Melta bombs and Monoliths

[Frosty the Pyro]

the "In practice, any weapon attacking the Monolith will roll for armour penetration using its unaugmented strength and a single D6 no matter what" is the most recent version of the codex (I did manage to get my way to my LGS, then forgot about this thread).

 

That said, the term "in practice" means its a rule of thumb, not a rule, and so it still does not help clear anything up.

[lesdiablesrouge]

I know the discussions an old one and it may not be picked up again but thought i'd chip my 2 cents in ............... I have discussed this point with my fellow gamers and with games workshop staff. Put simply melta bombs still get 2D6 armour pentration as stated earlier it is not a strength value, which is why the can not be used on none armour value models ............ it isn't the strength of a bomb/grenade that does the damage its whether they can crack the armour and break the darn thing into peices. That is why they can't be used against fexes for example ....... although i'd love it if you could. Weapons ..... and i mean actual wepaons ...... not grenades/bombs (which are strapped to the dam thing) relly on their strength to penetrate the armour & this is where the livinng metal absorbs part of that strength to minimise the AP of a melta weapon at half range ....... therefore losing the extra die

[Legatus]

And here I thought grenades could not be used in combat against non-vehicles because the rules did not explain how they would work in such a case. Actually, in the last Codex Space Marines the Tyranid Hunters were able to use Krak grenades in combat against all models, only getting one attack and hiting on 6's, with a Strengt of (surprise!) 6.

 

On the same page where the armour penetration values of grenades are listed, it explains that armour penetration against vehicles works just like with shooting: By rolling a D6 and adding the weapon's strength. And then, instead of describing that krak grenades have a "Strength of 6" and that melta bombs have "Strength 8 and the Melta special rule" they go ahead and list the armour penetration value directly.

[Steelmage99]

I know the discussions an old one and it may not be picked up again but thought i'd chip my 2 cents in ............... I have discussed this point with my fellow gamers and with games workshop staff......

 

And thats where I stopped reading.

[lesdiablesrouge]

Exactly that was in the last edition ............. what stops you from consolidating into another combat/unit ....... because your guys are too lazy now to be bothered or because they scrapped that in the new ed. Theres no point going back to the last ed, or the one before that, GW just make up a load of new ***stuf*** because otherwise nobody would buy the new RB. The point is it says you don't get the additional die for melta weapons (half range) just the standard amount. The standard amount for a 'melta' bomb is 2D6.

 

Does it actually say you don't get any additional AP D6 or does it say only 1D6 may be rolled for AP from any attack

[Captain Malachi]

It says only one dice, this is why I don't see the confusion. Like it or not the last bit of the rule says you only get one dice.

[Grey Mage]

Well another question would be... whats half range for a meltabomb?

[DevianID]

It says only one dice, this is why I don't see the confusion. Like it or not the last bit of the rule says you only get one dice

 

it says strength + 1d6. since you advocate that this applies in all cases, then meltabombs (which have no strength) roll [null]+1d6 versus monoliths?

 

OR you can apply the rule to read 'When rolling an attack with strength, versus monoliths you only ever roll Str + 1d6.' This is how almost everyone here who is in favor of 2d6 meltabombs reads the rule, as attacks without a strength (melta bombs, vindicare turbo penetrator, bio acid mines, ect) have no bonus dice to their strength, in fact they have no strength at all, thus they CAN NEVER roll 1d6 plus Strength. And strength 0 is different than [null] strength, for the record.

 

Edit: I figured I would list a few more attacks that use [null] strength--Wraithguard Wraith Cannons have [null] strength. Haywire Grenades also have [null] strength versus vehicles. Tau have EMP grenades with [null] strength. Evisor Assassian's gauntlet hits vehicles with [null] strength. In each case, the weapons with [null] strength use a different set of rules for determining whether a glance or pen is achieved. Some roll a d6 and consult a chart, some roll a value and consult the armor of the vehicle. To say that one [null] strength attack is nullified by living metal (melta bombs) means that all [null] strength weapons are nullified (Wraith Guns); and I dont see anyone arguing that Wraith Guns dont use their special rule to penetrate a monolith.

[lesdiablesrouge]

Devils advocate on my previous posts tonight as i have had an ongoing battle with a nec player who told me a few mins ago:

 

Not sure if this will help, but the Forgeworld rules for a Necron Pylon in Imperial Armour seem to make it a bit clearer. According to those, a pylon has the same living metal rules as the monolith, but the description gives the example that a meltagun, multi melta or a melta bomb loses its second dice for armour penetration regardless of being within half range etc. i.e. they are all strength +1d6 (not sure if i was allowed to put strength value, so haven't)

 

Now you just need to decide if that example applies to the ordinary GW wording or just the Forgeworld rules

 

What do people think??????

[Legatus]

it says strength + 1d6. since you advocate that this applies in all cases, then meltabombs (which have no strength) roll [null]+1d6 versus monoliths?

Normally, all attacks roll Strength + D6 for armour penetration. Melta weapons roll an additional die within short range. You can pretend that you don't recognize that same game mechanic in the Krak Grenade's 6+D6 and the Meltabombs 8+2D6 armour penetration roll, but I wouldn't beleive you. I think you can determine the "Strength" of a Melta Bomb without GW having to spell it out for you.

 

I figured I would list a few more attacks that use [null] strength--Wraithguard Wraith Cannons have [null] strength. Haywire Grenades also have [null] strength versus vehicles. Tau have EMP grenades with [null] strength. Evisor Assassian's gauntlet hits vehicles with [null] strength. In each case, the weapons with [null] strength use a different set of rules for determining whether a glance or pen is achieved. Some roll a d6 and consult a chart, some roll a value and consult the armor of the vehicle.

In each of the specific cases you mentioned above (Wraithcannon, Haywite Grenades, EMP Grenades, Neuro-Gauntlet) there is no comparative roll with the attacks strength against the vehicle's armour value, so it is not really an armour penetration roll. The weapon will have a certain effect, depending on a fixed die roll. With other weapons, there may not be any roll at all, such as the Space Marine power "Machine Curse", which will inflict an automatic glancing hit if the shooting attack hits. Since there is no armour penetration roll for these attacks, I would say it is not affected by the Monolith's rules.

[DevianID]

You can pretend that you don't recognize that same game mechanic in the Krak Grenade's 6+D6 and the Meltabombs 8+2D6 armour penetration roll, but I wouldn't beleive you

 

Krak grenades also do not have a str. There was a unit that had a special rule allowing them to make 1 S6 power weapon attack that hit on a 6+, because of special training with krak grenades. However, even that did not give krak grenades a strength attack versus vehicles. Thus, there have never been Str values for armor pen for grenades, krak included.

 

Also, you can draw conclusions on melta guns and melta bombs, in that the st8 from a melta gun must correspond to the 8 for melta bombs 8+2d6. However, like bio acid mines that are s3 versus infantry and 3+2d6 versus vehicles, they make a clear distinction that despite the number being the same, it is still not strength. Thus, it is not possible to determine what the strength of a melta bomb is, because a melta bomb does not have a strength. To make a melta bomb s8 means you are adding a house rule--which is fine, but only when both players agree.

 

[in re: to other [null] weapons] The weapon will have a certain effect, depending on a fixed die roll

 

How are melta bombs, which have a certain effect depending on a fixed roll of 2d6+8, different?

[Legatus]

From p. 60:

 

Armour Penetration

(...) Once a hit has been scored on a vehicle, roll a D6 and add the weapon's Strength to it, comparing this total with the Armour Value of the appropriate facing of th evehicle.

 

From p. 63:

 

Armour penetration in close combat

Armour Penetration is worked out in the same way as for shooting (D6 + the Strength of the attacker)

 

Also from p. 63:

 

Against vehicles, grenades have the following armour penetration: Krak Grenades - 6+D6

 

The shooting rules tell you that armour penetration is D6 + Strength. The close combat rules tell you that armour penetration is D6 + Strength. Krak Grenades are described as having 6+D6 armour penetration.

 

If armour penetration is D6+Strength, and if Krak grenades have armour penetration D6+6, then you can easily deduce from that that krak grenades have a "Strength" of 6.

 

How are melta bombs, which have a certain effect depending on a fixed roll of 2d6+8, different?

Melta bombs do not have an effect on a fixed die roll. Shooting with a Wraithcannon at a Rhino or a Land Raider makes no difference, the required roll is the same. That is not true for Meltabombs or Krak Grenades.

[Grey Mage]

You can pretend that you don't recognize that same game mechanic in the Krak Grenade's 6+D6 and the Meltabombs 8+2D6 armour penetration roll, but I wouldn't beleive you

 

Krak grenades also do not have a str. There was a unit that had a special rule allowing them to make 1 S6 power weapon attack that hit on a 6+, because of special training with krak grenades. However, even that did not give krak grenades a strength attack versus vehicles. Thus, there have never been Str values for armor pen for grenades, krak included.

 

Also, you can draw conclusions on melta guns and melta bombs, in that the st8 from a melta gun must correspond to the 8 for melta bombs 8+2d6. However, like bio acid mines that are s3 versus infantry and 3+2d6 versus vehicles, they make a clear distinction that despite the number being the same, it is still not strength. Thus, it is not possible to determine what the strength of a melta bomb is, because a melta bomb does not have a strength. To make a melta bomb s8 means you are adding a house rule--which is fine, but only when both players agree.

 

[in re: to other [null] weapons] The weapon will have a certain effect, depending on a fixed die roll

 

How are melta bombs, which have a certain effect depending on a fixed roll of 2d6+8, different?

 

Whats half range for a meltabomb?

[Seahawk]

If armour penetration is D6+Strength, and if Krak grenades have armour penetration D6+6, then you can easily deduce from that that krak grenades have a "Strength" of 6.

One could also easily conclude that the armor penetration is D6 plus a minimum value of 6, giving you a value of 7-12 without a strength bonus, etc. Grenades are just that powerful or whatever.

[Steelmage99]

The armour penetration of Melta Bombs are determined by the general rule in the rulebook.

The specific "Living Metal" rule is presented in a codex.

 

1. Specific overrides general.

2. Codex overrides rulebook.

 

Codex says; "Living Metal (2.):" In practice, any weapon attacking the monolith will roll for armour penetration using its unaugmented strength and a single D6 no matter what (1.)."

 

Either you say; "Melta Bombs has no strength, only a special kind of armour penetration", and end up with 0 (unargumented strength) + (8 + D6, due to 1.).

 

OR

 

"I'll fudge it a bit. Its 8 (unargumented strength) + D6, due to 1.

 

The effect is the same. Against Living metal you roll D6 and adds 8.

Aren't we done with this already?

[sniperhavens]

Kill Warriors.

 

Truth, go for phase out and you won't have to worry about Monoliths.

 

 

What is phase out?

[Pinky Narfanet]

Phase Out is a special rule in the Necron Codex. If Necron player loses enough Necron models (non-Monolith, non-Tomb Spyder, non-Pariah, Non-Scarabs) so that the Phase Out number is reached, then the Necron player loses.

[eyescrossed]

Kill Warriors.

 

Truth, go for phase out and you won't have to worry about Monoliths.

 

 

What is phase out?

Read the Necron codex.

If you wipe out 75% of the Necrons in a Necron force, they instantly lose.

[Legatus]

Whats half range for a meltabomb?

If you want to be technical, half of 0 (i.e. contact) is 0. :D

 

One could also easily conclude that the armor penetration is D6 plus a minimum value of 6, giving you a value of 7-12 without a strength bonus, etc. Grenades are just that powerful or whatever.

Frag Renades have armour penetration 4+D6. Melta Bombs have 8+2D6. You cannot make any conclusion on a general basic armour penetration bonus for grenades.

 

Codex says; "Living Metal (2.):" In practice, any weapon attacking the monolith will roll for armour penetration using its unaugmented strength and a single D6 no matter what (1.)."

 

Either you say; "Melta Bombs has no strength, only a special kind of armour penetration", and end up with 0 (unargumented strength) + (8 + D6, due to 1.).

Your example does not use unaugmented strength and a single D6. If meltabombs really have no strength value, then they will roll 0+D6 for armour penetration against a monolith.

[DevianID]

Your example does not use unaugmented strength and a single D6. If meltabombs really have no strength value, then they will roll 0+D6 for armour penetration against a monolith.

Legatus, I agree with you here... if melta bombs have [null] strength then they clearly would not use the str+1d6 formula.

I take it you are in the camp that grenades and meltabombs do have a strength, though.

However, if the following quote

Armour Penetration is worked out in the same way as for shooting (D6 + the Strength of the attacker)

is what you use to deduce that krak grenades have a base strength of 6 (for a total of 6+1d6), then wouldnt melta bombs have a base strength of 8+1d6 (for a total of 8+2d6) per your logic? And since 8+1d6 is their base strength, and you roll Str + 1d6 against a monolith, then melta bombs would still roll 8+2d6 versus a monolith. I am just trying to point out that trying to assign a strength to grenades is futile... they are not strength-based attacks.

 

as a PS

Melta bombs do not have an effect on a fixed die roll. Shooting with a Wraithcannon at a Rhino or a Land Raider makes no difference, the required roll is the same. That is not true for Meltabombs or Krak Grenades.

The fixed die roll is 2d6+8. For some of the other [null] strength weapons it may be a single d6. In both cases, you compare the result of the die roll to target numbers to determine if you get a glance or a pen. The fact that one refrences the vehicles armor value for its target numbers doesnt mean it is not a [null] strength attack. See the biovore FAQ for proof that [null] strength attacks that refrence the target's armor indeed do not use a strength.

[Legatus]

is what you use to deduce that krak grenades have a base strength of 6 (for a total of 6+1d6), then wouldnt melta bombs have a base strength of 8+1d6 (for a total of 8+2d6) per your logic? And since 8+1d6 is their base strength, and you roll Str + 1d6 against a monolith, then melta bombs would still roll 8+2d6 versus a monolith. I am just trying to point out that trying to assign a strength to grenades is futile... they are not strength-based attacks.

Writing

 

"Meltabombs - 8+2D6"

 

is shorter than

 

"Meltabombs roll an additional die for armour penetration, for a total armour penetration of 8+2D6"

 

And would it honestly be necessary to point out that melta bombs use more dice than usual, instead of simply listing their total armour penetration value with that added die?

 

We have been introduced to "Melta" weapons and their special effect on page 32. I would expect anyone looking at "Melta bombs" with their 8+2D6 armour penetration listed on page 63 to be able to recognize and associate something with that name.

 

The fixed die roll is 2d6+8. For some of the other [null] strength weapons it may be a single d6. In both cases, you compare the result of the die roll to target numbers to determine if you get a glance or a pen. The fact that one refrences the vehicles armor value for its target numbers doesnt mean it is not a [null] strength attack. See the biovore FAQ for proof that [null] strength attacks that refrence the target's armor indeed do not use a strength.

Appearently I wasn't really successful in describing attacks that inflict damage to vehicles on a certain set die roll with a comprehensive term.

 

Wraithcannons, Haywire Grenades, EMP Grenades and Neuro-Gauntlets will allways inflict damage on the same result of a die roll. The vehicles armour is completely irrelevant to that. It is not a roll against the vehicles armour value as the threshold that needs to be beaten.

 

That is not the case for Melta Bombs, which will have to beat the vehicles armour save with their armour penetration roll, just like any other regular weapon would. They will not inflict damage to vehicles on a set die roll independently of the vehicles armour.

 

Biovore Bio Acid mines have a Strength of 3. As a special rule, they roll 2D6+3 for armour penetration against vehicles. That is not an uncommon special rule for weapons that are effective against armour. Someone who wrote that question for the FaQ got confused, and asked that since the "Strength" of Bio Acid mines against vehicles is 2D6+3 (which is incorrect, that is the armour penetration value, not the Strength), whether that total value is then halved if the template hole would not cover a vehicle. The answer, obviously being confused by the questioner's assertion that the Bio Acid mine has a Strength of 2D6+3 (which it doesn't) then was that no, that value is not halved but allways applied in full. Neither the questioner nor the person answering the question have understood what the Strength of a Bio Acid spore mine is.

And as I was pointing out previously, even if you do accept that particular clueless FaQ entry as legitimate, that does not change the fact that Bio Acid spore mines do have a Strength value of 3, and as per the Monolith's rules would use Strentgth+D6 for armour penetration instead of their special armour penetration rules.

[DevianID]

I guess the problem is that you dont accept certian things in the game, which is fine, to each there own.

 

But if asked about official rules only, then saying that the faq doesnt count for example, makes it kinda hard to come to an official answer, cause the official sources I draw on for proof you discount...

Also, if you are assuming that the melta bomb's 8+2d6 includes strength 8 plus a bonus die, when no rule is written to that effect that 8 is a strength or the 2d6 includes a bonus die, that also makes determining the official RAW tough--cause I point to the fact that melta bombs are not strength based weapons per RAW, and you discount that and instead give them a strength.

 

If you were to take the rules at face value only, without discounting anything like bio acid mines, would your opinion on living metal change? Do you play that vindicare turbo penetrators roll 3d6 versus a monolith?

[Legatus]

But if asked about official rules only, then saying that the faq doesnt count for example, makes it kinda hard to come to an official answer, cause the official sources I draw on for proof you discount...

I pointed out the flaw in that FaQ question. It asserts a rule that is wrong, and then asks a question based on that rule. The answer is directed at that asserted rule, without correcting it. You can verify that a Bio Acid spore mine does not have a "Strength" of 2D6+3 for yourself if you have access to a Codex Tyranids.

 

Also, if you are assuming that the melta bomb's 8+2d6 includes strength 8 plus a bonus die, when no rule is written to that effect that 8 is a strength or the 2d6 includes a bonus die, that also makes determining the official RAW tough--cause I point to the fact that melta bombs are not strength based weapons per RAW, and you discount that and instead give them a strength.

There is a whole family of "melta" weapons that all have Strength 8 and roll 2D6 for armour penetration withing short range, so I find the claim that "melta bombs" that roll 8+2D6 for armour penetration can not in any way be associated with that family of weapons if the rules are not specifically pointing it out not all that reasonable. Do the rules [/i]say[/i] that the 8 is the "Strength" and the 2D6 is 1D6 more than normal? No, they don't. Can we still recognise the exact game mechanics? I would like to think that we can.

 

Do you play that vindicare turbo penetrators roll 3d6 versus a monolith?

No. Sniper Rifles have a Strength of 3. Rolling 3D6 (instead of the 2D6 it originally was in 4th Edition) is a special rule for armour penetration, which the Monolith specifically adresses and negates. The Vindicare's sniper rifle rolls 3+D6 for armour penetration against the Monolith, and he better not waste the Turbo Penetrator against it. Though, fighting Necrons there probably wont be any other vehicles around.

[DevianID]

Rolling 3D6 (instead of the 2D6 it originally was in 4th Edition) is a special rule for armour penetration, which the Monolith specifically adresses and negates.

 

3d6 is not bonus dice nor a strength attack, and at one point the Necron FAQ even mentioned the 3d6 applied. If the monolith's special rule negates any attack's special rule that does not roll unmodified strength + 1d6, like you say it does with the turbo penetrator, why do you say wraith cannons still work, as they also have a special rule to roll something other than unmodified str + 1d6.

[Legatus]

3d6 is not bonus dice

Sniper Rifles used to roll 2D6 for armour penetration (without any other strengthvalue, so you could say that the strength of the shot was a random D6). The turbo penetrator did 3D6 instead. I would say it has an additional die.

 

If the monolith's special rule negates any attack's special rule that does not roll unmodified strength + 1d6, like you say it does with the turbo penetrator, why do you say wraith cannons still work, as they also have a special rule to roll something other than unmodified str + 1d6.

Because those weapons do not roll for armour penetration at all. You roll a die to see whether the weapon can unfold it's effect, which it will do completely independently from whatever armour value the vehicle may have. It is not a roll against th evehicles armour, so the monolith rules will not affect it. From a fluff point of view, these weapons affect the vehicle's crew or the systems (or, in case of the Wraithcannon, reality). They do not rely on breaching the armour plating to do any harm.

 

and at one point the Necron FAQ even mentioned the 3d6 applied.

It doesn't anymore, and the monolith rules have been updated since then. And as I have suggested earlier, I can only assume that the person answering that FaQ has asserted that the turbo penetrator has a randomly rolled "strength" of 2D6, plus the regular D6 for armour penetration, which would have led to a legal 3D6 roll for armour penetration against the Monolith. Sniper Rifles used to roll 2D6 for armour penetration, so it seems they had a randomly generated Strength of D6, and otehr than what the FaQ asserted, it rolled an additional die for armour penetration, just like most of the anti-armour weapons do. But Sniper Rifles have changed now. Now they have 3+D6 armour penetration, with the chance for an additional D3 because of 'rending'. Which they won't get against a monolith.