Non-troop slots

[kharn_the_betrayer]

While looking at lists I was wondering how viable PAGK and Sisters are in non-troop slots. If so or not why? I can see taking them for non-objective purposes just to have different weapon loadouts.

[JamesI]

PAGK I don't see much purpose as non-troops. Using them as fast attack for the deep strike doesn't make much sense now, I'd rather have the scoring unit.

[Mal]

espically since they cannot assault the turn they arrive, they are destined to get shot to death, or at least to the point where they are not much of a threat, and when you consider the cost of a PAGK unit.. they are not made for throw aways.

[iamnothere]

The weapon options don't change for PAGK, except in Purgation squads where you pay even more.

 

You don't pay any extra for the FAGK but you lose the ability to win because they are non scoring.

[Aeddon]

The weapon options don't change for PAGK, except in Purgation squads where you pay even more.

 

You don't pay any extra for the FAGK but you lose the ability to win because they are non scoring.

I would disagree with your last point, the ability to win is determined by one's ability as a leader. What the FAGK's give you is a different tactical option with which to use. It all comes back to personal preference, what works best for you.

[Apogee]

As a sisters player, I often use Sisters as non-troops. As Celestians, you get access to a heavy weapon in a small (faithful!) squad that is resonably good in CC. You also get to take an immolator - nice bonus. A nice trick is to make 2 Celestian squads, each 6 large with a Multi Melta or HB. Then take a Retributor squad of 6 with HBs or Multi Meltas (I take 2, but it's up to you). One sister is a veteran, with the book. Keep them nearby and you have a great, somewhat cheap firebase that can handle assault, and is Stubborn from the book. You also get 3(!) immolators to push up with, and that will keep the fire off of everything else in your army - who can ignore 3 Twin Linked Heavy Flamers That Re-Roll To Wound and Don't Need to Stop To Fire ;).

 

This works very well in a mechanized army, with some vanilla sisters Rhino-ing their way forward with flamers/meltas. It provides and excellent fire base that you can drop off mid-way to the enemy in some cover, and a great follow-up punch.

 

Dominions, on the other hand, I don't use much. The special weapons are just too expensive. Again, they can be used like Celestians - load them up with Storm Bolters and fire away, and use the Immolator transport to rush. Putting a bunch of high-cost close-range weapons on a flame-tank is just asking for trouble...

[iamnothere]

My "lose the ability to win" was a bit of a broad statement so I'll narrow it down.

 

In 1500pts for an almost identical unit that scores rather than a unit that Deep strikes, you've allocated a lot of points. In 4th ed this wasn't a problem and I often used 2 six GK squads with incinerators to flush units out of cover etc.

 

That same unit in 5th isn't all that viable with my play style in less than 2000pts. Ergo it hinders my ability to win.

[Aidoneus]

In my mostly-infantry lists I'd often play with 1 or 2 squads of 6 FAGK with 2 psycannons. I haven't used them in a while, but that's more because I've been playing Raider-based lists than it is due to the advent of 5th edition.

 

What the FAGK give you is the ability to deal with threats that arise during the game. Coming in after a turn or two is a good thing, because you can see what enemy units your other forces can deal with, and which they need help with. The FAGK can them come down right where they're needed. Alternatively, you might have a plan set out in advance (I used to love flanking with them, and rolling up his lines).

 

Another thing they provided me was anti-tank. Yes, psycannons=death for infantry, but they're also S6, and against side/rear armour, that does some serious damage. Particularly, 6 shots of S6 so some serious damage. Deep-striking lets you target that side and rear armour surprisingly easily. My FAGK squads hardly ever played a game where they didn't kill at least one enemy vehicle, and often downed two or even three! In an army that's notoriously bad at anti-tank, that is an invaluable tool to have.

 

Lastly, and this is more general, we need to not focus on scoring units to the exclusion of all else. First off, in 1/3 of all games, it simply doesn't matter. For those 2/3 of games with objectives, the goal is NOT to claim as many objectives as possible; the goal is to claim MORE than your opponent. This means contesting objectives is often just as good as claiming them, and any unit can contest just as well as a scoring unit. It also means that if you kill off your enemy's scoring units, you only need to claim 1 objective for a win.

 

So please don't ignore tactically useful options available to you simply because they lack scoring status. They key to winning is to understand the scenario and to play to it as best you can with the tool available to you. The more tools you have, and the more variety among them, the better your ability to play to the scenario and secure a win.

[Tauren]

Additionally units of core knights with 2 psycannons are powerful mini purg units that can control home territory and put firepower downrange while on the move. They are one of thee best troop core choices with such a capability. Nothing is also stopping you from taking IST's or sisters, both of which are powerful choices when mounted.

 

I think people are being far to closed-minded as to what our troop choices can do and what FAGK should be doing. If you are gonna deepstrike, you deepstrike 2-3 units in at a time. thus if one gets shot up the others make it home for a crushing victory. Additionally nothing is stopping you from planting them on the flank of his units behind cover depending on the board.

[benmothershaw]

Additionally units of core knights with 2 psycannons are powerful mini purg units that can control home territory and put firepower downrange while on the move. They are one of thee best troop core choices with such a capability. Nothing is also stopping you from taking IST's or sisters, both of which are powerful choices when mounted.

 

I think people are being far to closed-minded as to what our troop choices can do and what FAGK should be doing. If you are gonna deepstrike, you deepstrike 2-3 units in at a time. thus if one gets shot up the others make it home for a crushing victory. Additionally nothing is stopping you from planting them on the flank of his units behind cover depending on the board.

 

Well actually your putting yourself at risk of losing a objective. PAGK with Pyscannons don't pack enough wounds, a simple Stormtrooper are more suited to their role considering their pts/weapon loadouts.

[Tauren]

Really? I didn't know that 8 grey knights with 2 psycannons in cover controling an objective and firing down-range doesn't pack enough wounds...

[Tauren]

How does an 8 knight squad with 2 psycannon's not pack enough ablative wounds? Counting the armor save, cover save, and shrouding this unit should do just fine at range.

[number6]

Speaking just for myself, I feel that GKs are exactly as effective as Troops as they are as Fast Attack choices. So why would I ever take FAGKs when PAGKs are just as good, but can also claim objectives as opposed to merely contest them?

 

Points are tight enough as it is. It is never a bad idea to have more Troops in any army ... but especially when they are virtually indistiguishable from their FA brethren.

 

When I feel like I need Deep Strike capability, that's when I call in the Terminators. They can survive a round of shooting after the drop. They can carry a pair of psycannons for crashing through armour just as well as an FAGK unit. And a unit of 4 GKTs with a pair of psycannons is only 29 pts more expensive than Aidoneus's example of 6-man, dual psycannon FAGK units.

 

I just don't feel like FAGKs offer enough of a tactical benefit -- especially when it's clear that I can earn the same benefits using similarly-priced units from other force org slots -- to feel they're worth any consideration. Using GKT units instead -- and you can always build a smallish GKT unit in line with the expense of a FAGK unit that you might otherwise be considering -- just makes more sense. It can contest just as well, but it's a bit more survivable after a deep strike drop and facing enemy firepower...

 

And, just as importantly: I get an excuse to field different models! Putting more of those beautiful GKT models on the table is always something to aim for.

[Melissia]

As far as Sororitas go? Seraphim are quite popular, and Retributors add four heavy bolters for relatively cheap. Celestians are limited in use in comparison to Battle Sisters, but in small squads they can be quite useful for bringing a faith point and a pair of flamers, or an immolator without taking up an HS choice.

[Tauren]

And honestly for tank hunting a unit of seraphim, a unit of mounted sisters and a unit of mounted IST's will find their mark for cheaper than a FAGK. On the seraphim they are also capable of decimating other units with hand-flamers while tank-hunting at the same time.

 

If you are going to deep-strike knights you are better off taking a large 8 man unit with incinerators over psycannons anyways as they are supposed to get there, flame the hell outa the enemy then tear them to pieces. Not only that you can just as easily tear into a vehicle in melee with more attacks from the NFW for the same hitting power in melee... why deal with the expense of psycannons.

[Melissia]

Also note that Seraphim all have frag and krak nades standard, so they can threaten AV10-12 (glancing 12, penetrating 10-11) without any special weapons. Add in an eviscerator on the superior and they can severely threaten any vehicle other than a monolith (which they can only glance).

[Tauren]

Hey melissa what is the suggested load-out for a all-purpose/tank hunting seraphim unit? 8 sisters (1 being a VSS with evis) and 2 sets of hand-flamers? What about other equipment?

[Melissia]

The ideal build depends on the points of the game and how you plan on using it really. Squad size is dependant on how many points you're willing to sacrifice for them. What your budget is, so to speak. Also, they get both krak and frag grenades for free, but the squad CAN buy melta bombs for 4 points per squad member.

 

 

So... depends on what you want. You can get a cheap squad for say 130 points, which is really just a base seraphim squad (4 seraphim, 1 non-veteran superior) equipped with melta bombs. The 7 member squad you described would cost 225 points. One can spend up to 325 points in dedicated tank hunting ability (ten members with melta bombs, two TL Inferno Pistols, Eviscerator), although I wouldn't buy inferno pistols due to their ludicrous cost for their pitiful range.

[Inquisitor Fox]

I've had decent luck with my generic Seraphim squad thusfar: VSS w/ plasma pistol, power sword, book, 6 seraphim, twin-hand flamers, twin-inferno pistols, melta-bombs.

 

It's similar to my regular Battle Sister build, only I upped the bolt pistol to a plasma pistol and need 3 more sisters.

 

I've actually been contemplating breaking the squad up into 2 5 sister squads: one with bolt pistol/power sword, 2 hand flamers, then the other with plasma pistol/power sword, 2 inferno pistols, meltabombs. This would give me a little bit more versatility at the expense of squad sizes.

 

Just thoughts to chew on.

[Melissia]

Personally, I'm always hesitant to use inferno pistols. They are R6", and so you have to be 3" away from the target to use them. I'd sooner give a squad meltabombs, because they might as well assault if they're going to be that close-- at least if they assault they can hit and run to get away if it doesn't work!

[Inquisitor Fox]

I agree.. I almost always give my Seraphim melta-bombs. The good point of pistols though, is the inferno pistol works as well in an anti-heavy infantry role (terminators, tyranid big bugs, etc). So pairing the inferno pistols with a plasma pistol VSS gives me 3 shots at BS4 of AP 1 or 2. That can chew through a small terminator squad right quick, as an example.

 

Edit: Especially since my VSS is the old plasma pistol/power weapon one. Against such a heavy armored small model count squad, her extra melee attacks (4 on the charge) with a power weapon help out immensely.

 

Edit2: It should be noted that the inferno pistol shots are twin linked, so you have a very high probability of both of those sisters hitting (rerolled BS4's are around an 88% hit rate). So that's almost 2 guarenteed S8 AP1 shots pasting TEQ, plus a 2/3 chance of a S7 AP2 shot also hitting. That's a lot of damage before getting into combat.

 

I wouldn't use them as my sole anti-tank, but as a weapon on highly mobile jump troops (whose shooting is only up to 12" anyway, so you're not losing that much range going to 6" with a jumppack) I've had a lot of good experience shooting other targets with them. Ultimately it's up to the general in question. I'd try asking the other player if they mind you subbing some hand flamer models for the inferno pistols though before you try them out for yourself. The conversion, while not technically difficult, is a pain in the butt ^_^

[Melissia]

True enough... I guess i'm just a stingy general. Each TL inferno pistol is 15 points each... two of them will cost as much as seven melta bombs. I tend to be rather tight in my rationing of points, a lot tighter than some people to be sure (it is why I suppose I hate Repentia so much in-game, even though I love their models and their fluff).

[Inquisitor Fox]

There's nothing wrong with being stingy! ^_^ I always hold that armies work in synergy with each other... in some army configurations the pistols will pay for themselves easily, in others they wont. It also goes down to playstyle and which opponents you get how often, what you prefer, stuff like that.

 

That's why boards like this are great... you get intelligent discussion from lots of different generals with lots of different viewpoints, and can draw your own preferences and conclusions from what you read. Just because it works for me doesn't mean it'll work for everyone. I agree with a lot of your points as well, so I'm happy there's multiple views for everyone else to read.

[iNsOmNiAc'S dReAm]

I usually tool my Seraphim out with two pairs of inferno pistols and a V.S.S. with a book, Eviscerator, and a Bolt Pistol. I dont bother with the melta bombs cus if something survives through 2 twin-linked infernos AND a Eviscerator, its pretty much protected by a " higher power " and I'll take my spankings accordingly =P. As Nicole pointed out, those infernos are also useful again heavily armoured units aswell.

[number6]

Seraphim are just about the most tactically flexible unit in all of 40K. Love them! LOVE THEM! LOVE THEM!. :D

 

Being a DH general, my first order of business is to eliminate armour. 8 Seraphim, 2x inferno pistols, VSS w/eviscerator, 241 pts. Melta bombs actually aren't as reliable, as most armour is moving to try and avoid getting slagged by my Seraphim, so a maximum of 7 attempts (VSS will use the eviscerator, obviously) to roll a hit with the MBs is much less reliable than a pair of TL IPs.I have rarely had trouble jumping the girls into melta range, but when I did -- or when my I skunked my IP damage rolls -- I just assault with kraks and the eviscerator.

 

I could invest in a pair of hand flamers and MBs all around (46 pts), or save 16 pts and just take the IPs instead.

 

I prefer the latter option not just because of the armour and points savings, but also because of what NicolePykkonen said regarding heavy (e.g., TEQ) infantry. Such units usually have a significant advantage over my GKs in shooting and/or assault (e.g., Chaos termies with combi-plasmas all-around, OUCH!), and such units can actually be handled better with the girls than with the Knights. The girls run up and melt couple prior to assaulting the termies. Save their precious faith point for the first round of assault to keep them alive, then hit-n-run out and repeat, and the squad is gone. That eviscerator is a game-changer in situations like this; don't leave home without it.

 

It pains me to say this, but the GKs just can't do this kind of work efficiently.