Melta bombs and Monoliths

[Kadaeux]

Got a link?

[SeattleDV8]

GW FAQs

[Playa]

Hey,

 

the weapon. it is not an additional die, it has no listed S value

 

Well, if the entry says S + d6, and a melta bomb doesn't have a S, it would seem you just RAW'd yourself out of the possibility to even glance

 

RBv5 p32 refers to Weapons of type Melta, not Equipment of type Grenade.

 

It plainly says in the entry, that in practice, you'll only ever get a D6 for penetration

 

Yes, Crondex p33 plainly says that of MCs, Chainfists and Melta *Weapons*.

Weapons of type Melta may roll an extra die depending on range to target.

This is the "bonus" die referenced by so many Cron players.

 

RBv5 p63 lists MBs - as Specialist Equipment - in the "Grenades" sidebar.

Grenades are distinct from Weapons, and have no Strength value in v5.

They're listed as having an AP value, with MBs being AP8+2d6.

 

AFAIK, no errata have changed these rules.

 

 

Playa

[Disistablishmentarianism]

Hey,

 

the weapon. it is not an additional die, it has no listed S value

 

Well, if the entry says S + d6, and a melta bomb doesn't have a S, it would seem you just RAW'd yourself out of the possibility to even glance

 

RBv5 p32 refers to Weapons of type Melta, not Equipment of type Grenade.

 

It plainly says in the entry, that in practice, you'll only ever get a D6 for penetration

 

Yes, Crondex p33 plainly says that of MCs, Chainfists and Melta *Weapons*.

Weapons of type Melta may roll an extra die depending on range to target.

This is the "bonus" die referenced by so many Cron players.

 

RBv5 p63 lists MBs - as Specialist Equipment - in the "Grenades" sidebar.

Grenades are distinct from Weapons, and have no Strength value in v5.

They're listed as having an AP value, with MBs being AP8+2d6.

 

AFAIK, no errata have changed these rules.

 

 

Playa

 

Most grenades lack the gall to even glance the monolith.

Yes, the Armour Penetration power is listed as 8 + 2d6, the eight taking the place of the str value. I think we can call it 'str' for now without too many problems or crying people.

The fact of it is, you still will only EVER get ONE die for armour penetration, telling me it has no real str value won't change that.

[nighthawks]

it has been argued over and over, and logically it makes sense, that the armour penetration (the only damage a grenade may ever cause, btw) of a grenade includes inherant S and D6 or D3 components. but it is never stated as such. the 8+2D6 is only ever listed as armour penetration. the 2D6 does NOT include an "extra" die, it is the basic, unmodified armour pen of the meltbomb.

 

melta weapons at half range, MCs, chainfists, and evicerators get an extra D6 armour pen and don't get same against the monolith. these items are all stated as having an "extra" die in their descriptions. against wound-having models, they all only have their basic S, or the modified S of the user. a grenade may not be used against models with wounds, only armour. they are not the same thing and do not follow the same rules.

 

again - I have been told I'm wrong time and again, but NO ONE has ever had an argument other than the belief that grenades follow typical S+D6 armour pen rules, which is not stated in the BRB, from 4th or 5th (nor 3rd IIRC). this is one of those "everyone believes it is so" rules, and desperately needs some clarification from the boys at GW.

[eyescrossed]

I believe that Vindicators are clightly better at destroying vehicles than a Godhammer LR. I always include atleast one of each in my army (actually 2 Vindicators and a LR) ... and the Vindicators do as much damage, if not more.

 

You are able to roll two dice for the AP and pick the highest one due to the Ordnance rule (I'm pretty sure this can still be used on the Monolith). The only disadvantage it has is it's short range, and it has quite a reasonable chance to scatter.

 

Then again the LR anti-tank capability has improved in 5th due to PMS. 6" move plus 2 TW las shots against two different targets ftw.

 

Both are beasts on the battlefield, but I believe that the Vindicator comes out on top in regards to damage potential. Then again, a LR can survive for longer, thus dishing out more hurt.

No, you cannot - you only ever use ONE die to attempt to penetrate, even with ordnance.

[SeattleDV8]

No Nighthawk is correct in that you roll 2 dice but only use the highest roll. This is also mentioned in the FAQ as correct.

[nighthawks]

and the ordinance rule is IN the monolith rules as an exception to the living metal. wow.

[eyescrossed]

Well my codex was miles away so ^_^

[Playa]

Hey,

 

the eight taking the place of the str value. I think we can call it 'str' for now without too many problems

 

I have a problem with not just calling it "AP" - as it's written. Particularly as "Str" clearly is *not* written.

Further, the new FAQ still lets us double our Str vs Monos with Fists, Klaws, Hammers, etc.

So, I think you may be misremembering old arguments on the subject.

 

The fact of it is, you still will only EVER get ONE die for armour penetration

 

No. The fact of it is, that the LM rule has *never* stated anything about 1d6 for AP. Ever.

It refers *only* to weapons with "additional AP dice" not getting their "extra dice".

There is nothing "additional" or "extra" about the AP of grenades.

 

This sort of "unlearning" inevitably happens with each rev.

 

telling me it has no real str value won't change that

 

Just read the rules for Melta Bombs under "Grenades" on p32 in the RB.

Then look at the Living Metal rules on p21 of the Crondex.

 

If that doesn't change your mind, nothing will.

 

 

Playa

[Steelmage99]

The normal amount of d6s rolled in Armour Penetration is 1. Anything more than that is an "additional" die.

(the additional die rolled with Ordnance is a specific example explained in the rules/FAQ. Just mentioning it before somebody yells; "but Ordnance rolls an additional die too!!1!!").

 

My take on it anyway.

[Kadaeux]

The normal amount of d6s rolled in Armour Penetration is 1. Anything more than that is an "additional" die.

(the additional die rolled with Ordnance is a specific example explained in the rules/FAQ. Just mentioning it before somebody yells; "but Ordnance rolls an additional die too!!1!!").

 

My take on it anyway.

 

Agreed. Normal penetration is one dice. Anything that rolls more than one dice is rolling extra. Now seeing as only Ordnance weapons are excepted from the LA rule melta bombs are effected.

[nighthawks]

"normal" armour penetration is S+1D6, as in the BRB P60

"...grenades have the following armour penetration:... melta bombs, 8+2D6" on P63. they do not have a strength characteristic, only an AP value.

 

bonuses die to armour penetration are not rolled (turbo penetrator excluded) and ordinance has a higher of 2, so is also excluded. Also, from C:Necrons, page 21, "living metal:" In practice, any weapon attacking the monolith will roll for armour penetration using its unaugmented strength and a single D6 no matter what."

 

8+2D6 for a melta bomb has no extra or bonus die, no strength value, so it suffers no penalty against living metal.

[SeattleDV8]

Ordnance still only uses one of the two rolls. That fits the logic.

The other exception is the Vindicare Assassin's Turbo-Penetrator it keeps it armour penetration of 3D6.

By this logic the melta bomb should also keep its stated armour penetration,but it doesn't.

Well hopefully they will clean that mish-mash that is Necrons' rules soon.

[DemetriiTZ]

Allow me to throw a monkeywrench in your debates. I'm going to side with the Grenade is not a Weapon, and 8+2d6 is not a strength value.

 

Allow me, furthermore, to state precedent: Acid Spore Mines.

 

Acid Spore Mines get to roll 3+2d6 for armor penetration. This is their 'special rule', and it is stated that, no, 3+2d6 is not their 'Strength Value', they simply always roll 3+2d6 for armor penetration.

 

I will argue that 8+2d6 is not the meltabomb's strength value. It is simply what it always rolls to penetrate armor.

 

I will even show you that the meltabomb is not 'melta', and doesn't get the 2d6 from being melta, BECAUSE it has no AP1, and therefore, no +1 to the damage table.

 

Thread over. I win.

[Kadaeux]

Allow me to throw a monkeywrench in your debates. I'm going to side with the Grenade is not a Weapon, and 8+2d6 is not a strength value.

 

Allow me, furthermore, to state precedent: Acid Spore Mines.

 

Acid Spore Mines get to roll 3+2d6 for armor penetration. This is their 'special rule', and it is stated that, no, 3+2d6 is not their 'Strength Value', they simply always roll 3+2d6 for armor penetration.

 

I will argue that 8+2d6 is not the meltabomb's strength value. It is simply what it always rolls to penetrate armor.

 

I will even show you that the meltabomb is not 'melta', and doesn't get the 2d6 from being melta, BECAUSE it has no AP1, and therefore, no +1 to the damage table.

 

Thread over. I win.

 

Let ME throw a monkey wrench into your logic.

 

Acid Spore Mines STATE that it's not their strength value.

Melta Bombs DO NOT STATE that it's not their strength value. Ergo it IS their strength value.

[angronn]

I think I have to side with Nighthawks. Although I feel the 8 is intended to be the strength value, it at no point indicates that it is so. Thus, RAW would seem to support his interpretation, although it does feel a little wrong. I would personally use the RAI myself.

 

I can't wait for the the Necrons rulebook-breaking Codex to be redone.

[Disistablishmentarianism]

Woops. Double Post.

[Disistablishmentarianism]

Allow me to throw a monkeywrench in your debates. I'm going to side with the Grenade is not a Weapon, and 8+2d6 is not a strength value.

 

Allow me, furthermore, to state precedent: Acid Spore Mines.

 

Acid Spore Mines get to roll 3+2d6 for armor penetration. This is their 'special rule', and it is stated that, no, 3+2d6 is not their 'Strength Value', they simply always roll 3+2d6 for armor penetration.

 

I will argue that 8+2d6 is not the meltabomb's strength value. It is simply what it always rolls to penetrate armor.

 

I will even show you that the meltabomb is not 'melta', and doesn't get the 2d6 from being melta, BECAUSE it has no AP1, and therefore, no +1 to the damage table.

 

Thread over. I win.

 

Let ME throw a monkey wrench into your logic.

 

Acid Spore Mines STATE that it's not their strength value.

Melta Bombs DO NOT STATE that it's not their strength value. Ergo it IS their strength value.

Kadaeux has it, also melta is not categorized by AP1, moreso the special rule which is strangely enough called 'melta'. Also it'd be a bit funny if the rules for melta bombs went on to state that if your within half range you get an extra d6, so for sanity's sake they just said the penetration value is 2d6.

Who'd have though.

Don't ever be so quick to state you win.

GW has always been a little funky with wording and where I game I can see it as being a no to the 2d6 penetration for the melta bomb, of course this may differ between gaming groups. Either way I'd personally go with the majority, I don't mind either way.

 

I think I have to side with Nighthawks. Although I feel the 8 is intended to be the strength value, it at no point indicates that it is so. Thus, RAW would seem to support his interpretation, although it does feel a little wrong. I would personally use the RAI myself.

 

I can't wait for the the Necrons rulebook-breaking Codex to be redone.

Don't hold your breath.

[WarpSpawn]

Allow me, furthermore, to state precedent: Acid Spore Mines.

 

Acid Spore Mines get to roll 3+2d6 for armor penetration. This is their 'special rule', and it is stated that, no, 3+2d6 is not their 'Strength Value', they simply always roll 3+2d6 for armor penetration.

 

Let ME throw a monkey wrench into your logic.

 

Acid Spore Mines STATE that it's not their strength value.

Melta Bombs DO NOT STATE that it's not their strength value. Ergo it IS their strength value.

 

Where does it say this? I can find nothing that explicitly says any such thing for spore mines in the 'nid book. I am aware it says armour pen is 2D6+3 but cannot see anything that explicitly says it is not a strength value. You are just left with the natural assumption that it is, as the mine has S3 against models with a T value.

 

Not sure how this effects the subject being discussed here as grenades have no clearly stated S value for any other purpose.

 

Edit: I see now, it's in the 'nid FAQ. This would mean you are incorrect then Kadaeux. With no explicit statement in the actual codex, it is assumed that the 3 is not a strength value. They just FAQ'ed it later to clarify. It does not then necessarilly need an explicit statement for grenades either to say that it is not a strength value, it's just that we have not had an FAQ for that one yet to rule either way.

[Kadaeux]

Where does it say this? I can find nothing that explicitly says any such thing for spore mines in the 'nid book. I am aware it says armour pen is 2D6+3 but cannot see anything that explicitly says it is not a strength value. You are just left with the natural assumption that it is, as the mine has S3 against models with a T value.

 

Not sure how this effects the subject being discussed here as grenades have no clearly stated S value for any other purpose.

 

Edit: I see now, it's in the 'nid FAQ. This would mean you are incorrect then Kadaeux. With no explicit statement in the actual codex, it is assumed that the 3 is not a strength value. They just FAQ'ed it later to clarify. It does not then necessarilly need an explicit statement for grenades either to say that it is not a strength value, it's just that we have not had an FAQ for that one yet to rule either way.

 

WRONG.

 

FAQ overrides the 'dex.

 

The 'dex required an FAQ to clarify this point.

The Rulebook has no FAQ clarifying this point therefore people must be using them correctly, meaning NO 2D6.

[WarpSpawn]

I think you are confusing FAQs with errata. The FAQ in no way modifies what is written in the book, it merely provides guidance on how to interpret what is already written. Errata overrides the book it applies to, whereas the FAQ overrides nothing, it merely complements it. I don’t think we even need to start on GW’s attitude to the “official” nature of FAQs.

 

The main rulebook describes the AP of a melta bomb in a very similar fashion to how the ‘nid codex describes the AP of these spore mines. Since the ‘nid book contains no explicit statements to elaborate on this, it is far from unreasonable to assume the same wording in another book (similarly lacking in explicit statements) can be interpreted the same.

[Zieggenfus]

Points I've taken from the discussion

 

Meltabombs aren't weapons, they're grenades.

"...grenades have the following armour penetration:... melta bombs, 8+2D6"

 

with precedent:

 

Acid Spore Mines get to roll 3+2d6 for armor penetration. This is their 'special rule', and it is stated that, no, 3+2d6 is not their 'Strength Value', they simply always roll 3+2d6 for armor penetration.

 

and

bonuses die to armour penetration are not rolled (turbo penetrator excluded)

 

countered by:

 

bonuses die to armour penetration are not rolled (turbo penetrator excluded) and ordinance has a higher of 2, so is also excluded. Also, from C:Necrons, page 21, "living metal:" In practice, any weapon attacking the monolith will roll for armour penetration using its unaugmented strength and a single D6 no matter what."

 

 

Some one teach GW how to write rules.

 

It would seem that "grenades aren't weapons" deals with the "in practice" statement. While the turbo penetrator and grenades only have AP argument advocates for 8+2D6 AP value.

 

In a virgin field, I don't think any of us would argue otherwise, but this isn't that, and very few will change the long cherished and hallowed belief that's meltabombs don't hurt monoliths..... the entrenched will be not denied. :huh:

 

in other words, unless it if errata'd/faq'd otherwise, meltabombs will do 8+1D6 dmg

[Steelmage99]

"normal" armour penetration is S+1D6, as in the BRB P60

"...grenades have the following armour penetration:... melta bombs, 8+2D6" on P63. they do not have a strength characteristic, only an AP value.

 

bonuses die to armour penetration are not rolled (turbo penetrator excluded) and ordinance has a higher of 2, so is also excluded. Also, from C:Necrons, page 21, "living metal:" In practice, any weapon attacking the monolith will roll for armour penetration using its unaugmented strength and a single D6 no matter what."

 

8+2D6 for a melta bomb has no extra or bonus die, no strength value, so it suffers no penalty against living metal.

 

You are reaching, Nighthawks. Really reaching.

 

Let me see if I get this right. You argue that Melta Bombs, indeed all grenades, have a strength of 0 and an armour penetration of X + YD6. In the case of Melta Bombs this is 8 + 2D6. So the armour penetration roll is 0 + (8 + 2D6).

 

But following the quote you present we get the following armour penetration; Unargumented strength + 1D6 (no matter what). You argue that grenades all have strength 0, so the result is an armour penetration roll of 0 + 1D6.

 

I this what you mean? Because it is certainly what you say.

[DemetriiTZ]

Grenades have no strength value. They are different from weapons of both a shooting and close-combat variety.

 

A ) They are wargear, not weapons.

B ) They have no strength value, period. In fact, where one would assume they'd see strength, it actually says 'Armor Penetration'.

C ) There is precedent, and the precedent could be argued, but has been clarified by errata. (RE: Spore Mines.)

D ) Rules as Intended would seem to indicate a meltabomb wouldn't get the 2d6. However, in a tourney, I don't care about RAI.

E ) Rules as written state no 'bonus dice' to armor penetration. We already clearly see that in some cases, 2d6 is not a bonus, but simply a base value for what is rolled. The 4, 6, and 8 which come with Frag, Krak, and Melta Bombs are not strength values; if they were, they would function on enemy models also. They have no strength value. Frag grenades are even used in an assault, and do no damage. Therefore, Grenades also sometimes have two different 'functions' depending on situation, similar to Spore Mines; I.E., they are Strength 3 AP3 on models, and S3+2d6 on vehicles.

(If you really want to be silly and point out that GW claims grenades function in assault, and are 'imagined' to do damage on the charge, why then do Marines still lose their charging attack when they charge defensive grenade troopers, but still use their base initiative, indicating the grenades performed their function. I'm well aware that 'use your imagination' is not a rule, but I wanted to pander to the straw-graspers.)

F ) If you already have errata clarifying a similar point, you don't need more errata to clarify the same point in a different codex.

 

What you can take away from this (once again), is that, due to poor wording, meltabombs should, by RAW, get 8+2d6 on a monolith, with no AP1 value. These are not bonus dice, because the grenade has no strength value against anything, and cannot be used ON anything besides vehicles. Bonus dice are defined. We already know that a Monstrous Creature rolls S+2d6 on vehicles, and only uses 1d6 on enemy models. The bonus comes when applied to vehicles. Meltabombs are BETTER at killing vehicles, but do not have a 'bonus', because they never, in any other situation, roll anything besides 8+2d6. If they do count as bonus dice, then so do Spore Mines with their 3+2d6. Meltabombs are easy to figure out; people are just scared their Monoliths can have their worlds rocked. Other people are still focused on an RAI interpretation, which is meaningless in a tourney, and is irrelevant in a friendly game.

 

In a friendly game, I'll dice off with the opponent, or just let it slide. Why do I care?

 

In a tourney? Your asscannon is grasscannon.