the 5th edition killed us?

[Wolf89]

The 13nth co is a 4rth ed list... wich is why I think its hilarious that theyre trying to phase them out at all. Its more recent then our codex.

 

Well you're partially right, 13th co. was 3rd edition though, it came out in 2003, 4th edition came out in 2004, as I stated in my above post, but it was only a short time between the two.

 

The part you're dead on though is 13th co being more recent than space wolves and why the hell they're getting rid of them. :D

[The_Betrayed_Spacewolf]

one word. TOO POWERFUL!

[Bran Scalphunter]

one word. TOO POWERFUL!

 

Two words there mate.... :)

 

I figure they're trying to get rid of them because they are considered just a Campaign Army by GW, like the Slayers for Dwarves and Grimgor's 'Ard Boyz for O&G.

 

Edit: Yeah! 600th post! Ale to all my brothers here in the Fang! :)

[hendrik]

one word. TOO POWERFUL!

 

Two words there mate.... ;)

 

I figure they're trying to get rid of them because they are considered just a Campaign Army by GW, like the Slayers for Dwarves and Grimgor's 'Ard Boyz for O&G.

 

Edit: Yeah! 600th post! Ale to all my brothers here in the Fang! :(

first off all, give that keg!!!!

second, weren't the cadian just a campaign army too then?i think gw's just to lazy to develop more fluff for them to make a stand alone codex ,same with new units,because, let's be fair, the units available to the 13th company wouln'd be enought to fill a codex.

if gw however considered making a special character, the 13th company lord, i lost his name, that gives these special additional rules to allow wulfen and all that, but that's getting off topic too much, a habbit every wolf seems to have actually=p

[Lord Ragnarok]

The 13nth co is a 4rth ed list... wich is why I think its hilarious that theyre trying to phase them out at all. Its more recent then our codex.

 

Well you're partially right, 13th co. was 3rd edition though, it came out in 2003, 4th edition came out in 2004, as I stated in my above post, but it was only a short time between the two.

 

The part you're dead on though is 13th co being more recent than space wolves and why the hell they're getting rid of them. :whistling:

 

Wolf 89 is absolutely correct. I started playing 40k in spring/summer of 2004 and the 13th was well established before 4th hit in the fall.

[Grantyr Greymantle]

Agreed! 13th Company was my first 40K army and the 4th edition rulebook didn't come out until later

[Thylacine]

"has 5th ed really killed us wolves?"

 

No but the inconstancies have, the need to keep referring to wargear in the SM codex that no longer has a price is getting hard to take. Being in a strictly RAW playing environment (when it suites them) I find that my list is picked apart. As an example, Belt of Russ = Iron Halo, both exist but there is no points for the Iron Halo so I have been told by the TO that it can't be used. Vehicle prices are a mess, use the price for some vehicles in our codex but take others from the SM codex. Example, our Rhino costs 50 points with extra armour for 5 points, SM players have the same model and upgrade for 50 points. However if I take a Predator I have to remember to add the extra armour at 15 points. My lovely spreadsheet is a mess and I have shelved the upgrade process until the new SW codex is released.

 

Space Wolves were never an easy army to win with, with 5th ed and the new SM codex to contend with it is much harder to just compete let alone hope for a win.

[Het Masteen]

I think 5th Ed has done a lot for the Wolves. I've won more games in the last 3 months than in the 9 months before that. Some of that is down to new interpretations of rules, like those for True Grit, Podding and Counter-Attack, and some down to the new SM Codex and the shiny new stuff we can extract from it. I have to admit, I was losing interest in Wolves for a while but now they've got a new lease of life. I played an Ultramarine player last week and trounced him. He insisted on charging my command squad even after me telling him it was going to be a bad idea. The look on his face when I passed my leadership test and gained an attack and then added in the attack from the wolf pelts was priceless. It meant that my BL had more attacks than his Chaplain AND I was going first. Combat ended with me losing one WGBG and him losing his chaplain and an 8 man assault squad.

 

I still think that Wolves need a new codex if we're to be taken seriously on the tournament circuit (Thylacine, I feel your pain) but we can still hold our own in friendly matches.

[muzzyman1981]

Thylacine has a point, we probibly have to deal with the most craziness when it comes to explaining what we can and can't get/do with our beloved Wolves. For all you veteran players it's pretty easy to find things to explain your position but for noobies like myself who this is our first crack at playing it gets tough cause I have nothing to compare it to.

 

Btw, doesn't the Belt of Russ have a point value in the Space Wolves Codex? If there isn't anything for points in the SM Codex then wouldn't we revert to what our Codex says? I mean we take the description from the SM Codex but points from our Codex because it's in OUR armory? Now if it wasn't in our armory then I could see the point of not being able to take it due to no point value in the SM Codex....

[LPetersson]

No but the inconstancies have, the need to keep referring to wargear in the SM codex that no longer has a price is getting hard to take. Being in a strictly RAW playing environment (when it suites them) I find that my list is picked apart. As an example, Belt of Russ = Iron Halo, both exist but there is no points for the Iron Halo so I have been told by the TO that it can't be used. Vehicle prices are a mess, use the price for some vehicles in our codex but take others from the SM codex. Example, our Rhino costs 50 points with extra armour for 5 points, SM players have the same model and upgrade for 50 points. However if I take a Predator I have to remember to add the extra armour at 15 points. My lovely spreadsheet is a mess and I have shelved the upgrade process until the new SW codex is released.

 

I think you got something wrong there.

Our FAQ clearly states that we take the vehicle point costs from C:SM.

We get Rhinos at 35pts just like the smurfs...

 

And the Belt of Russ has a point cost in our codex, so of course you can use it.

The only wargear you can't use, or rather shouldn't, is the wargear that references items which no longer exist such as, IIRC, Fang of Morkai and Helm of Russ.

 

 

 

Thylacine has a point, we probibly have to deal with the most craziness when it comes to explaining what we can and can't get/do with our beloved Wolves. For all you veteran players it's pretty easy to find things to explain your position but for noobies like myself who this is our first crack at playing it gets tough cause I have nothing to compare it to.

 

Yup, I've returned from a 13 years break and it can be tricky to remember everything I need to remember to win.

I have started making a list of what every item can do that I need it to do, and which rules I keep forgetting (Relentless for termies, broken firing for PotMS and so on) and that has helped me loads...

 

I think the sons of Russ are strong and in fine shape. We just have to make sure that we always have copies of our FAQs/rules to hand when playing...

[Wolf89]

No but the inconstancies have, the need to keep referring to wargear in the SM codex that no longer has a price is getting hard to take. Being in a strictly RAW playing environment (when it suites them) I find that my list is picked apart. As an example, Belt of Russ = Iron Halo, both exist but there is no points for the Iron Halo so I have been told by the TO that it can't be used. Vehicle prices are a mess, use the price for some vehicles in our codex but take others from the SM codex. Example, our Rhino costs 50 points with extra armour for 5 points, SM players have the same model and upgrade for 50 points. However if I take a Predator I have to remember to add the extra armour at 15 points. My lovely spreadsheet is a mess and I have shelved the upgrade process until the new SW codex is released.

 

I think you got something wrong there.

Our FAQ clearly states that we take the vehicle point costs from C:SM.

We get Rhinos at 35pts just like the smurfs...

 

And the Belt of Russ has a point cost in our codex, so of course you can use it.

The only wargear you can't use, or rather shouldn't, is the wargear that references items which no longer exist such as, IIRC, Fang of Morkai and Helm of Russ.

 

 

 

Thylacine has a point, we probibly have to deal with the most craziness when it comes to explaining what we can and can't get/do with our beloved Wolves. For all you veteran players it's pretty easy to find things to explain your position but for noobies like myself who this is our first crack at playing it gets tough cause I have nothing to compare it to.

 

Yup, I've returned from a 13 years break and it can be tricky to remember everything I need to remember to win.

I have started making a list of what every item can do that I need it to do, and which rules I keep forgetting (Relentless for termies, broken firing for PotMS and so on) and that has helped me loads...

 

I think the sons of Russ are strong and in fine shape. We just have to make sure that we always have copies of our FAQs/rules to hand when playing...

 

I think the part where he's arguing is that it specifically doesn't state rhinos and razorbacks in our FAQ (in the German FAQ it does, but that's not the point) so the mess is still there, but our codex tells us to use C:SM anyways.

 

As for the Belt of Russ, it says use the description for Iron Halo, not the points, we still pay the XX points that are listed in our Codex SW, but use the description found at the SM Captain page. This is also like the standard bearer, the entry is for the command squad but we still pay XX points as per C:SW.

[Grey Mage]

Heres the thing.... looking at our respective boards, I have to say that over all space wolves are stronger than space marines. I think that may be why people are so self rightcheously upset about our codex.

 

Seriously, looking at the liber astartes and chapters of legend every time they bring up tournaments and "competitive" lists they have three, maybe four ideas.... all of wich center around alot of a single unit. Landraiders and sterngaurd seem to the be the most common but what really confuses the hell out of me is no one Ive seen there in a over a month has been advocating a balanced list.

 

We do here. And I think its atrocious that Space Marine players are saying they cant win unless they can have an extra landraider over what seems sane at the points, or that their tactical squads are now useless. I can think of atleast one forum on here who would kill to have their tactical squads at those points. Space Wolves on the other hand bring lots of different style lists, most of wich has some adaptability and few of wich are more than passingly similar.

 

Is this a problem with the players or a problem with the codex? Ive got the Marine dex, I have to lol, and I cant see it being overly restrictive. I cant understand how people can see all but four or five units as being inefficient. I had to seriously sit down and resist the fun lists I could have made with DIY chapter several months ago and had I not already been hooked on our fluff I probly would have set the wolves aside.

 

So whats going on here? Is 40k in general just becoming a bit emo?

[Wolf89]

Heres the thing.... looking at our respective boards, I have to say that over all space wolves are stronger than space marines. I think that may be why people are so self rightcheously upset about our codex.

 

Seriously, looking at the liber astartes and chapters of legend every time they bring up tournaments and "competitive" lists they have three, maybe four ideas.... all of wich center around alot of a single unit. Landraiders and sterngaurd seem to the be the most common but what really confuses the hell out of me is no one Ive seen there in a over a month has been advocating a balanced list.

 

We do here. And I think its atrocious that Space Marine players are saying they cant win unless they can have an extra landraider over what seems sane at the points, or that their tactical squads are now useless. I can think of atleast one forum on here who would kill to have their tactical squads at those points. Space Wolves on the other hand bring lots of different style lists, most of wich has some adaptability and few of wich are more than passingly similar.

 

Is this a problem with the players or a problem with the codex? Ive got the Marine dex, I have to lol, and I cant see it being overly restrictive. I cant understand how people can see all but four or five units as being inefficient. I had to seriously sit down and resist the fun lists I could have made with DIY chapter several months ago and had I not already been hooked on our fluff I probly would have set the wolves aside.

 

So whats going on here? Is 40k in general just becoming a bit emo?

 

(>^.\\)> Emo Kirby wants to play... is that hair? or a hood covering his eyes... :o

 

I agree, balance is the what we do best, and as much as I'd to want to field my nilla marines all the time, I get frustrated quickly with my troopers being so weak in combat and shooting compared to my grey hunters with great HQ's and leaders joining them.

[Grey Mage]

Well its not hair... maybe the fur of his enemies. And yeah... Grey Hunters are amazing. I cant see normal marines as being particularly weak though, you just dont want to use them in large close combats or were they dont have a good chance of winning.

[Wolf89]

Well its not hair... maybe the fur of his enemies. And yeah... Grey Hunters are amazing. I cant see normal marines as being particularly weak though, you just dont want to use them in large close combats or were they dont have a good chance of winning.

 

See that's what my problem was, I was still "thinking" I was playing wolves I guess, and it's a lot harder to bash through necrons without being wolves...

[Grey Mage]

Yeah we had a long time Chaos player at my LGS who wanted to try out the new marine codex... mostly bought stuff he could convert over if he felt that it went bust. Lost his first 12 games, hasnt really played much since. His reasoning? He couldnt wrap his head around how a normal marine was so unspectacular in CC while all the characters were geared for it. 1 attack just could not do it for him, he needed 2. So he went back to chaos. I tried to show him the joys of playing a space wolf army, but he didnt even deign to look at them... never did figure out why.

[WolfLordLars]

Little late to the party, but I am with Rag - started in early 2004, and I believe EoT was already out by then. I considered doing 13th co, but they didnt allow dreads (or terminators) so I went with regular wolves.

 

At least folks are still playing 40k at your store. I went and got my wolves out of storage, played 2-3 games, and everyone switched games (again).

[LPetersson]

I think the part where he's arguing is that it specifically doesn't state rhinos and razorbacks in our FAQ (in the German FAQ it does, but that's not the point) so the mess is still there, but our codex tells us to use C:SM anyways.

 

As for the Belt of Russ, it says use the description for Iron Halo, not the points, we still pay the XX points that are listed in our Codex SW, but use the description found at the SM Captain page. This is also like the standard bearer, the entry is for the command squad but we still pay XX points as per C:SW.

 

Yup, true, it says so in the German FAQ which I have printed, taped to some cardboard, and bring with me when I play.

And if someone doesn't believe what I say I whip out my laptop and head straight for Google Translate :-D

 

So yeah, I see what you mean about some mess still being there, I just think it's less of a problem if you come to the party prepared :o

And yes, the standard bearer is another excellent example...

 

Given how much potential we have, I don't mind seeing it as my responsibility to point to the rules that say what I can and can't do, and under 5th ed I'm not finding that particularly difficult ^_^

hmmm, i'm wondering if I should make my spreadsheet a bit prettier and upload it...

[Grey Mage]

The other thing is how well do you know the people youare playing? Im relatively familiar with most of the gamers that come through my LGS and Ive always talked to them about any questions they had, referred them to whatever printed resources I could and just kinda helped out... wether it was my army or not. At this point most of them are used to my -RAW... but have some fun with it- approach. I still get a person here or there who says "you cant do that with space marines" at wich point I simply say "good thing I dont play space marines then right?" and offer to show them my books after Im finished with my game. Unless its my opponent, and then its time for a break and a bit of homework reading.

[the jeske]

I tried to show him the joys of playing a space wolf army, but he didnt even deign to look at them... never did figure out why.

GH are 18 pts chaos sm , without 2 specials ?? weaker HQs , very much weaker hvy support . no lash . not everyone likes to play with the BC spam.

 

Agreed! 13th Company was my first 40K army and the 4th edition rulebook didn't come out until later

are you guys sure about it . I remember we tested the armagedon codex with the 4th rules [because my m8 was totally crazy happy how wright lords no longer can kill his powerfist guys in hth combat].

 

 

He couldnt wrap his head around how a normal marine was so unspectacular in CC while all the characters were geared for it. 1 attack just could not do it for him, he needed 2.

its not only that . normal sm arent very good at both hth [well actually compering to other armies like BA/SW/Chaos/BT etc they suck hard] and are not really that great at shoting. they have to be static to use hvies , combat squading doesnt work when your "assault" unit is 5 man strong and everyone is runing in 8/10 man units , same with shoty 5 man squads as most people build units for mulit shot to put wounds on 10 man squads hvies in 5 man combat squads die really fast etc etc

its funny how the best armies build out of the sm codex [the glory to ultras one] are the th non codex ones. the khan army build , the cantor list . Its pure lols.

[Thylacine]

The rules for 13th company came out in the Eye of Terror codex C 2003, the 4th edition of the rules were released on September 8 2004.

 

A lot of the problems we face with the rules come from GW selling strategy, they released the SW codex but forced you to buy the SM codex because some rules needed for play were in the SM codex. Over the years they have not address this problem and we find ourselves with the problem of having wargear that can't be purchased seperately in the SM codex or the rules for its use has been dropped from the SM codex but the item and price is still in the SW codex.

 

When you attend a tournament, you take the rule book, SW codex, SM codex and the FAQ. No tournament organiser (TO) will let you use rule from a previous edition of the SM codex even if the item is still in your codex and priced there. We suffer because of GW's past, flawed sales policy. Because the TO must use RAW and apply it to all the various lists used in the tournament he can't go easy on us..

 

The FAQ (English) did not mention Rhinos or Razorbacks, so under RAW we use the old prices but may take the upgrades (Las-plasma turret) and prices for them from the SM codex. It would be so easy for GW to amend the SW FAQ but they don't because in the grand scheme of things it matters little to them. 'THATS NOT GOOD ENOUGH'

 

I suppose we could bombard their e-mail with requests for a proper FAQ, tie up their phone lines, mention it to the local news channel (if your in the UK) and try to force or shame them into fixing the problem. Until then. ' we still have problems'. As an example my local GW store manager refuses to accept that the Space Wolves are a valid army because he does not sell the codex in the store but sells the models!

 

We had problems with the list in 4th ed and we have more in 5th ed.

 

Thylacine