has their hall of heroes, library of their history as well as main source of recruits would not happen unless they had given up on the idea of returning to any significant size. The Crimson Fist, Emperor Scythes and Ultras all suffered serious losses and attacks on their home world but they are still around and kicking. The Chapter Keep with it heroes and library with list of rituals and history is the core that sets apart one chapter from another, so abandoning or worse neglecting is no small thing. If they have given up on long term survival taking all the equipment they can, leaving the keep behind and going from battle with one war band after another makes sense. But going out and coming back time and again while not going through the rituals of maintaining their keep, seems out of character.

[Angelfire]

I like this "Ninja" Marine idea a lot, Molotov.

 

Now, I wonder if you plan to make this a playable DIY chapter. It looks like you're leaning towards using the Space Wolves and their Wolf Scouts as a model for your idea, or would the new Codex with the many new supplementary scout units (Bikers, Land Speeder Storm, Telion, etc, maybe even characters like Shrike) be more appropriate?

 

Personally, on the homeworld, I like the idea of abandoned over forgotten. Forgotten seems to be more indicative of the "angry" marine stereotype.

 

I would also stay away from turning your chapter into a Raven Guard. We already have Shrike's Company for that. Black armour? Hit and run/skirmish against Orks? Semi-crazy/somber mentality? Named for a avian species?

[Commissar Molotov]

As to the home world- This issue will depend on how devoted to their vengeance they are. Are they following war bands around the entire time or going after one on a long campaign and then come back to get some more bolters and then out again. Marines are so ritualistic that leaving there home world behind that has their hall of heroes, library of their history as well as main source of recruits would not happen unless they had given up on the idea of returning to any significant size. The Crimson Fist, Emperor Scythes and Ultras all suffered serious losses and attacks on their home world but they are still around and kicking. The Chapter Keep with it heroes and library with list of rituals and history is the core that sets apart one chapter from another, so abandoning or worse neglecting is no small thing. If they have given up on long term survival taking all the equipment they can, leaving the keep behind and going from battle with one war band after another makes sense. But going out and coming back time and again while not going through the rituals of maintaining their keep, seems out of character.

 

Again, good points. Though you're making a few assumptions.

 

Firstly - a Chapter doesn't necessarily have to have a Fortress-Monastery upon its homeworld - though it's entirely possible that they do. A key case in point would be the Relictors, who were stationed on a Ramilles-Class Starfort around their homeworld.

 

Secondly - whilst the Chapter might've left their Fortress-Monastery (though I wasn't advocating a complete abandonment) it would still be inhabited by the Serfs and other support staff required to maintain a Chapter at war. Warriors of Ultramar suggests that the Chapter would have in the order of seven thousand serfs. That's a sizeable population.

 

I think perhaps the key is your phrase - 'given up on long-term survival.' I don't see this Chapter as being fatalistic (to my mind, a DIY cliché) or suicidal. As to neglect, my idea was that their Fortress (and any civilians on their homeworld) would not be heavily defended, because those garrison forces were being used to assault the Orks. As I was planning on having this Chapter pitted against one of the entrenched Orkoid enclaves (such as Charadon or Octavius) they would be spending large amounts of time fighting. To a degree, they're wasting their time. But that's the tragedy of the 40k universe in microcosm. It also, as I said, shows that they're neglecting their larger duty to the Imperium.

 

EDIT:

 

I like this "Ninja" Marine idea a lot, Molotov.

 

Now, I wonder if you plan to make this a playable DIY chapter. It looks like you're leaning towards using the Space Wolves and their Wolf Scouts as a model for your idea, or would the new Codex with the many new supplementary scout units (Bikers, Land Speeder Storm, Telion, etc, maybe even characters like Shrike) be more appropriate?

 

Personally, on the homeworld, I like the idea of abandoned over forgotten. Forgotten seems to be more indicative of the "angry" marine stereotype.

 

I would also stay away from turning your chapter into a Raven Guard. We already have Shrike's Company for that. Black armour? Hit and run/skirmish against Orks? Semi-crazy/somber mentality? Named for a avian species?

 

I don't plan to make it playable, no. For 'Veteran Scouts', the Wolf Scouts are perhaps the best option, though I don't see the bulk of the army being as feral as the Space Wolves. I'd suggest an Apocalypse-esque solution of using the Space Marine Codex and Space Wolf Wolf Scouts. Not elegant, but it would work. (Though my circle would allow me to make DIY rules for these guys - a number of 'Scout Tactical Squads' might be interesting...) Although giving Wolf-Scout-Equivalents equipment like the Land Speeder Storm could be very cool indeed! Preferred Enemy: Orks would also be a neat addition. That said, rules aren't really my forte. Feel free to make some if you'd like!

 

I think you could draw distinctions between this Chapter (the name's certainly not final, but I want something suitably 'generic' - too many sneaky DIY Chapters have coincidentally sneaky names!) and the Raven Guard. They're not in black (as far as I know) but the exploits of Shrike in the most recent Codex certainly have caused me some trouble. This Chapter - the Scouts, certainly - would adopt a similar 'undercover' attitude, though I was partly influenced by the tales of Captain Cortez in the third edition Codex, where his Thunderhawk was shot down and he survived with his men for a long time behind enemy lines.

[flintlocklaser]

But going out and coming back time and again while not going through the rituals of maintaining their keep, seems out of character.

 

I disagree. I think Commissar Molotov (and please step in if I've read this wrong, CM) is specifically writing a chapter that has gone over the edge; he even uses the phrase 'cataclysmic failure' in one post. For a chapter such as this, that has been not just bent but actually broken, the symbolism of coming back and forth to a deteriorating keep on a (presumably) un-managed homeworld is very powerful. Maybe they're so depleted that most of the Generic Tribal Recruiting Feasts aren't getting recruitment marines sent down anymore, since this fragment of a chapter just physically can't recruit full 'classes' anymore. Petitioners from the civilian government are kept waiting for months in increasingly shoddy conditions, only to have their requests for military assistance ignored or outright rejected. Fewer chapter serfs mean big sections of the keep are essentially deserted, perhaps even powered-down (no heat, lights) to husband the energies of their single functioning reactor. The Reclusiam is virtually deserted (did any of the chaplains even survive the catastrophe?) and the Librarium's sole occupant is busy writing the Final History of the Eagle Guard. They aren't acting like 'regular' space marines anymore because in their own minds, they're not regular space marines anymore. The analogy, as far as I can guess anyway, is to the individual who suffers some traumatic loss and goes right round the bend, and then sets themself up as some sort of single-minded avenger. It's a nice change from the typical SM stuff, and yet still psychologically believable (or as believable as anything in 40k is, heh) in my opinion.

[Excalibur]

If they are not fatalistic, why are they out fighting an Ork enclave instead of back in the chapter keep recruiting and rebuilding? Are they incapable of creating new marines, no apothecaries or plague on the main recruit world? This begs the question how many marines are left? Less then half I am assuming but even less then that? I do like you idea, these are just the questions that ... nag at me.

[Commissar Molotov]

I disagree. I think Commissar Molotov (and please step in if I've read this wrong, CM) is specifically writing a chapter that has gone over the edge; he even uses the phrase 'cataclysmic failure' in one post. For a chapter such as this, that has been not just bent but actually broken, the symbolism of coming back and forth to a deteriorating keep on a (presumably) un-managed homeworld is very powerful. Maybe they're so depleted that most of the Generic Tribal Recruiting Feasts aren't getting recruitment marines sent down anymore, since this fragment of a chapter just physically can't recruit full 'classes' anymore. Petitioners from the civilian government are kept waiting for months in increasingly shoddy conditions, only to have their requests for military assistance ignored or outright rejected. Fewer chapter serfs mean big sections of the keep are essentially deserted, perhaps even powered-down (no heat, lights) to husband the energies of their single functioning reactor. The Reclusiam is virtually deserted (did any of the chaplains even survive the catastrophe?) and the Librarium's sole occupant is busy writing the Final History of the Eagle Guard. They aren't acting like 'regular' space marines anymore because in their own minds, they're not regular space marines anymore. The analogy, as far as I can guess anyway, is to the individual who suffers some traumatic loss and goes right round the bend, and then sets themself up as some sort of single-minded avenger. It's a nice change from the typical SM stuff, and yet still psychologically believable (or as believable as anything in 40k is, heh) in my opinion.

 

A very, very good post. Thank you for the feedback. There are some very powerful images here, and I think it's fitting when juxtaposed against the dying twilight of the 41st millennium. It might also be worthwhile comparing them to the Crimson Fists, though both Chapters have ended up in rather different places.

 

My struggle at the moment is quite where to site this Chapter along the 'psychopathic ladder'. To my mind, 40k is riddled with far too many insane madmen and religious zealots. And the DIY scene is full of too many Chapters that've been near-destroyed and that've then gone crazy. I want this Chapter to've been very, very deeply marked by the events that've happened to them. But I want to foster that rigid, serial-killer coldness and fixity of purpose, I think. That's how I see these scouts (who're really the focus of the Chapter and the 'ninja' parallel) operating. Things like the shrines created to scare the Orks, like affixing glyph-plates to their armour and employing complex psychological techniques against the Orks - those are things that I think work. I'm going to go back to the other thread and gather up the notes and ideas I posted there, too.

 

If they are not fatalistic, why are they out fighting an Ork enclave instead of back in the chapter keep recruiting and rebuilding? Are they incapable of creating new marines, no apothecaries or plague on the main recruit world? This begs the question how many marines are left? Less then half I am assuming but even less then that? I do like you idea, these are just the questions that ... nag at me.

 

No, no. I'm glad you're forcing me to defend (and therefore firm up) my ideas. The thing is that I very clearly only have a page of bullet-points. It's not like the 4 years-plus for my Castigators. I can't talk with complete confidence because I don't know all the answers yet. I don't think that any Chapter will completely give up fighting - it is their duty to the Emperor and they know that if they rest too long, the enemies of Humanity will capitalise on it. Elements of the Chapter (the Apothecarion, etc.) would work to recruit, but that's not the focus of the fighting arm of the Chapter - the Battle Companies.

 

The trouble perhaps comes from the target they're fighting against. They might be better served elsewhere, but they're obsessively trying to eradicate the Orks - one of the hardest races in the Galaxy to eradicate.

[ToyShip]

If they are not fatalistic, why are they out fighting an Ork enclave instead of back in the chapter keep recruiting and rebuilding?

 

Revenge (Harmful action against a person or group done for the purpose of responding to a real or perceived wrongdoing).. Its sweet. It also leads to the dark side. Frank Castle, a.k.a. the Punisher watched his family be murdered, so he was driven to destroy those who destroyed his life. These guys are much like Frank Castle. They were beaten severely by the Orks, and so go to whatever lengths it takes to combat them. They go so far as to change thier entire way of warfare, ditching th Codex Astartes, and thousands of years of history to do one thing. Kill orks and redeem their honor. Then, and only then can they return to the way they were.

 

As an aside, I know chapter symbol isnt really that important, but a thought struck me, and since they fight Orks almost exclusively, and they seek to sow fear amongst their ranks, why not use an Ork Skull? Not the Glyph type, but an actual skull. Of course, they would have had a different badge vefore the mauling they received, but they later adopt it.

 

Just some thoughts

[Cpt_Tiberius]

Like I said in our discussion, I don't feel the concept you have captures "ninja" at all. While I do quite like the premise, I think you need a different angle.

 

So! here are my thoughts

 

Option 1 - Historical Ninjas

Use the general premise of the real Ninja Clans as a set up. The Ninja were small groups of spies/assassins who came from secluded mountain villages in the Koga & Iga provinces. They developed their own style of "martial arts" that were influenced by their spiritual beliefs. These beliefs did not follow the doctorine for the state religion and so were seen as heretical & dangerous. If I remember right the Ninja began selling their services in exchange for their homes being left alone.

 

So, You could start with the premise that the Imperium discovered a world full of highly skilled sneaky warriors and that they struck a deal with the inhabitants to leave the planet unmolested in exchange for recruits for a new marine chapter.

 

Option 2 - Movie Ninjas

In the movies and other pop-culture venues, the Ninja are regarded as @ss-kickin' sword-wieldin' supermen (hmm...sounds like marines to me). So in this case you might go for a hidden homeworld ( or maybe they alternate between a few locations) Obfuscation and stealth are the keep phrases. Steal liberally from both the Raven Guard MO as well as the Alpha Legion. It's easier to kill an enemy that doesn't know your even there.

 

Regardless of which direction you chose, I do agree that large numbers of scouts are a key feature, but I don't feel you need some catastrophe to explain them. They prefer the more flexible and lighter Scout armor to the standard Asartes Plate.

 

and this is for Mol...

 

We live together, we train together, we fight together, we stand for good together... we are ninjas. We strike hard, defend and protected and fade into the night and there ain't no bad guy or monster that gonna ever change that. That's what is important and that's why we will always be... brothers. -Raphael :lol:

 

-T.

[Commissar Molotov]

Like I said in our discussion, I don't feel the concept you have captures "ninja" at all. While I do quite like the premise, I think you need a different angle.

 

So! here are my thoughts

 

Option 1 - Historical Ninjas

Use the general premise of the real Ninja Clans as a set up. The Ninja were small groups of spies/assassins who came from secluded mountain villages in the Koga & Iga provinces. They developed their own style of "martial arts" that were influenced by their spiritual beliefs. These beliefs did not follow the doctorine for the state religion and so were seen as heretical & dangerous. If I remember right the Ninja began selling their services in exchange for their homes being left alone.

 

So, You could start with the premise that the Imperium discovered a world full of highly skilled sneaky warriors and that they struck a deal with the inhabitants to leave the planet unmolested in exchange for recruits for a new marine chapter.

 

Option 2 - Movie Ninjas

In the movies and other pop-culture venues, the Ninja are regarded as @ss-kickin' sword-wieldin' supermen (hmm...sounds like marines to me). So in this case you might go for a hidden homeworld ( or maybe they alternate between a few locations) Obfuscation and stealth are the keep phrases. Steal liberally from both the Raven Guard MO as well as the Alpha Legion. It's easier to kill an enemy that doesn't know your even there.

 

Regardless of which direction you chose, I do agree that large numbers of scouts are a key feature, but I don't feel you need some catastrophe to explain them. They prefer the more flexible and lighter Scout armor to the standard Asartes Plate.

 

and this is for Mol...

 

We live together, we train together, we fight together, we stand for good together... we are ninjas. We strike hard, defend and protected and fade into the night and there ain't no bad guy or monster that gonna ever change that. That's what is important and that's why we will always be... brothers. -Raphael ;)

 

-T.

 

Haha, well I did say that you'd get bonus points if you made a Ninja Turtles reference... When creating a DIY Chapter I don't want to be bound by historical reality. It's boring! I'm very consciously taking the stereotypical elements of ninjas (in the main), and that's because those are the striking bits. But you're right. I need to go back closer to the ninja archetype, and to that end I've quoted my post from the other thread in the hopes that other readers will find some interesting stuff and post their ideas.

 

I do like the 'Ork Hunter' angle, though, and I want to incorporate it. I'm not trying to create 'Ninja Marines' but 'Marines influenced by Ninja'. I'm certainly not so bound to the idea that I'm going to stick slavishly to the inspiration. :) Which is a good point. 40k is very much a European/Western/Gothic universe, and I think that DIY creators can sometimes fall on their faces when trying to meld other (especially Oriental) influences to the 40k baseline. To that end, I don't plan on using Japanese names, Japanese writing, Japanese symbols, Japanese weapons... (you guys get the drift, I'm sure. :))

 

 

This topic interested me. On the face of it, it's a terrible, terrible idea, just taking the worst part of the internet PWN! culture and fusing it with genetically-enhanced super-humans in a far future. It's the fanboi wet-dream - and the (self-respecting) DIY Chapter Creator nightmare.

 

But I think it's something that could be interesting if it were done with respect. Ultimately, you need to remember that you're not creating 'Ninja Space Marines', but 'Space Marines with additional themes drawn from the ninjas of Japan'. Every theme you draw from the ninja has to be built upon the extant themes provided by the Space Marines.

 

Now, I'm going to take a series of quotes from Wikipedia. Now, I know Wiki isn't an academic source, per se, but that actually benefits the Chapter Creation process. You're not trying to make a 100% accurate representation of Ninja in 40k, because at the end of the day it's 40k, and the fidelity to your concept has to fall before the Space Marine themes, as I said. Drawing upon cliché and misrepresentation can be useful for the Chapter creator.

 

In the history of Japan, a ninja (忍者, ninja?) was someone specially trained in a variety of unorthodox arts of war. The methods used by ninja included assassination, espionage, and a variety of martial arts.... Their roles may have included sabotage, espionage, scouting and assassination missions as a way to destabilize and cause social chaos in enemy territory or against an opposing ruler...

 

Key terms to pick out here would be 'unorthodox', 'assassination' and 'espionage'. This would immediately suggest a leaning towards scouts, or lightly-armoured troops conducting rapid assaults, with an emphasis on sabotage, rapidly denying the enemy their power, so that when the Chapter does assault, the enemy is powerless to resist.

 

The ninja use of stealth tactics against better-armed enemy samurai does not mean that they were limited to espionage and undercover work: that is simply where their actions most notably differed from the more accepted tactics of samurai. Their weapons and tactics were partially derived from the need to conceal or defend themselves quickly from samurai, which can be seen from the similarities between many of their weapons and various sickles and threshing tools used at the time.

 

The idea of using stealth tactics to prevail against larger and better-equipped forces is an interesting one. It links to the Azure Blades thread run by Espada Azul. You could look at the fact that all Space Marines are outnumbered - but perhaps the Chapter has adopted such stealth-based tactics after sustaining heavy losses. The Crimson Fists are a Chapter that has turned to subterfuge and espionage in order to preserve their numbers in the wake of the Rynn's World campaign. Alternatively, a system similar to the Space Wolves where scouts are actually the Chapter's veterans might be interesting.

 

At this time, the conflicts between the clans of daimyo that controlled small regions of land had established guerrilla warfare and assassination as a valuable alternative to frontal assault.[citation needed] Since Bushido, the Samurai Code, forbade such tactics as dishonorable,[citation needed] a daimyo could not expect his own troops to perform the tasks required; thus, he had to buy or broker the assistance of ninja to perform selective strikes, espionage, assassination, and infiltration of enemy strongholds.

 

This perhaps suggests the idea that some within the Imperium might have a distaste for the tactics, seeing them as dishonourable. Or perhaps even some within the Chapter itself see the tactics they've had to adopt as distasteful, but they battle on in the name of the Emperor - a dishonourable victory is still a victory that preserves millions of lives.

 

In their history, ninja groups were small and structured around families and villages, later developing a more martial hierarchy that was able to mesh more closely with that of samurai and the daimyo. These certain ninjutsu trained groups were set in these villages for protection against raiders and robbers.

 

This interests me, in that it perhaps suggests a deployment similar to the Alpha Legion, with many hidden bases all around the Imperium, from which the Chapter can operate. Unlike the Chapter keeps of the Black Templar, say, perhaps these caches are secret.

 

Ninja also employed a variety of weapons and tricks using gunpowder. Smoke bombs and firecrackers were widely used to aid an escape or create a diversion for an attack. They used timed fuses to delay explosions. Ōzutsu (cannons) they constructed could be used to launch fiery sparks as well as projectiles at a target. Small "bombs" called metsubushi (目潰し, "eye closers") were filled with sand and sometimes metal dust. This sand would be carried in bamboo segments or in hollowed eggs and thrown at someone, the shell would crack, and the assailant would be blinded. Even land mines were constructed that used a mechanical fuse or a lit, oil-soaked string. Secrets of making desirable mixes of gunpowder were strictly guarded in many ninja clans.

 

The use of tricks or traps to divert and distract the attention of the enemy is an interesting aspect, and something that could be subtly altered to suit the Space Marines. The Night Lords' use of psychological tactics to distract and wear down the enemy is an interesting concept to draw from.

 

So 'ninja marines' doesn't need to be a lame idea, if the inspiration is utilised in the right way. :)

[Kihriban]

I like the idea. I'm a little confused on the point of the exercise - are you creating a ninja based chapter to eventually create and play? or are you creating it because you love warhammer, we all love warhammer, and we're interested to see where it might go?

 

Another possible idea is to have something similar to the crimson fists, except where the chapter master was killed too. Now the first company, instead of being the proper veterans they're supposed to be, is obsessed with cleaning this stain on their honour. They disappear for months at a time, sometimes all alone, sometimes in groups of up to 5, and they only return to the monastery to resupply. They spend the rest of their time stalking the orks and sowing discord. What's rest of the rest of the chapter, maybe a company or two, runs things normally and is trying to rebuild. The other captains just not having enough control over the 1st company to pull the rogue elements back together.

 

At one point you mentioned them practicing psychological warfare. I'm pretty sure the orks are pretty hard to psychologically bully. I think it would really flesh out the chapter if you came up with a few instances were it managed to work and the orks ran peeing their pants the whole way.

 

In terms of Ninja Marines, I just did something similar in my DIY chapter a couple of days ago. (shameless plug) Since my chapter is frequently up against the Imperium in the vigilanty sense of trying to enforce justice, they have a special company whose sole purpose is to fight Imperial elements - particularly when the attack is meant only to wound and not eradicate, and there might be witnesses. The company is all in black with no Chapter heraldry and they frequently have a skull in white painted over their faceplate. They are the Nightmares, and they strike pretty much like ninjas.

[Kihriban]

Dan Abnett wrote a fantastic short story that was on the Armageddon-3 site, but I'm not sure if it has survived.

Here you go.

 

It'll be interesting to see what you can do with this theme, Mol. Good luck with it.

 

That is a sick story.

[Pulse]

Ah yes the story by Dan Abnett, tis a good story but the story is far too inconsistant, what with the idea of being stealthy yet they laugh loudly, really tactical that eh?

 

I see from the story Mol that you are adapting the Warning Shrines? Tis a good idea i think, but you'll have to add a unique touch to make it yours.

[flintlocklaser]

A very, very good post. Thank you for the feedback. There are some very powerful images here, and I think it's fitting when juxtaposed against the dying twilight of the 41st millennium. It might also be worthwhile comparing them to the Crimson Fists, though both Chapters have ended up in rather different places.

Hope it was some help. I'd thought about a lot of similar imagery for my Steel Ghosts DIY, although with a more wistful (eek, hard to imagine a marine being 'wistful'), hopeful, and possibly forward-looking flavor. Like your Eagle Guard, they're woefully understrength at the moment, and don't ever seem to make much progress towards finally becoming a nominally-sized chapter, so I had a lot of the ideas about the half-deserted keep and the poor tribesmen from their original homeworld, still sending their finest young warriors out to look for the recruiting Marines who will never come again. I did go with more of the Crimson Fist concept though, and I'm glad to see your chapter explore the other axis of that decision. It's a good concept, and a good read.

 

My struggle at the moment is quite where to site this Chapter along the 'psychopathic ladder'. To my mind, 40k is riddled with far too many insane madmen and religious zealots. And the DIY scene is full of too many Chapters that've been near-destroyed and that've then gone crazy. I want this Chapter to've been very, very deeply marked by the events that've happened to them. But I want to foster that rigid, serial-killer coldness and fixity of purpose, I think. That's how I see these scouts (who're really the focus of the Chapter and the 'ninja' parallel) operating. Things like the shrines created to scare the Orks, like affixing glyph-plates to their armour and employing complex psychological techniques against the Orks - those are things that I think work. I'm going to go back to the other thread and gather up the notes and ideas I posted there, too.

 

I like your serial-killer mention here, as well as ToyShip's Frank Castle/Punisher reference. Like you said, frothing religious/warrior-cult zealotry is a dime-a-dozen in 40k history, both official and our works here at the Liber. Keep your guys on that cold, obsessive path. And as for the idea of not being able to psyche out orks, like you I disagree. Orks love combat - they're literally bred (or engineered by the Old Ones) for it. They laugh off combat losses, coz it's all a good scrap, wot? But what would discomfit an ork - possibly even scare an ork? Dying quietly, with no chance to fight, with no spectacle, no nothing. Serial killers don't have big ol' happy-scrappy brawls with their victims, and ideally your Eagle Guard would be working in as much the same vein as possible. Dying in a war might be just fine for Gork (or Mork), but how do you think Mork (or Gork) would feel about an ork who just got his throat quietly cut in the night?

 

Keep it up! This is a good one.

[Commissar Molotov]

I like the idea. I'm a little confused on the point of the exercise - are you creating a ninja based chapter to eventually create and play? or are you creating it because you love warhammer, we all love warhammer, and we're interested to see where it might go?

 

Another possible idea is to have something similar to the crimson fists, except where the chapter master was killed too. Now the first company, instead of being the proper veterans they're supposed to be, is obsessed with cleaning this stain on their honour. They disappear for months at a time, sometimes all alone, sometimes in groups of up to 5, and they only return to the monastery to resupply. They spend the rest of their time stalking the orks and sowing discord. What's rest of the rest of the chapter, maybe a company or two, runs things normally and is trying to rebuild. The other captains just not having enough control over the 1st company to pull the rogue elements back together.

 

At one point you mentioned them practicing psychological warfare. I'm pretty sure the orks are pretty hard to psychologically bully. I think it would really flesh out the chapter if you came up with a few instances were it managed to work and the orks ran peeing their pants the whole way.

 

In terms of Ninja Marines, I just did something similar in my DIY chapter a couple of days ago. (shameless plug) Since my chapter is frequently up against the Imperium in the vigilanty sense of trying to enforce justice, they have a special company whose sole purpose is to fight Imperial elements - particularly when the attack is meant only to wound and not eradicate, and there might be witnesses. The company is all in black with no Chapter heraldry and they frequently have a skull in white painted over their faceplate. They are the Nightmares, and they strike pretty much like ninjas.

 

Ah, well you don't know me so you can't be blamed for being confused. :) Aside from the Castigators, 'my' Chapter and certainly the one that'll certainly see the tabletop however long it takes me, I have a bunch of other DIYs that I've created. The Redemptors, The White Stars, The Dark Claws, The Harvesters, The Contemptors and the Heralds of Righteousness being the ones I can find right now. :) I don't generally give that much thought to tabletop mechanics - rather I'm interested in the craft of DIY, and try to focus and hone my efforts to create different, distinct and interesting Chapters for people to read. This Chapter is partly to prove that you can make a Chapter inspired by ninja. I remember in a previous topic I spent a long time explaining how you could make a Chapter based around The Fresh Prince of Bel Air - and whilst you can't make a Chapter about anything, it's definitely possible to take the most diverse and incongruous sources and meld them into a characterful Chapter.

 

I'm not sure I agree totally with your idea of the First Company being 'out of control'. Partly that's because, as I've intimated elsewhere in this thread, that 40k has too many 'crazed zealots on a mission'. The First Company fights in its own, distinctive way, and they certainly are held in a mixture of awe, fear and disgust by the rest of the Chapter, but I think it's perhaps a desire to vindicate the name of the Chapter than to vindicate their dead Master.

 

Psychological warfare certainly can work against Orks. The story by Dan Abnett shows that. Their treatment of Commissar Yarrick as a mighty hero shows that they do have a conception of psychology. I think Flintlocklaser writes it far better than I can, but Orks can be disquieted, upset, especially when something they can't actually fight is killing them.

 

I like your serial-killer mention here, as well as ToyShip's Frank Castle/Punisher reference. Like you said, frothing religious/warrior-cult zealotry is a dime-a-dozen in 40k history, both official and our works here at the Liber. Keep your guys on that cold, obsessive path. And as for the idea of not being able to psyche out orks, like you I disagree. Orks love combat - they're literally bred (or engineered by the Old Ones) for it. They laugh off combat losses, coz it's all a good scrap, wot? But what would discomfit an ork - possibly even scare an ork? Dying quietly, with no chance to fight, with no spectacle, no nothing. Serial killers don't have big ol' happy-scrappy brawls with their victims, and ideally your Eagle Guard would be working in as much the same vein as possible. Dying in a war might be just fine for Gork (or Mork), but how do you think Mork (or Gork) would feel about an ork who just got his throat quietly cut in the night?

 

Keep it up! This is a good one.

 

It might be because I recently re-watched Dexter, but I think that cool, surgical preparation is perhaps the best analogy for what I'm trying to achieve. Thanks for another thought-provoking response.

[flintlocklaser]

It might be because I recently re-watched Dexter, but I think that cool, surgical preparation is perhaps the best analogy for what I'm trying to achieve. Thanks for another thought-provoking response.

 

That's classic - I actually didn't mention Dexter because I didn't know if you'd have seen the show or not, being in England. Glad to hear that Dex has crossed the pond! And I'm glad to comment on such a great IA. Hope I'm not overdoing it!