What's the point of giving your troops bolters?

[Bradskey]

Well, since you cannot fire and charge with bolters, is it any point to even spend the extra points on bolters. I just think that Grey hunters and Blood Claws are combat specialists and don't see the point in being able to deny them that.

[LPetersson]

I pretty much agree with you on this.

 

But I suspect that since 5th ed C:SM marines have both BP and B by default, we'll probably have that as well when C:SW comes out...

 

Until then, occasional better fire support can be nice...

 

Edit:

Oh, and I normally put Ragnar in a GH unit in 1500 point games.

[Vash113]

Grey Hunters aren't necessarily best thrown at the enemy. Instead you set up a bolter trap, where you have several squads overlapping fire to simply use weight of fire to whittle down a foe. Then when the enemy gets close enough to charge you have the true grit and counter attack abilities to smack them down for their foolishness or can charge in and finish them off with qual proficiency. Blood Claws are the shock troops.

[hendrik]

look at it as a way to lessen the ammo pile;)it's getting to big and needs to be emptied;)

[Wolf89]

I would have to say 99.9999999% of the time my Grey Hunters have bolter/ccw. I have yet to loose with my wolves, so I must be doing something right... :wub:

[Megalodon]

I cannot imagine my Grey Hunters not having Bolters.

[jester262]

I do it as a just in case. As in just in case I happen to play against a nid army. I don't think it would be a very good idea to rush to them. With blters you can sit back and shoot at 24", BP's only have a 12" range. By that time it'd be too late.

[Grey Mage]

Because it adds a few things. Heres why I give 2/3 to 1/2 of my packs bolters:

 

1) After round one of combat it doesnt matter. True grit means they get two attacks anyways except on charge/countercharge... so Im missing out on a minimal amount of attacks over say four rounds. I do notice a difference but:

 

2) It lets me get double the shots on an enemy, and Im not worse of against most when they charge me. Against foes with furious charge I can still charge them if its more advantageous. Also:

 

3) I can stand and shoot 24"s with them. This means I can hold an objective, a building, or some other form of cover and reach out to support my more CC orient brethren. This is called "Fire support" and is absolutely nessecairy to win in my opinion. You wouldnt go to war without anti tank, its suicide.... so is going without fire support. And of course:

 

4) I dont have to choose. I can have a squad with bolters and still throw in a powerfist and/or powerweapon. In fact, I usually find the room to. Not to mention I can throw down a pack leader either way and with the proper kit he can enhance the squad anyways I see fit.

 

Wich is why I have bolter hunters. They rock.... grey hunters in general rock. And theres no reason not to take both.

[Bradskey]

but what about Blood Claws, they are THE combat troops, should they have bolters or just keep the pistols?

[Grey Mage]

They cant take bolters... so what would be the point in trying?

[Bradskey]

They cant take bolters... so what would be the point in trying?

 

doh! Forgot :P :huh:

[saphius]

Well, since you cannot fire and charge with bolters, is it any point to even spend the extra points on bolters. I just think that Grey hunters and Blood Claws are combat specialists and don't see the point in being able to deny them that.

- Whenever your in a transport or, even more specifically, landing in a drop pod.

[Dark Bjoern]

The point is to know how to use your troops. BC are our assault troops while GH are better in taking the charge.

You must start thinking as a wolf. We hunt in packs and not as single individium. See your whole army as a large pack. They must harmonize with eachother. Your packs should support each other. Don´t act too rush. We are not charging on the first sign of the enemy. We circle around him, make him tired and kill our prey when it is weak. Normally i split my army in two groups of equal firepower. I choose a target for each group and did not stop to fire on long range until this target is completly annihilated. I see many other players splitting their fire over 4 targets or more but all they archive is some light casualties here and there. But the enemy´s fire power is not much reduced. With my tactic i annihilate a unit each round and remove it´s firepower completly from the game. Normally i start CC in round 3, by this time half my enemy´s army is gone while my own casualties had been only marginal (the mistake with splitting firepower over too many targets).

The GH needs their bolters cause they add alot of anti-infantry firepower to their group on short to mid range. Much more then Bolt Pistols. The role of my GH is to reduce enemy infantry befor they charge into my GH or befor i charge them with my BCs and/or dreads. I try to bring my GH in a position that if the enemy will charge, he had to charge them first. GH are able to hold the line and with True Grit they still have 2A. While the GH are already in CC i counter charge in the next CC phase with their supporting units, a dread or two or some BCs. The trap has sprung.

 

My last three games i had won with very light or no casualies:

SW vs. Necrons:

I had have only one CC between a Tomb Spyder and my Attack Bike. All i lost had been one wound on it. That all i lost in the whole game! Nothing else! Ok, he was very unlucky with shooting with his Mono. He used the big gun and misses 3 times. But the rest of his army didn´t get in range to shot at me. I outgunned him and on turn 4 the necrons phased out.

 

SW vs Eldar:

This enemy makes the mistake i mentioned above: he splited his fire over my whole army and archived nothing. I concentrated my fire on two targets and killed them in a single round. In turn 3 i had been in CC with a Rune Prophet and some Banshees with my GH and my ven Dread while my BC slaughtered their way through his Rangers. His whole army was destroyed on turn 5 while all that i lost had been 6 GH and 1 BC. The BC rhino had gotten an "immobilized" result but had been able to repair himself.

 

SW vs Chaos:

It was more an execution then a battle. Again i started to destroy on long range. I killed his two Preds in the first round, that makes it much harder for my opponent to destroy my mechanized army. The rest had been easy. Again i killed the whole army. I lost a pack of 6 GH, 3 BCs and 1 Land Speeder Tornado.

 

You must start to see your GH as part of a larger force and not as a single unit.

[Grey Mage]

Thats how I win with my eldar.... I lost one tourney out of the last six I took them to. After all.... it makes sense on many levels. The dead are not a threat on the table top, nor can they contest objectives, and they yield kill points/ full victory points. Why would you wound the enemy when you can simply remove them en mass?

 

Though Ill note I do vary in that I usually split my targets up as such: Threats to my firepower, threats to my troops, vehicular threats to my firepower, vehicular threats to my troops. Depening on what i can get rid of most quickly, or what my force is depending on most to get the job done I prioritize from there. Then I set about removing them as completely and efficiently as possible from the field of battle.

 

After all, if theyd just throw down their guns Id give them quarter... but in 40k it never seems to come to that lol.

[hendrik]

My last three games i had won with very light or no casualies:

SW vs. Necrons:

I had have only one CC between a Tomb Spyder and my Attack Bike. All i lost had been one wound on it. That all i lost in the whole game! Nothing else! Ok, he was very unlucky with shooting with his Mono. He used the big gun and misses 3 times. But the rest of his army didn´t get in range to shot at me. I outgunned him and on turn 4 the necrons phased out.

 

SW vs Eldar:

This enemy makes the mistake i mentioned above: he splited his fire over my whole army and archived nothing. I concentrated my fire on two targets and killed them in a single round. In turn 3 i had been in CC with a Rune Prophet and some Banshees with my GH and my ven Dread while my BC slaughtered their way through his Rangers. His whole army was destroyed on turn 5 while all that i lost had been 6 GH and 1 BC. The BC rhino had gotten an "immobilized" result but had been able to repair himself.

 

SW vs Chaos:

It was more an execution then a battle. Again i started to destroy on long range. I killed his two Preds in the first round, that makes it much harder for my opponent to destroy my mechanized army. The rest had been easy. Again i killed the whole army. I lost a pack of 6 GH, 3 BCs and 1 Land Speeder Tornado.

 

You must start to see your GH as part of a larger force and not as a single unit.

:)

how can you outshoot a necron player without coming within 24" ?

you must give us a glimps at the armylist you're using:o

also*opens a new keg of ale* "on dark bjoerns' victory!!!"

http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x248/VirgilMeed/Heidelberg064.jpg

[Dark Bjoern]

:o

how can you outshoot a necron player without coming within 24" ?

you must give us a glimps at the armylist you're using:o

also*opens a new keg of ale* "on dark bjoerns' victory!!!"

http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x248/VirgilMeed/Heidelberg064.jpg

Just the right size. :)

I never said that i didn´t came within 24". I used a modified version of my normal List:

 

Rune Priest (attached to the Blood Claws) FB, RS, WTN, WP

 

Venerable Dreadnought: AC, DCCW/HF

 

Dreadnought: AC, DCCW/HF

Dreadnought: TLLC, ML

Dreadnought: TLLC, ML

 

2x6 GH: Bolter, 1PW, 1PF, Meltagun, Razorbacks (1x TLAC, 1x TLLC)

9 BC: 2x PW, 1 Flamer, Rhino

 

Land Speeder Tornado: AC, HB

 

Attack Bike (it replaced the second Land Speeder): HB

 

 

Necrons:

1 Necron Lord

1 Necron Destructor Lord

 

2x20(?) Necron Warriors

 

3 Phantoms

 

1 Tomb Spyder

 

1 Monolith

 

It was a Take and Hold Mission with 3 Targets

One of my GH packs stayed behind to keep my own target They had been supported by the two Long Fang Dreads.

My second GH pack and my BC moved slowly forward in their Razorback (TLLC) and Rhino against the target in the opponents deployment zone (left flank). They had been covered by the Long Fang Dreads, too. My second group (second Razorback (TLAC), ven. Dread, Dread Land Speeder and Attack Bike moved over right flank toward the Destructor Lord, the Spyder and the Phantoms. In my first round i was close enough with my second group to lay havoc on his Phantoms and wounded the Destructor Lord two times.

On the other side my opponent´s two Necron Warrior packs and the Lord had been behind a building out of view. So the Mono had been the only target for my Lascannons and ML. I archied only 2 weapon destroyed results in the first turn.

In the Necrons first turn the Mono fired with the big gun and missed. His lord attached to one of the Necron Warrior packs tried to teleport near the mission target at the table centre. He scattered right into my BC Rhino and vanished into the Warp forever. His Destructor Lord and the Spyder came closer to my second group.

In my second turn the ven dread and dread finished of the D-Lord with their ACs. The Razorback, the Attack Bike and the Land Speeder shoot at the Spyder and wounded it once. I attacked the thing in CC with the attack bike and lost the CC(the only wound that i got in the whole game). My other group fired again on the Mono but didn´t do any damage.

In the second Necron turn I killed the Spyder in CC with the attack bike.

The Mono fired with his big gun and missed dearly.

In my third turn my second group moved forward into a good fire position against the second Necron Warrior pack. The GH from the first group disembarked from their Razorback and occupied the second mission target. My BCs also left their Rhino and prepared to attack the Warriors in the next turn. I was a little bit pissed cause i shot two Warriors to few. Otherwise they had phased out in turn three.

Necron Third turn. The Mono fired again and again the template scattered far away and did no harm.

My forth turn was the last one. My Rune Priest and the BCs brought themself into position to assault the Warriors and take the mission target. My second group opened fire and finished the warriors befor my BCs could enter CC.

 

I won with 3-0 mission targets and Phase out.

 

I think the greatest mistake of my opponent was that he´s still using the same list and tactic he had used with the 4th Ed. In the 4th it may have worked but now....

[Bradskey]

sorry to interupt but could we please stay on topic

[Dark Bjoern]

Sorry!

Why Bolter?! Each pack fulfills a specific role in a SW army. BCs are our CC experts but the role of GH had changed. Meanwhile it had become more vital to take mission objects. We´re forced to keep more packs alive to take this objects. GH are best for that. With bolters you can still support your other units from afar and if your opponent tries to capture the object from you the GH can still make a stand on their own in CC. With pistols you couldn´t support your other units. That would reduce the effectivity of your GH.

[Lord Ragnarok]

Bolters are much better in DP armies since you cannot charge after dropping in. You must maximze firepower in this instance which means bolters are better with twice the shots.

[muzzyman1981]

I have Bolters on all my guys except on enough to give Ragnar a pack of Grey Hunters without them as I think Bolters would be a hinderance more than a help with him (at least until we get the new Codex and get our sets of Bolter/Bolt Pistol/CCW =P). That is about the ONLY thing Codex Chapters have that we don't that I would like to see us get.

 

I am thinking about getting a bunch of Blood Claws set up though just for Ragnar.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

a little piece of advice on ragnar muzzy, he is wasted with blood claws. his berserk charge doesnt stack with theirs. he is best used with wolf guard or grey hunters.

 

wolf lord kieran

[Thylacine]

Bradskey

 

"Well, since you cannot fire and charge with bolters, is it any point to even spend the extra points on bolters."

 

Range and firepower, pistols have neither and no SW list is so good that it can take down other units without some softening up from bolters first. To think otherwise, you would be deluding yourself.

 

Thylacine

[WolfLordLars]

Counter-charge. Walk up, unload with bolters, and they can either shoot back or charge. Of course, you dont want to do this with every army, but it usually works.

 

I have a single BP/CCW GH pack which works out pretty well, but overall, most have bolters. Pod drops and the modified rhino rush works with them.

[the jeske]

ok but GH cost more even if you dont twink them too much they still cost a lot of pts , but die like normal sm . now BC on the other hand have more bodies[that also die like normal sm , but you have to kill more to get rid of them] , they are superior in hth [more attacks on counter charge] . dont suffer from losing "specials" like GH units do etc . Its like pre tests for the sw codex in the 3ed . there is again no reason[aside for fluff] to use grey hunters .

 

 

 

 

also most strangest necron list i ever seen . no destroyers big 20 man squads ..horrible .

[Warhead01]

I also agree that bolters are the way to go with grey hunters.

My grey hunters with bolt pistols dont add that much or rather anything to my army. I prefer to shoot, shoot, shoot and then shoot again. But I deepstrike with the ever loved droppods so I need to overload a target with wounds and with luck they may run. (or atleast be a much more manageable size) I also stick 2 plasma pistols, a plasma gun and a combie plasma for the pack leader.

when they land it should go something like 14 bolter shoots and 6 plasma shots. Then counter charge. ? ?

but its all in what you like I guess. Im adding combie weapons all over my army now. Its better than close combat because I get both! maybe 2 kills befor I have to worie about them getting to swing.