minigun762 Posted December 6, 2008 Share Posted December 6, 2008 I am toying with the idea of building up a small Daemons army, to put along side my Chaos Marines in Apocalypse. They have what appears to be some truly awesome infantry killing power but I'm noticing a disturbing lack of solid anti-tank units. Against the lighter stuff (Rhinos, Chimeras etc) you can usually bust them with Bloodletters or Daemonettes as S5 or Rending against AV10 will work for you. But how are people taking out Land Raiders or Monoliths, or even Ironclad Dreads? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/154223-daemons-anti-tank/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Malachi Posted December 6, 2008 Share Posted December 6, 2008 MCs, bolt of tzeentch, soulgrinders, not that difficult to take out really, monolith is annoying, but the others are fairly easy, it's hordes we have real trouble with. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/154223-daemons-anti-tank/#findComment-1798640 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted December 6, 2008 Author Share Posted December 6, 2008 MCs, bolt of tzeentch, soulgrinders, not that difficult to take out really, monolist is annoying, but the others are fairly easy, it's hordes we have real trouble with. Really? Hmm. I figured we'd just out assault most any army we came across as pretty much everything is awesome in the assault phase. I can see the negative of having just an Inv save though, can only absorb alot less random small attacks. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/154223-daemons-anti-tank/#findComment-1798647 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Malachi Posted December 6, 2008 Share Posted December 6, 2008 The problem with hordes is there's just so many of them, we can't kll them fast enough, though daemonettes do help a lot with that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/154223-daemons-anti-tank/#findComment-1798661 Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyescrossed Posted December 6, 2008 Share Posted December 6, 2008 Maybe I should put some daemonettes in my army... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/154223-daemons-anti-tank/#findComment-1798676 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted December 6, 2008 Author Share Posted December 6, 2008 Well the army I was thinking of making would be a Slaanesh/Tzeentch army, so maybe thats why I wasn't too worried about the horde, between all the Warp Fire and Rending, I figure everything would go down. In my case, I was stuck relying on a pair of Soulgrinders for all of my Anti-tank, and that seemed small to me. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/154223-daemons-anti-tank/#findComment-1798735 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Malachi Posted December 6, 2008 Share Posted December 6, 2008 A couple if Tzeentchian princes with bolt would be a good alternative to 'grinders, and they don't need any other upgrades past MoTz and bolt. A LoC wouldn't be a bad investment though. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/154223-daemons-anti-tank/#findComment-1798748 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vassakov Posted December 6, 2008 Share Posted December 6, 2008 If you can get it into CC, a Herald of Khorne with a Juggernought, Unholy Might and Fury of Khorne will charge with 5 S7 Rending attacks, and is only 135pts. That'll hurt anything, not just tanks. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/154223-daemons-anti-tank/#findComment-1798786 Share on other sites More sharing options...
==Me== Posted December 7, 2008 Share Posted December 7, 2008 Daemon anti-tank is rather limited outside of simply smashing it up in HtH, but we get by. Bolt of Tzeentch: It's a melta without the melta rule and a longer range, so it can potentially pop a Land Raider (6 to glance, 6 to wreck). Decent range, assault weapon keeps it mobile. On Princes and the LoC it is BS5 so almost a guaranteed hit, which is nice for a single shot weapon. On Heralds and the Scribes it isn't as automatic but still very reliable with BS4. For Horrors and Flamers (never use it on Flamers, you could simply buy another for the cost) it is a 50/50 shot, but Horrors have the upgrade cheap and it never hurts. Breath of Chaos: Always glances on a 4+, not bad if you want to keep tanks from shooting you. Phlegm: S8 is respectable, it's better against infantry but can hurt AV13 or lower vehicles in a pinch. Tongue: It's a railgun at BS3, awesome when it hits, but it's only a 50/50 shot. Death Strike: S7 is ok, but most Khorne units either have too low a BS (Herald), should be running or chopping anyway (BT), or shouldn't be on the field in the first place (DP). Screamers: The best anti-tank we've got to offer. Melta bombs attached to jetbikes can and will hit anything on the board. They are easy to take down however, so be careful. MCs: 2D6 pen is nothing to laugh at, even if you only have S5. Fiends: S5 and rending is a pretty combo. Seekers/Daemonettes: Rending is nice Bloodletters/Bloodcrushers/Flesh Hounds: High S against the rear armor works, but it will be tough to get them in combat. Flesh Hounds are very speedy however, so they can do better. Daemonic Gaze: An AP3 heavy bolter can do well against lighter vehicles. We're not as bad off as Orks are against heavy tanks, but it is something you have to work for. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/154223-daemons-anti-tank/#findComment-1798856 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sons of Horus Posted December 7, 2008 Share Posted December 7, 2008 may i suggest nurgle daemon princes :D if you pick the right options for them they should be as tough as a house and they'll be able to chew through armour as easily as they do through infantry. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/154223-daemons-anti-tank/#findComment-1798858 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redbaron997 Posted December 7, 2008 Share Posted December 7, 2008 Monstours Creaters are the Bane of tanks, my only worry is really for Skimmer, which are harder to hit (but usually easy to take down) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/154223-daemons-anti-tank/#findComment-1799001 Share on other sites More sharing options...
==Me== Posted December 7, 2008 Share Posted December 7, 2008 Monstours Creaters are the Bane of tanks, my only worry is really for Skimmer, which are harder to hit (but usually easy to take down) Actually, skimmers are now hit just like any other vehicle, so catching them becomes the main problem :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/154223-daemons-anti-tank/#findComment-1799007 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redbaron997 Posted December 7, 2008 Share Posted December 7, 2008 Monstours Creaters are the Bane of tanks, my only worry is really for Skimmer, which are harder to hit (but usually easy to take down) Actually, skimmers are now hit just like any other vehicle, so catching them becomes the main problem :P Really? Awesome! I did not know that. Well in that case just MC the crap outa them (but take unholy strength, its really helps on AT) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/154223-daemons-anti-tank/#findComment-1799035 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raptor1313 Posted December 7, 2008 Share Posted December 7, 2008 ACtually, since the Bolt of Tzeentch is AP1, we need a 4+ to wreck anything we hit with it on the damage rolls. It's just that pinning the thing will be the problem, and AV14 wants the 5+. Though yes...for anti-tank, we've got limits. The real issue is in shooting, though in melee exploding vehicles are still a worry. Shooting: Bolt of Tzeentch Comes on the Big Bird, comes in Horror squads (BS3) and comes on Heralds (BS4). I think that slapping it into a Horror unit is a good idea for the points, but it's also going to be a stop-gap measure. Big Bird can assault afterwards, and has a good shot of pulling it off. Phlegm S8, though the accuracy depends on the vehicle. I think we'd rather be hocking it at the troops, though. Tongue 50/50 shot, and you're giving up shooting Phelgm at troops. Death Strike I doubt a lot of people will run this; it doesn't really hit on Heralds of Khorne, and doesn't really see a lot of use on a Bloodthirster. Breath of Chaos ...while it CAN glance on a 4+, this is NOT an anti-tank weapon. In a pinch, we can spend Flamers on keeping vehicles from shooting, but this is a HUGE waste of their potential. Flamers should be making troops disappear, not shaking vehicles. Melee: Most assault troops can crank enough attacks to go into rear armor 10 and do a number on it. Mostly I'm looking at Bloodletters and Plageubearers, but Daemonettes are possibilities as well. Monstrous Creatures Hey. We have them. S6 + 2d6 = average of 13 on the penetration. On anything but AV14, we're pretty good, and other than Land Raiders and Monoliths, no one brings something with that kind of protection on their tail. Soul Grinders In a pinch, four S10 attacks aren't bad. They don't get the 2d6, but S10 is still pretty nasty. It ranges 11-16, probably an average of 13. About as effective as our MCs. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/154223-daemons-anti-tank/#findComment-1799125 Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyescrossed Posted December 7, 2008 Share Posted December 7, 2008 ACtually, since the Bolt of Tzeentch is AP1, we need a 4+ to wreck anything we hit with it on the damage rolls. It's just that pinning the thing will be the problem, and AV14 wants the 5+. No, if you glance the AV14, there's a minus 2 modifier, then plus 1 for AP1, so you need a 6 because it'll be minus 1. Monstrous CreaturesHey. We have them. S6 + 2d6 = average of 13 on the penetration. On anything but AV14, we're pretty good, and other than Land Raiders and Monoliths, no one brings something with that kind of protection on their tail. No, not good against monoliths, as nothing can use 2D6 to penetrate them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/154223-daemons-anti-tank/#findComment-1799170 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Malachi Posted December 7, 2008 Share Posted December 7, 2008 Yeah well the monolist is just broken, all but invincable to the best anti-tank most armies have access to and it costs less than a raider?! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/154223-daemons-anti-tank/#findComment-1799197 Share on other sites More sharing options...
==Me== Posted December 7, 2008 Share Posted December 7, 2008 Yeah well the monolist is just broken, all but invincable to the best anti-tank most armies have access to and it costs less than a raider?! It's tough, but hardly broken. It's the only Necron tank, uses up the same slots as Tomb Spyders (MCs and scarab factories, cover for everyone!) and Heavy Destroyers (their only high S, AP2 weapon) and phases out like everything else. Daemons wipe Necrons with contemptuous ease thanks to the abundance of power weapons and high I (running them down in combat completely disallows WBB), so Monos present us with even more opportunity to win sooner. If a Necron player brings a Monolith, kindly thank him. If be brings two, break out the champagne. If he brings 3, offer to buy him dinner afterwards. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/154223-daemons-anti-tank/#findComment-1799336 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redbaron997 Posted December 7, 2008 Share Posted December 7, 2008 Yeah well the monolist is just broken, all but invincable to the best anti-tank most armies have access to and it costs less than a raider?! It's tough, but hardly broken. It's the only Necron tank, uses up the same slots as Tomb Spyders (MCs and scarab factories, cover for everyone!) and Heavy Destroyers (their only high S, AP2 weapon) and phases out like everything else. Daemons wipe Necrons with contemptuous ease thanks to the abundance of power weapons and high I (running them down in combat completely disallows WBB), so Monos present us with even more opportunity to win sooner. If a Necron player brings a Monolith, kindly thank him. If be brings two, break out the champagne. If he brings 3, offer to buy him dinner afterwards. I agree I just laugh when I see 3 Monoliths, and its funny cause the necron player usually thinks they are gonna be all awesome and such. Nevertheless an assaulting soul grinder (or a soul grinder tongue) can bring down a monolith is not to much trouble, the only better equivalents being Swooping hawks and the Tau Railgun. Bringing one monolith is understandable, its a great vehicle. Bringing 2 or 3 is just making my job easier. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/154223-daemons-anti-tank/#findComment-1799366 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spaakl Daakli Posted December 8, 2008 Share Posted December 8, 2008 If a Necron player brings a Monolith, kindly thank him. If be brings two, break out the champagne. If he brings 3, offer to buy him dinner afterwards. ^_^ ;) :tu: :P :P :lol: Brilliant quote - but I bet you're a Slaaneshi player, huh? ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/154223-daemons-anti-tank/#findComment-1800379 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted December 8, 2008 Author Share Posted December 8, 2008 Most assault troops can crank enough attacks to go into rear armor 10 and do a number on it. Mostly I'm looking at Bloodletters and Plageubearers, but Daemonettes are possibilities as well. I was curious about if the Rending of Furious Charge would be better for smashing the rear armor on tanks. Turns out 10 Bloodletters will score about 5 glancing/penetrating hits on the charge while 10 Daemonettes will score 3.33. So both are fairly decent and actually go a long way to mitigating our need for anti-tank against slower weaker units (Rhinos, Leman Russ, Vindicator etc). That means its probably more correct to say that our dedicated Anti-Tank weapons should revolve around fast moving Skimmers (Falcons) and heavy armor (Land Raider). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/154223-daemons-anti-tank/#findComment-1800592 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raptor1313 Posted December 9, 2008 Share Posted December 9, 2008 With Falcons and Land Raiders, I think I'd worry more about what's in them, at times. Well, this applies more to falcons. They're BS3, and while we might be looking at Bright Lances, it's not many of them. Their cargo is generaly something nasty (but few in numbers), like Fire Dragons (...or whatever their meltagun nuts are) or Harlequins. I don't think we're that worried about Harlies. They get the initiative on us, but rending isn't what it used to be; our MCs have invulnerable saves, and so do our regular troops. As far as we're concerned, they're slightly amped up, more costly Daemonettes. As for the Fire DRagons...those are painful. However, once they pop out, just make sure we're in a position to assault them and the falcon. They'll maybe nail a big bad (they should have no problem popping a Soul Grinder, but a Greater Daemon might make enough saves to live through that) and then we assault them, and possibly the Falcon. The Land Raiders are a bit of a different story. Crusaders can do a number on any of our non-nurgle troops; especially if they get in close. About the only option we're likely to have is throw a Greater Daemon at it in assault. A Bloodthirster hits it 2.5 times, and on the charge (and with unholy might) he needs a 7 to penetrate it; and on 2d6, that's average. So he'll probably get little over one penetrating hit per. The downside is that assault a Crusader means we're in counterassault range for its cargo. Thunder Hammer/STorm Shield terminators, or Khornate chaos ones, are bad news for us. If we threw a soul grinder at the thing, it'll shrug off claws and power weapons, but hammers and the odd chainfist are problems for it. Mostly, the Land Raiders are a problem for us, and I don't know that we have an easy answer for it. People that are going Crusader-happy are going to pose some trouble for us if they brought big guns as well. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/154223-daemons-anti-tank/#findComment-1801184 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted December 9, 2008 Author Share Posted December 9, 2008 Mostly, the Land Raiders are a problem for us, and I don't know that we have an easy answer for it. People that are going Crusader-happy are going to pose some trouble for us if they brought big guns as well. Well the quick answer is Screamers. They're a bit of a waste against smaller vehicles, but Land Raiders are a worthwhile target. After that, I think you're right that Greater Daemons or Daemon Princes are the next best bet. You'll really have to be atleast S6 though to be viable, but thats not a concern really. Finally, Soul Grinders are good and Tongue is a nice shot but it takes 4 Tongue shots to get a glancing/penetrating hit which means that against a standard Land Raider, their LasCannons are going to knockout even 2 Soul Grinders before it dies probably. However against the more common Crusader, you could stay at 24" and snipe and only have to be worried about Rending shots off the Assault Cannon and the Multi-Melta if they took one. So basically Screamers > MCs > Soul Grinders Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/154223-daemons-anti-tank/#findComment-1801725 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Malachi Posted December 9, 2008 Share Posted December 9, 2008 Anti-raider? Definately screamers, or 2-3 MCs :lol: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/154223-daemons-anti-tank/#findComment-1801730 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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