Melta bombs and Monoliths

[Steelmage99]

Grenades have no strength value. They are different from weapons of both a shooting and close-combat variety.

 

A ) They are wargear, not weapons.

 

Not that these two terms are mutually exclusive at all, but ok. A given object can be both a weapon and a piece of wargear.

 

B ) They have no strength value, period. In fact, where one would assume they'd see strength, it actually says 'Armor Penetration'.

 

yes.

 

C ) There is precedent, and the precedent could be argued, but has been clarified by errata. (RE: Spore Mines.)

 

ok. Your point being?

 

D ) Rules as Intended would seem to indicate a meltabomb wouldn't get the 2d6. However, in a tourney, I don't care about RAI.

 

I agree.

 

E ) Rules as written state no 'bonus dice' to armor penetration. We already clearly see that in some cases, 2d6 is not a bonus, but simply a base value for what is rolled. The 4, 6, and 8 which come with Frag, Krak, and Melta Bombs are not strength values; if they were, they would function on enemy models also. They have no strength value. Frag grenades are even used in an assault, and do no damage. Therefore, Grenades also sometimes have two different 'functions' depending on situation, similar to Spore Mines; I.E., they are Strength 3 AP3 on models, and S3+2d6 on vehicles.

(If you really want to be silly and point out that GW claims grenades function in assault, and are 'imagined' to do damage on the charge, why then do Marines still lose their charging attack when they charge defensive grenade troopers, but still use their base initiative, indicating the grenades performed their function. I'm well aware that 'use your imagination' is not a rule, but I wanted to pander to the straw-graspers.)

 

This is where it all starts to fall apart. Which cases do you refer to? Those that are specifically spelled out, right? And the fact that melta bombs isn't specifically spelled out doesn't tell you anything?

 

F ) If you already have errata clarifying a similar point, you don't need more errata to clarify the same point in a different codex.

 

Really? I tend to disagree. An errata concerning one codex have no impact on another codex.

 

What you can take away from this (once again), is that, due to poor wording, meltabombs should, by RAW, get 8+2d6 on a monolith, with no AP1 value. These are not bonus dice, because the grenade has no strength value against anything, and cannot be used ON anything besides vehicles. Bonus dice are defined. We already know that a Monstrous Creature rolls S+2d6 on vehicles, and only uses 1d6 on enemy models. The bonus comes when applied to vehicles. Meltabombs are BETTER at killing vehicles, but do not have a 'bonus', because they never, in any other situation, roll anything besides 8+2d6. If they do count as bonus dice, then so do Spore Mines with their 3+2d6. Meltabombs are easy to figure out; people are just scared their Monoliths can have their worlds rocked. Other people are still focused on an RAI interpretation, which is meaningless in a tourney, and is irrelevant in a friendly game.

 

The amount of assumptions, ramblings and irrelevant observations in this section is simply staggering. I simply don't know where to begin.

 

In a friendly game, I'll dice off with the opponent, or just let it slide. Why do I care?

 

In a tourney? Your asscannon is grasscannon.

[nighthawks]

"normal" armour penetration is S+1D6, as in the BRB P60

"...grenades have the following armour penetration:... melta bombs, 8+2D6" on P63. they do not have a strength characteristic, only an AP value.

 

bonuses die to armour penetration are not rolled (turbo penetrator excluded) and ordinance has a higher of 2, so is also excluded. Also, from C:Necrons, page 21, "living metal:" In practice, any weapon attacking the monolith will roll for armour penetration using its unaugmented strength and a single D6 no matter what."

 

8+2D6 for a melta bomb has no extra or bonus die, no strength value, so it suffers no penalty against living metal.

 

You are reaching, Nighthawks. Really reaching.

 

Let me see if I get this right. You argue that Melta Bombs, indeed all grenades, have a strength of 0 and an armour penetration of X + YD6. In the case of Melta Bombs this is 8 + 2D6. So the armour penetration roll is 0 + (8 + 2D6).

 

But following the quote you present we get the following armour penetration; Unargumented strength + 1D6 (no matter what). You argue that grenades all have strength 0, so the result is an armour penetration roll of 0 + 1D6.

 

I this what you mean? Because it is certainly what you say.

 

grenades work differently. you may twist my intent and words all you like - as I have said many times, I always loose this thread, but I never loose it on facts, just beliefs. and yo uknow what they say about beliefs.

 

grenades appear, by their AP value structure, to have an inherant S chracter. indeed, it makes sense that a ranged melta weapon and a melta bomb grenade should have the same S and armour pen bonus - and they do, IF you read it as such. BUT as grenades DON'T have a Strength, then the relationship is merely a happy coincidence.

 

the hole in the argument is this: grenades have AP of X+ND6. weapons with a S value have an AP of S+1D6 and some bonuses apply. those bonus don't apply to the monolith. the rule says nothing that relates to grenades as they do not get a "bonus" or "extra" die - they always have the AP printed in the BBB. this is not a stretch, nor is it that complicated.

 

I agree, btw, with your belief that the grenades work like ranged weapons (S+D6) in theory, btw - but the rules do not, so I follow the rules like a good little boy.

[Kadaeux]

You know there is another way of looking at it.

 

Melta bombs don't work against Monoliths because they ARE a penetration bonus for the Space Marine character. :PB)

[Steelmage99]

Hey, Nighthawks.

 

First I need to know if the quote you present from the Necron Codex, page 21 is correct?

 

Is this what it says; "living metal:" In practice, any weapon attacking the monolith will roll for armour penetration using its unaugmented strength and a single D6 no matter what."?

 

I am the owner of an ole skool Necron Codex, so I am wondering if the wording has changed.

[nighthawks]

that's what mine says - second printing.

[with an iron fist]

Stick a banana in it's tail pipe.

 

I think they took the rules out for the Monolith tail pipe in 4e.

[maniclurker]

Stick a banana in it's tail pipe.

 

I think they took the rules out for the Monolith tail pipe in 4e.

I hate both of you... Dr. Pepper burns when it comes out of your nose.

 

nighthawks- If the crondex says that, in practice, you'll only get unmodified strength plus d6 penetration... wouldn't that mean you get 0 for unmodified strength, and a single d6. You said yourself that it makes no mention of grenades having a strength.

[SeattleDV8]

And as everyone agrees the Necrons rules are ....poo

unmodified strength was power fist 4+d6 now is 8 + D6 : turbo pen rounds are 3D6 , but melta bombs are 8+D6

FEH ...no logic or consistency in the rulings

[Disistablishmentarianism]

I think nighthawks is trying to say that the melta bomb is an exception to the rule of S + D6, seeing as it's given it's own set of rules for armour penetration 8 + 2D6. It is my belief, however, that it will still only ever get the 1D6 because it would be silly if everything else wasn't allowed to use modified strength values and bonus die but this one oversight is, making one of the most pain in the neck vehicles easy (8 + 2D6 versus 8 + D6, from only ever glancing to viable to destroy, using the average roll of 7 on 2D6) to destroy, provided you have access to melta bombs.

 

no logic or consistency in the rulings

Never try introduce logic into the world of warhammer 40,000. Have I introduced you to my friend the land raider?

[maniclurker]

Agreed on stupid crondex rules. Much simplification is required there. And living metal... is just one of the crappiest rules ever thought out.

[angronn]

Just as pointing out another incidental dissimilarity between melta bombs and melta weapons (ranged) - the bombs don't get +1 to the damage table. So saying "it's melta, so it is a bonus die" doesn't fly, because they aren't getting the melta advantage to go with the disadvantage.

 

Not conclusive, but another pointer towards Nighthawk's RAW interpretation, to my mind.

 

Also, don't forget that alongside the spore mine precedent, the Turbo-penetrator proves that the "in practice" statement about a single D6 isn't 100% accurate. Alongside the RAW AP = 8+2D6 (standard, specifically NOT bonus), how can you use the "in practice" statement to disprove melta bombs having 2D6?

[Steelmage99]

Look at it like this;

 

The general rule in the rulebook, page 67 state that a disembarking unit cannot assault out of a non-open topped vehicle if the vehicle moved before disembarking.

The specific rule in the SM Codex, page 81 state that Assault Vehicles are excempt from this rule.

 

SM Codex wins.

 

The general rule in the rulebook, page 95 state that a deep striking unit that lands within 1" of an enemy model, in impassable terrain, off table or on top of a friendly model roll on the Deep Strike Mishap Table.

The specific rule in the SM Codex, page 69 state that Drop Pods reduce the distance scattered to avoid impassable terrain or any model (friend or foe).

 

SM Codex wins.

 

The general rule in the rulebook, page 63 state that Melta Bombs roll 8 + 2D6 for armour penetration.

The specific rule in the Necron Codex, page 21 state that living metal:" In practice, any weapon attacking the monolith will roll for armour penetration using its unaugmented strength and a single D6 no matter what."

 

Necron Codex wins.

 

Codex trumps Rulebook.

Specific trumps General.

 

Addendum: It doesn't matter if we believe that Melta Bombs have a strength of 8 and roll an extra D6 for AP, or a strength of 0 and special AP of 8 + 2D6.

The end result is the same as the Necron Codex says that only 1 D6 is ever rolled.

[WarpSpawn]

I think you've got that backwards. The 'cron book is generalising in saying only 1 D6 is typically ever rolled. The melta bomb rules are being specific in stating their own armour penetration. If you want to get into specific v general, the bombs win that round.

 

Also, it has already been shown to be false that only 1 D6 is ever rolled, as the example of turbo penetrator has been cited.

[Steelmage99]

No, Warpspawn. You got that all wrong.

 

And even if you were right (which you are not), you would still be stuck with fact that Codex trumps rulebook.

 

But hey, if you feel like rolling 8 + 2D6, then just remember not to assault out of Land Raiders too.

[angronn]

You did ignore the Turbo Penetrator point, however. By your logic, the TP should only roll 1D6.

[Steelmage99]

Correct. Unless FAQed or Errataed the Turbo-penetrator only rolls 1 D6.

 

Here we run into an interesting situation. On a roll of 6 the Turbo Penetrator Rends, thus adding D3. But as Codex trumps Rulebook, it won't get to roll the additional D3.

 

This is of course assuming I haven't missed an FAQ somewhere (which can happen).

[Kadaeux]

Except you're all missing that the Turbo-penetrator is cited as one the only exceptions other than ordnance.

[angronn]

Except you're all missing that the Turbo-penetrator is cited as one the only exceptions other than ordnance.

 

I haven't missed that. My point is that the "in practice" statement already has exceptions, so it can't be used to rule out melta bombs having 8+2D6 AP.

[Kadaeux]

Except you're all missing that the Turbo-penetrator is cited as one the only exceptions other than ordnance.

 

I haven't missed that. My point is that the "in practice" statement already has exceptions, so it can't be used to rule out melta bombs having 8+2D6 AP.

 

Wrong, the Turbo-penetrators and Ordnance are STATED to be the only exceptions.

 

Also as I said, they couldn't be used anyway as they are extra penetration dice for the space marine carrying them replacing his normal attack. :rolleyes:

[Disistablishmentarianism]

Agreed on stupid crondex rules. Much simplification is required there. And living metal... is just one of the crappiest rules ever thought out.

I think it's a cool rule, annoying but cool. The wording, however, is just... indescribably... uggh.

 

You can argue all you want, but it'll still boil down to beliefs (RAI might win one here :lol:), FAQs/Errata and/or rage quitting.

[Steelmage99]

Is the Turbo Penetrator mentioned in the Living Metal Rule? (Again I have the ole skool Necron dex and wordings have changed)

[Kadaeux]

Is the Turbo Penetrator mentioned in the Living Metal Rule? (Again I have the ole skool Necron dex and wordings have changed)

 

Mine doesn't mention it either.

[Steelmage99]

Thanks, Kadaeux.

Can you tell me where the Turbo Penetrator is stated as being an exception?

[Kadaeux]

Thanks, Kadaeux.

Can you tell me where the Turbo Penetrator is stated as being an exception?

 

I beleive it was in one of the FAQs. I KNOW i've read it I just can't remember where. (Because if we're wrong Turbo-penetrators have no effect either!)

[Steelmage99]

That's where I am at. I can't find it in any of the FAQs. And as such the Turbo Penetrator only rolls a single D6.