Assault Cannons or Cyclone Missile Launchers?

[bravo-52]

I've used the search function and read through numerous topics for several hours and have yet to find a topic on Termie special weapons. If there is another thread already started please point me in the right direction; since obviously my search-fu powers are not working. I'm putting together my 3rd Space Marine army (Geesh I need to get off this GW crack habit :o ) this time its a Red Scorpions company and I have finally amassed all the shoulder pads I'll need. I have a 2x5 man Terminator squads but I've yet to decide what to arm them with. Should I give them assault cannons or Cyclone missile launchers? I know what your going to say "It all depends on what role your termies are going to play in your army" but I just want to arm them for an all takers type of army. (I just love termies and I will have two squads in my army) Here is my army list so you guys have a big picture idea of what's in it.

 

• Cato Sicarius counts as
  
• Librarian
  
• 5 Man Termie Squad ( 1x chainfist with AC or CML)
  
• 5 Man Termie Squad ( 1x chainfist with AC or CML)
  
• 10 Man Tactical Squad A (Power Fist, Missile Launcher, Flamer)
  
• Rhino
  
• 10 Man Tactical Squad B (Power Fist, Missile Launcher, Flamer)
  
• Rhino
  
• Dreadnought (TL Lascannon, Missile Launcher)
  
• Vindicator (siege shield)
  

 

Comes up to 1500 pts exactly.

I'd like your guys advice and personal experiences with each of these weapons.

 

Thanks in advance for your help.

[Octavulg]

I find Cyclone Missile Launchers quite useful. Seeing as you have one S9 weapon, methinks you'd be well served to have as many other long range weapons as you can. Thus, stick with CMLs.

 

They're higher strength and longer ranged than the AC, and have the option to do templates if you really want. Plus, they have cachet.

[Sigismund's Ghost]

I also prefer the cyclones. Since the rending nerf I think the assault cannons have lost the edge now that the missile launchers have 2 attacks.

[Cale]

Assault Cannons. they're still better against the majority of target types (most vehicles and many types of infantry. It really only loses out in terms of range.

[IvorTangrean]

Assault cannons, that way everything has a range of 24" and will be firing at a similar target while you still have the option of rending a vehicle

[Support By Fire]

i am really liking the CML's especially since it is Heavy2 now instead of 1 shot, better template rules (against hordes), and you can shoot the Storm Bolter in the same turn as well. Nerfing the Assault Cannon has prompted me to switch to CML's, although i probably would have switched anyways with the CML's upgrades in 5th

[Octavulg]

Indecision over what's better! Let's solve it with the addition of Mathhammer! (Huzzah. And such.)

 

On a shot for shot basis, vs. AV14

Each hits 2/3

CML glances 1/6 of every hit. With two shots, it has a (2/3)(1/6)(2) = 2/9 (6/27) chance of glancing each time you fire.

AC glances (1/6)(1/3) = 1/18 of every hit. With four shots, it has a (2/3)(1/18)(4) = 4/27 chance of glancing each time you fire - slightly inferior to the CML.

 

Of course:

CML never penetrates

AC penetrates (1/6)(1/3) = 1/18 of every hit, which means it has a...(1/18)(1/3) = 1/54 chance of a kill per hit. With four shots, that's a (2/3)(1/54)(4) = 4/81 chance of killing every time you fire - 4.93%.

A Lascannon has a (2/3)(1/6)(1/3) = 1/27 chance of a kill each time it's fired - 3.70%.

The TL Lascannon has the same as the LC plus (1/3)(2/3)(1/6)(1/3) = 2/162, which then totals 8/162, which is 4.94%.

 

As you can see, for Land Raider hunting, the TLLC is only marginally superior.

 

AV13

Their glance chances are the same as last time.

AC penetrates (1/6)(2/3) = 1/9 of every hit, which means that it has a 1/27 chance of a kill per hit. With four shots, it's a (2/3)(1/27)(4) = 8/81 chance of killing every time you fire. 9.88%

CML penetrates 1/6 of every hit, which means it has a 1/18 chance of a kill per hit. With two shots, that's a (2/3)(1/18)(2) = 4/54. 7.41%

LC is (2/3)(1/3)(1/3) = 2/27. 7.40%

TLLC is LC + (1/3)(2/3)(1/3)(1/3) = 6/81 + 2/81 = 8/81. 9.87%

 

The AC is still superior to the dedicated AT weapons, albeit only microscopically so. Gah.

 

AV12

AC can never glance. Ever. How ironic.

AC penetrates and kills (2/3)(1/6)(1/3)(4) = 4/27. 14.81% of the time.

CML penetrates and kills (2/3)(1/3)(1/3)(2) = 4/27. 14.81% of the time.

 

After this, they're logically the same all the way down. I may be wrong, but I'm not checking. ^_^

 

The end result of this is that the AC is better for hunting armor 14, slightly better for hunting armor 13 (I feel the superior range helps balance this out), and equivalent for everything else. A bit better at hunting (some) infantry, but shorter ranged, not able to instant kill MEQs, and (as I said last time), without the same cachet.

 

If it's a deep-striking, charge 'em down, hell-for-leather squad - Assault Cannon. Otherwise, I'd use the Cyclone Launcher. Somewhat less capable, but with better range and some definite benefits.

 

EDIT: Lascannon results amended. Thanks to River Black for the correction.

[bravo-52]

Octavulg, you make some very insightful (and mathematically proven) points! I really appreciate it. Keep the suggestions coming boys.

[Support By Fire]

Very nice points Octavulg, but i use my termies differently, mostly against MEQ's and softer targets (transports and dreds and such), and then use better more efficient tank killers for heavies. Great math hammer by the way.

[Octavulg]

Thanks. I admit Terminators aren't the most efficient tank-killers in the world, but I like the security of knowing that, if I don't want to/can't deep strike effectively and safely, I can just start dropping krak missiles on things.

 

Plus, they're really handy to have against mechanized assault armies. :P

 

Range is hard to find in a Space Marine army, so I like to take it where I can.

[Reinholt]

It depends.

 

The big advantage of the assault cannon is a higher chance to do something spectacular, while the big disadvantage is range. In short, they are pretty much equivalent weapons.

 

My view is ultimately this:

 

If you plan on deep striking the terminators, take the assault cannon. You are likely to be close to whatever you are after, and quite likely to be able to shell it pretty severely with an AC.

 

If you don't plan on deep striking them, take the cyclones, as you will be firing earlier and more often; as you can see from the math-hammer above, the difference is not so great that if one weapon is going to fire twice as many times as the other due to range issues, it would still be superior to take the one firing less (which was the case in the previous edition).

 

So ACs for my deep strikers, CMLs for my footsloggers.

[greatcrusade08]

Although Octavulg makes an excellent point, with proven mathammer. I dont think he answered the question from the OP.

 

He wanted to know what was the all round weapon he could use vs all comers.

I would never advocate shooting termies at vehicles, they are too valuable to waste 4/5 of the squad standing about whillst the one heavy weapon has a pop.

Against most armies i would say the assault cannon has the edge, sure the ML can devestate low toughness troops but it can scatter, the assault cannon however can take multiple wounds from an MC, especially if your rolling lucky.

Which would you rather have 4S6 rending shots or 1S8 shot/1S4 template hits.

 

Personally i use neither, i stick to a five man squad with heavy flamer, that way i beam in close and do the damage, and can use it again on the turn i charge, that is usually the reason to take termies after all!

 

GC08

[Reinholt]

I believe the comparison is 4 S6 rending shots vs. 2 S8 single shots or S4 templates now, yes?

[greatcrusade08]

I believe the comparison is 4 S6 rending shots vs. 2 S8 single shots or S4 templates now, yes?

 

Ooops i meant S8 not S9 will edit this, does CML get two shots???

 

GC08

[Octavulg]

First, GC, the CML now has two shots. It's also S8.

 

So the question is: 4 S6 rending shots at 24" or 2 S8 shots at 48".

 

Personally, I like the extra range. Thus, I take a CML first. Note that I'd cheerfully add an assault cannon next - I just have a lot of CMLs around.

[greatcrusade08]

hmmm 2 templates from one guy.

 

Must admit my interest is now peaked, this would be agreat weapon against hordes when you dont deepstrike your termies.

Long range squishy death.

Still for deepstrikers go with the flamers

 

GC08

[Warp Angel]

Mix n Match!

Combat Squad!

 

Erm... if your army is meant to do stuff like that.

 

If you've got a role for your Termies in mind, pick the appropriate weapon and double down.

[Octavulg]

For DS, go with the AC. Not all enemies bunch up for your firepower. Inconsiderate jerks. ^_^

[Marlow]

So the question is: 4 S6 rending shots at 24" or 2 S8 shots at 48".

Well it is actually 4 S6 rending shots at 24" or 2 S8 shots at 48" & 2 S4 shots at 24" since you get a Storm Bolter and CML.

[Octavulg]

True...

 

Let's Mathhammer vs. MEQs! It'll keep us off the streets.

 

The wondrous assault cannon vs. MEQ, per shot:

(2/3)(2/3 [should be 5/6, but rending is 1/6, and that's added in later])(1/3)+(2/3)(1/6[this is the rending]) = (4/27)+(3/27) = 7/27, per shot.

Four shots means you have a 28/27 chance of killing a marine. Sweet.

 

The CML

(2/3)(5/6) = 10/18, which is 15/27. With two shots, that's a 30/27 chance of killing a marine.

 

Thus, vs. MEQs, the CML clearly turns out ahead. Don't even worry about what adding the storm bolter does.

 

Vs. lighter infantry, of course, the AC edges into the lead.

 

Against heavier infantry (AKA Terminators):

The AC

(2/3)(2/3 [should be 5/6, but rending is 1/6, and that's added in later])(1/6)+(2/3)(1/6[this is the rending]) = (2/27)+(3/27) = 5/27, per shot. With four shots, 20/27 chance of a kill.

 

The CML (and SB)

(2/3)(5/6)(1/6)+(2/3)(1/2)(1/6) = (5/54)+(3/54) = 8/54, doubled because of the two shots, so 16/54. That's 8/27.

 

So...the CML is greatly superior against marines (and anything else with a 3+ save), but the AC is superior against lighter and heavier armored enemies. Though the CML should retain a major edge against Monstrous Creatures.

[Cale]

Though the CML should retain a major edge against Monstrous Creatures.

 

Not against the ones with 2+ saves...which is most of them. There, Rending still wins out easily.

[River Black]

LC is (2/3)(2/3)(1/3) = 4/27. 14.81%

TLLC is LC + (1/3)(2/3)(2/3)(1/3) = 12/81 + 4/81 = 16/81. 19.75%

 

The Lascannons pick up a hefty lead here.

 

Correct me if im wrong but shouldnt it be (2/3 chance to hit) x (1/3 to pen) x (1/3 damage table) x 1 shot = 2/27 or 7.40% chance to destroy. If your penetrating 2/3 of the time that means your going to pen armor 13 with a 3+ which can't happen. This means that the TLLC should be (2/27) + (1/3)(2/3)(1/3)(1/3) = (6/81) + (2/81) = 8/81 = 9.87%. This means that an Assault cannon is just as effective at destroying armor 13 as a TLLC.

[Octavulg]

Yup.

[bravo-52]

Thanks for all your help guys! Especially to Octavulg for the great Mathhammer. Having taken everything into consideration I'll be taking the 2 assault cannons for a well rounded take-on anybody army. Thanks again guys.

<_<

[Kapitan Montag]

Nice mathhammering guys! I always thought the cyclone was way better since its got upped to two shots. And you get to keep the stormbolter.

Still, for me the deciding factor was how cumbersome the cyclone looks. My terminators have got assault cannons cos they look the coolest.