Venter_Of_Russ Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 So, rune priests, a friend of mine has decided to question who is more loved across the imperium: Marneus Calgar, or our own Great Wolf Lord Grimnar. I've been trying to make the case to him, but he isn't sold... so I figured some of our best historians would be able to give me some better evidence to work with :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/154096-the-old-wolf/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 the problem with this is that Logan hasnt the shine job placed upon him that codex ultramarines *AHEM* space marines does for the nancy boy... i would try looking for the old "Heroes and Villians" article on logan, i forgot what WD issue it was in. wolf lord kieran Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/154096-the-old-wolf/#findComment-1796759 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonny Wolf Posted December 5, 2008 Share Posted December 5, 2008 Heroes and Villans - "He is also one of the imperiums most oldest and renowned warriors." "Logan's exploits are known throughout the Imperium. He is one of the great heroes of Mankind, whose image is universally recognized adn respected, and his conquests span the galaxy. Many human worlds owe their existence to his might, and on several planets, he is hailed as a savior and patron. Every year, paryers are offered up in his name on a dozen worlds. To this day, tributes continue to arrive at Fenris from grateful planetary lords, and the Old Wolf remains possibly the most highly respected and best loved warrior in the entire galaxy." Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/154096-the-old-wolf/#findComment-1796779 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted December 5, 2008 Share Posted December 5, 2008 Show him Codex: Eye of Terror or a PDF thereof.... it comes right out and says he is the most beloved commander in the entire emperium. Or not that while calgar has impressive rules and all Grimnar actually has a rule about being inspiring and beloved. Also note that the Great wolf actually has to get a rowdy bunch of barbarians to follow him, while calgars soldiers are rather brainwashed by comparison.... It seems pretty obvious really. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/154096-the-old-wolf/#findComment-1796869 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bran Scalphunter Posted December 5, 2008 Share Posted December 5, 2008 So to boil it down: Logan Grimnar, Lord of the Wolves = Bestest ever leader, people lurve him and only the enemies of the Imperium fear his name. He fights for the common man and has come close to waging war against the =][= to save Mankind. Marneus Calgar, Lord of the Ultrasmurfs = GW's posterboy, GW lurve him and most of us revile him. He fights for the right to add even more shiny crap to his armor and his Chapter of lobotomized Toy Soldiers. Grimnar v Calgar = Grimnar spanking Mr. God of War with the Axe Morkai... *mental image of Grimmy holding Calgar over one TDA knee and spanking Cal with Morkai :D :P * Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/154096-the-old-wolf/#findComment-1796877 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted December 5, 2008 Share Posted December 5, 2008 Im tellin yah, Eternal warrior doesnt stop hitting/wounding on 3's with seven attacks. Statisticly if the dice gods let you roundup calgars dead before he even gets to swing. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/154096-the-old-wolf/#findComment-1796878 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JEFF4i Posted December 5, 2008 Share Posted December 5, 2008 You know what? I'm busting out both models, camera, and I'm going to have a duel between them, and try to be as fair as possible. That said, I think; A) You asking in this forum answers your question. :P Marneus, and I do respect the guy, has a lot going for him. But PR with the people, especially the billions of humans in the Imperium, isn't high up there. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/154096-the-old-wolf/#findComment-1797026 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Betrayed_Spacewolf Posted December 5, 2008 Share Posted December 5, 2008 our boy logan would win. as said before 7 attacks that ignore armour can ruin even a god of wars day. i cant wait tell our codex comes out. its gonna have logan facing off against 3 avatars of war and taking them all out with a autarch leg Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/154096-the-old-wolf/#findComment-1797048 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Bjoern Posted December 5, 2008 Share Posted December 5, 2008 Logan Grimnar had faced Angorn and his World Eaters during the 1st War of Armageddon. Even that he had not fight Angorn personal (that had been Brother Captain Aurellian from the Grey Knights), it was his superior tactic that had stopped and smashed the chaos forces. And not to forget the 13th Black Crusade. It had been Logan Grimnar that had been elected to lead the Defense of the Cadian Gate. One of the greatest actions of the UM had been the Tyranid Wars. But let´s face the truth, the first one may had been won, but to what price? The UM had lost their home world to an alien race. Shame on you Daddy Smurf! They had failed to defend their home world successfully. They had been force to recapture it from the ´nids. Not to mention if we start to compare the history of our chapter from the HH on. We had defended our home world two times successfully. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/154096-the-old-wolf/#findComment-1797066 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Betrayed_Spacewolf Posted December 5, 2008 Share Posted December 5, 2008 and saved the entire chapter before as well. wolf's honour. thank you very much Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/154096-the-old-wolf/#findComment-1797090 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vassakov Posted December 5, 2008 Share Posted December 5, 2008 Dark Bjoern is correct, but doesn't go far enough. So far, Grimnar has faced down two of the greatest traitors in the galaxy - Angron at Armageddon and Magnus the Red on Garm. The Cadians might bar the gate to hell, but Grimnar kicked Chaos back first. He has over 700 years of service to his name - Calgar has but 400 IIRC. Calgar may well be better loved, though. He needs his ego propping up through their successors. We Wolves need no successors! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/154096-the-old-wolf/#findComment-1797096 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnus Aurelius Posted December 5, 2008 Share Posted December 5, 2008 I agree, Logan is more loved in the Imperium. It says so in his friggin rules :tu: Magnus Aurelius @Bran Scalphunter: Ey, it's not the Ultramarines fault they are the poster boys. Blame GW, not the chapter ^_^. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/154096-the-old-wolf/#findComment-1797126 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaveriK Posted December 5, 2008 Share Posted December 5, 2008 Calgar may well be better loved, though. He needs his ego propping up through their successors. We Wolves need no successors! haha well said :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/154096-the-old-wolf/#findComment-1797162 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Bjoern Posted December 5, 2008 Share Posted December 5, 2008 @MaveriK: Long time not seen, Brother. I feared you lost in the Warp. Glad to see you´re still alive. Not to forget that Calgar and his poster boys need a book to know which side of a bolter is the dangerous end. While Calgar is still searching in the Index of the Codex Astartes for the right tactic how to fight the enemy, Logan is already celebrating his victory with his fifth ale. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/154096-the-old-wolf/#findComment-1797174 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wulfen00 Posted December 5, 2008 Share Posted December 5, 2008 Lets look at the facts: 1. Weapon of choice, a freaking spectacular axe taken from a chaos champion, or a pair of gloves handed down. Win= trophy weapon. It proves his value as a warrior, having to fight and take his weapon instead of having it given. 2. Stat wise: Calgar has +1 wound, and immune to instant death. Though for equiv Armour he costs +15 points, overall going to give this to Calgar. 3. Gear, Calgar has the uber bolter gloves of doom, and a power sword. Logan has a frost weapon (+1str) and/or a power fist. Also Logan always hits on 3+, re-rolling one failed to hit. Calgar gets to re roll failed to wound. This one goes to Logan, spliting attacks between +1 str no save or a fist, the 3+ hit and +1 attack when charged, ya its all bad against him. 4. Fluff, now this one goes back and forth, admittedly Calgar is the closest thing to the emperor walking around with his abundant secondary foundings, respect from the =][= for being the papa smurf and doing as directed and having some tough battles (admittedly) BUT Logan is constantly pitted against arch foes, daemon primarchs, abaddon, the =][= legions of chaos scum. Also Calgar goes to battle more when needed, preferring to direct the battle from command posts, Logan leads from he front, his GC leading the charge because he wants to, not because the greatest SW is needed but because he feels like it. Also the fact that he is ancient (only older is castodes and Dante) and the fact he was chosen to lead the force to repel the latest black crusade, never mind being a major roll in the Armageddon wars. Yes Calgar is THE papa smurf and highly respected in the imperium. But Logan is the granddaddy bad boy with the smarts and cunning to turn the tide when needed. So this one is Logans, hes just has more fluff, knowledge, and prowess as a commander then any papa smurf. Logan 3 Calgar 1 P.S. Wulfen is back, Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/154096-the-old-wolf/#findComment-1797212 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balroth Posted December 5, 2008 Share Posted December 5, 2008 *YAAAAWN* It's quite clear that they are respected by different people. Calgar is more respected by the organisation of the Imperium. IE: The Inquisition, other Marine Chapters, etc. Logan is more respected by the 'common man', and I'm including planetary governments in that. While I fully understand and agree with the frustration caused by the rampant fanboyism towards the Ultramarines in the new Codex (this coming from a guy who's been an Ultramarine since 1996), nowhere does it say that Calgar is loved by everyone throughout the Imperium. It does say that all Marine Chapters want to be Ultramarines (*spew*) and that the other first founding Chapters are inferior because 'they can never be Ultramarines' (get me a bucket!), I didn't spot any references to Calgar being the most loved Chapter Master throughout the Imperium. I don't see where you get the impression that Calgar prefers to direct the battle from afar. In all the background I've read, it's been quite the contrary. This isn't to say I'm knocking Logan. In fact, as a personality as presented in background, I prefer him to Calgar (who's always come across as a bit bland to me). There seems to be quite a lot of ranting in this thread, and not much concious thought going on. -B Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/154096-the-old-wolf/#findComment-1797265 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted December 5, 2008 Share Posted December 5, 2008 i think we need to start locking that fang, quite alot of ultramarines are sneaking in these days... wolf lord kieran Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/154096-the-old-wolf/#findComment-1797649 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wulfen00 Posted December 5, 2008 Share Posted December 5, 2008 I knew those weren't the gummie bears i ordered........(hay i got a sweet fang alright,) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/154096-the-old-wolf/#findComment-1797785 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted December 6, 2008 Share Posted December 6, 2008 The fluff where he outfought the eldar in a hit and run style battle was where I got the impression he was sitting back and directing from afar.... cause it sounded like he was sitting down in a command room and organizing it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/154096-the-old-wolf/#findComment-1798126 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Betrayed_Spacewolf Posted December 6, 2008 Share Posted December 6, 2008 actually marneus is more of an arm chair general. he sent the third and seventh company to reclaim maccrage while he was in the captain's seat on his flag ship looking for nids Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/154096-the-old-wolf/#findComment-1798143 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gondlir the Wandbearer Posted December 6, 2008 Share Posted December 6, 2008 (only older is castodes and Dante) And Ulric - but he's a Wolf, too. Oh, and I dare any Ultrasmurf to come say that we wanna be like them or are inferior to Logan's face - or any SW, for that matter. ... Yeah. Didn't think so. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/154096-the-old-wolf/#findComment-1798379 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Bjoern Posted December 6, 2008 Share Posted December 6, 2008 (only older is castodes and Dante) And Ulric - but he's a Wolf, too. No, Ulrik is not older then Gimnar. During the 1st War of Armageddon Ulrik fight as a WG for Wolf Lord Kruger. After the Wolf Lord´s death the others wanted to elect Ulrik as their new WL but he refused that. Instead they made him a Wolf Priest. Logan had been the Great Wolf at this time already. At best they are about the same age. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/154096-the-old-wolf/#findComment-1798391 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf89 Posted December 6, 2008 Share Posted December 6, 2008 (only older is castodes and Dante) Dante has 1200 years right? As others have said, Logan is more of the "common man" being loved, he's actually open minded instead of narrow like most of the marines out there, and he couldn't give two hoots about the =][=. I think it was GM who was talking about Calgar leading from afar, but if you've read the books, you'll note that Logan doesn't really fight either and he explains to Ragnar why... :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/154096-the-old-wolf/#findComment-1798407 Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPetersson Posted December 6, 2008 Share Posted December 6, 2008 No, Ulrik is not older then Gimnar. During the 1st War of Armageddon Ulrik fight as a WG for Wolf Lord Kruger. After the Wolf Lord´s death the others wanted to elect Ulrik as their new WL but he refused that. Instead they made him a Wolf Priest. Logan had been the Great Wolf at this time already. At best they are about the same age. Interesting. In the designer notes for Ulrik it says that he was Logan and Ragnars friend and mentor... I would've thought he would have to be older than Logan for that to be the case. Unless they meant logan's friend and Ragnars mentor :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/154096-the-old-wolf/#findComment-1798413 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Bjoern Posted December 6, 2008 Share Posted December 6, 2008 (only older is castodes and Dante) Dante has 1200 years right? As others have said, Logan is more of the "common man" being loved, he's actually open minded instead of narrow like most of the marines out there, and he couldn't give two hoots about the =][=. I think it was GM who was talking about Calgar leading from afar, but if you've read the books, you'll note that Logan doesn't really fight either and he explains to Ragnar why... :D Dante is 1100 years old. Logan leads from the Front if nessecary. During the 13th Black Crusade it had been he and his Nightrunners that had defended Kasr Sol against a Traitor force that had outnubered the Old Wolf´s one. And he had won. And the entry for Logan in our ´dex includes a short story about a operation against orks that the Great Wolf wanted to lead personally. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/154096-the-old-wolf/#findComment-1798415 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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