Magnus

[Captain Kael]

While reading the Horus Heresey books, I came to a startling conclusion: Magnus was good all along! In Dark Gods, he tries to convince Horus not to side with Chaos and in Galaxy in Flames, Garro says to Tarvitz that LOYAL primarchs such as dorn and MAGNUS would stop Horus.

 

Magnus was loyal all along and it kind of ticks me off that he ended up siding with Chaos because the Emperor would not let him practice sorcery. I mean sure, its not the safest thing in the universe but if the Emperor can do it, why can't Magnus. Isn't it said that Magnus was second to the Emperor in terms of being phychic?

 

Horus did play a major part in it by convincing Russ to attack Magnus, but Magnus could surrendered and been taken back to Terra, why did he have to fight back? The Thousand Sons were good guys and an extra primarch on the loyalists side could have ended the HH faster and with better results. Why does the Emperor worry about sorcery anyways? He uses sorcery all the time.

 

I don't want this to sound like a rant but to think of the possibilites and advantages of Magnus not turning to Chaos and joining the Emperor. Besides does anyone agree with me?

 

Captain Kael :lol:

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

this is going to sound bad, but magnus was not loyal to the emperor. he had orders to NOT pursue sorcery, ordered by the emperor himself, and chose to ignore these orders. he wasnt the worst of the traitors though.

 

the difference between psychic powers and sorcery is that psychic powers are inherent in a person, while sorcery is a practiced art that can be learned with enough practice and knowledge. this is why space wolves always had their (shaman) rune priests while the thousand sons sorcerers were prohibited.

 

the emperor practiced sorcery far longer than the written word existed, and knew of the horrors within the warp. while magnus wasnt a total fool, he was delveling in powers he had no real knowlodge of.

 

wolf lord kieran

[Ethrion]

I am a big fan of the Thousand Sons and I agree with you in that it is kind of annoying how they were basically driven to ally with chaos. But faced with total annihilation and their backs to the wall, they had no choice but to flee into the EoT. I'm sure if there had been any other option Magnus would probably have tried to take it. Still, what's done is done...all is dust...

[Hellios]

I disagree with Magnus being a traitor. He may not have been the good little boy like some of the other Primarchs and disobeyed orders but he was confident in his knowledge and power to keep him safe (justly IMO). He showed his devotion to the Emperor when he risked being branded a traitor by sending him the message. He knew in Time he would be forgiven, what he didn't see was Russ being a douche.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

@helios: russ being a douche? i think you need to read a bit more of the HH series, as they reveal why Russ assaulted Prospero and the traitor primarch (see my post above) in the manner they did.

but to save us all time, Horus altered the Russ's orders and thats why prospero was assaulted to destroy, not to return magnus to the emperor. thats called following orders. if magnus practiced that there would have been no problem in the first place.

but magnus blantantly refuses to follow orders, which were in place for his own well being, got whipped for doing so and then fled to the nearest power that promised him aid.

and magnus had the knowledge and power to manage the warp? he couldnt even halt the mutation of his broken legion, or reverse the Rhubic of Ahriman.

 

wolf lord kieran

[Noserenda]

Magnus was a traitor the second he decided to keep up the pursuit of sorcery. He was a puppet of Tzeentch for a while longer than that too. Apologists always try to cover that up but its the truth.

[CelestialSon]

There's a mixed bag on contracticing fluff out there. Technically, the Emperor permitted the station of librarian for some time. The Councel of Nikea was less about the Emperor putting his foot down as it was a witch hunt headed by the other primarchs. That said, Horus was actually the one that turned the Sons traitors. Initially the Emperor ordered Magnus detained and taken back to Terra for questioning. Horus turned it around into Magnus needing to be killed, and sent Leman Russ, the most beligerent of the primarchs after Magnus, knowing full well he would attack, not fetch.

 

The fact that Magnus defected to chaos has yet to be mentioned as part of Horus's plan, only that 2 legions would be out of the equation when it came time to attack Terra. Also, it makes the Emperor look like a jerk for having his own son killed, and provided yet another reason for the other primarchs to betray Him on Terra

[Lord_Caerolion]

The thing is, the Emperor never allowed sorcery. The Emperor allowed psychic power to be utilised, but sorcery is when a pact is made with a Warp-being to gain power. That's why he forbade it, as you can never tell whether you're the one with the upper hand in the bargain. While Magnus was a psyker himself, he used sorcery to boost his own powers, giving him strength and control he wouldn't have had otherwise.

 

Magnus just believed that the Thousand Sons had the strength of will to properly use sorcery, and that they could tame the Warp. The Emperor thought that that could never be achieved, and that using sorcery could only lead to trouble in the end, when you create a pact that you really, really shouldn't have. As such, the Space Wolves were sent to bring Magnus back to the Emperor, to give some stronger "persuasion". Horus, trying to remove a troublesome enemy, told the Space Wolves to kill them instead, a plan which worked out even better for Horus, as the Thousand Sons ended up joining him.

 

So no, Magnus is less of a "misunderstood good guy", and more of an "out-of-depth idealist." He was just trying to do what he thought was best, but in doing so was doing something everyone else thought was dangerous.

[Sons of Horus]

Magnus was NOT a traitor. he merely wanted to practice his gift and use it to its full potential. and he was desperate to warn the emperor of Horus' treachery that in itself says a lot. he couldn't just surrender to russ because russ would've killed him right there after Horus convinced him to annihilate the 1k sons instead of bringing them to justice.

[Iron Lord]

And thanks to said message, the Emperor spent half the Heresy period trying to hold the webway gates on Terra together.

 

He also had a role in mind for Magnus- The Golden Throne, before the message was sent.

[JEFF4i]

Buncha sillyness!

 

The law says I can't murder people. Well, luckily I don't, but what if I have a knack for it. Well, by many of your logic, its justified!

 

The Council of Nikea was for good reason, the Emperor was trying to deny the warp power by us denying its use(excluding the obvious). Imagine what would have happened if Magnus never sent that message warning the Emperor? He's in the GT right now so I don't see it getting much worse, but imagine what a difference both the Wolves and the Sons would have made at Earth, instead of fighting eachother?

 

Magnus isn't innocent, he might not be as crazy as that madman Lorgar, but he brought it all upon himself.

[brother natar]

I personally don't think you can call Magnus a 'traitor', exactly, but he isn't exactly a GOOD guy either. He deliberatly went against what the Emperor ordered, because he thought he could handle anything the Warp threw at him. That shows he was a pretty vain dude, but he did this (i think, anyway) to improve humanities strength.

 

The fact he actually sent the Emperor a message via the warp also shows he had good intentions, as he was warning his father of the biggest revolt in the history of ALL of mankind. I think he was a good guy, if a little foolish and vain, and if it were not for the order to purge him and his legion he would have sided with the Emperor, and therefore is not a traitor by choice.

 

And i do not think Horus planned to get Magnus on side, either. He wanted him dead for trying to warn the Emperor, as if the emperor did believe Magnus the Heresy would have been pretty much over before it began.

[Silent Shadow]

However theres also the nature of the message Magnus sent to warn the Emperor as it was powered by pure sorcery and not psychic powers, he also chose to use this way instead of an astropath. This then caused the psychic barriers the emperor had built to keep the daemons out of the golden throne and the webway to be shattered so the daemons poured in which both greatly limited his plans and made the emperor sustain the barriers himself which was taxing for him and of course meant he had to stay in his dungeon. This of course infuriated the emeror that one of his own sons had caused this using sorcery and set the wolves on Magnus. One can only assume that this was Tzeentch manipulating him so he eventually offered his legion to him as we all know what Tzeentch is like.

[Razrhaghul]

the Good Son

i associate Magnus with a child, naive to how the mechanics of the world actually work, and not inherently bad just unlearned.

At the time this all went down, was a climax more so than just the dealings with Horus' betrayal, but the delicate nature of what the Emperor was trying to accomplish within the webway and the Runious Powers.

He knew well from his long-lived experience in dealing with the warp, and probably the collective knowledge of those shamans, that blind faith, belief and worship of the dark gods (knowingly or unknowingly) gave them power and strength...enough so that the barrier between the material and immaterium was weakened, and could allow the Dark Powers to spill over and annihilate the galaxy. By imposing his secular creed upon the lost human worlds, He denied the dark powers their staying power, and they began to fade; things get tricky later on when you try and protect humanity by keeping them ignorant (what they don't know will hurt them, if they aren't careful)

[...we had a similar myth dealing with the maintenance tunnels below our college campus. to the student body "they don't exist", but if you were caught down there you were in trouble].

 

Magnus however was not as learned in the ways of the warp and knew not that these warp entities were necessarily harmful to him, and by dabbling in sorcery he gave them power, while simultaneously drawing abilities from them. The Emperor could not fully tell His son that what he was doing fully, as that would acknowledge the existence of these powerful beings, as the knowledge alone of their existence would undo the imposed ignorance he was trying to keep.

"knowledge is power, hide it well" speaks true to this.

The Emperor's commands should have been good enough, and by disobeying his Father, even with the best intentions, Magnus disrespected him and (unknowingly) threatened the Emperor's works even further. When a child is disobedient you might warn them first to choose their next actions wisely, but if that child persists in being naughty, they must be punished.

 

From the Emperor's standpoint it would be hard not to justify His actions to summon Magnus. Here it is that you have two sons, the Good Son and the Mischievous One

Horus, the favored Good Son, the one that always did as he was told and the one that was entrusted with the responsibility of carrying on His works when the time came. And you have the Mischievous One, while not bad always seems to be in some kind of trouble, who thinks he knows better than Father, and whom has been scolded before so as not to hurt himself with his reckless behavior.

It would be hard for the Emperor to believe the word of the Mischievous One, who has disobeyed you time and time again, who now brings Him news (in a disobedient manner) that the Good Son is no longer good. That perhaps he is just crying wolf (no, not Leman Russ), in order to get attention to show his Father that he can tame that which he was warned to be untameable...

Magnus is the hobbystore kid who brings an unleashed dog into the store to show his dad he can take make it do tricks, but inadvertently lets it run amok and destroy everyone's armies. that child while having good intentions, cannot go unpunished...

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

@razrhaghul: that was explained very well. thank you.

 

wolf lord kieran

[Hellios]

I don't think people are arguing that Magnus didn't do wrong and shouldn't be punished but that he was not a Traitor he was attacked first and forced to do what he must for survival, and the price the legion paid was high indeed.

 

As for calling Russ a douche, that is because he is he is arrogant and acts without thinking. I could also use examples of his behaviour with the Emperor and the Lion to show other examples.

 

 

If the Emperor had trusted his sons or specifically Magnus enough to him about the wardings if no more Magnus might never had done what he did. Hell if the Emperor had trusted Magnus and believed his word then the Heresy may has gone in a totally different way. More Loyal legions, wouldn't have all been caught by surprise, more time to rally.

 

I think you could only call Magnus a traitor if you count his deception in regard of practising sorcerery. Yes this is a form of betrayal however I think most (not all) adults would not consider their children traitors just because they lied to them even about something important. Unless the aim of the deception was to somehow damage or cause harm.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

@hellios: well thereis a difference between a primarch ignoring the emperor's command and and a child disobeying his parents.

one of the above has a legion and near godlike power at his command

the other has...not much more than a yu-gi-oh craze.

 

i can see where people call russ a douche, especially a fan of a traitor primarch. but i would point out that Russ and the Lion were rivals, yet close brothers and they eventually settled their rivalry.

is vulkan a douche for challenging the emperor when he first arrived? or are you trying to fuel an debate stance with one sided point of views?

 

if magnus had trust in the emperor he would have respected his commands. but he didnt. goes both ways, only one way has thousands of years of psychic experience behind it, whereas the other has....colossal arrogance?

 

wolf lord kieran

[Razrhaghul]

i don't think Magnus as a traitor, rather too rash for his own good. while Russ may have been ignorant in a more blunt manner, Magnus was ignorant in an egotistical way. To be honest i always felt that the way Magnus fell and sided with Horus was more bad writing from GW, than any ill-intent on Magnus' part.

 

Mortarion at least had the excuse of being stuck in the warp and plagued by an unknown/incurable illness, that might have driven him mad, when he called out for help (from Nurgle) he was already upset with the Emperor from long ago for killing the warlord thing before he could.

 

Magnus, was scolded, and though he may have had some hand in the trouble that befell Prospero, it seemed really at odds and (too literal in my opinion) a "Change" of mind to side with Horus...though i suppose, Tzeentch could have masked his mind from the truth that it was Horus that unleashed the wolf upon him, but still.

[Jeebus]

I'll probably show my ignorance with the Horus Heresy fluff, but here are my thoughts.

 

Why the Council of Nikea? From the limited fluff I've found about it, it was a council that was brought together to debate the use of sorcery versus psychic power, correct? Wasn't Magnus the only one there to defend the use of sorcery? To me this seems silly on the Emperor's part. Why couldn't the Emp. just give Magnus a call and say, "Hey, let's get together and chat about some stuff".

 

The emperor could then have discussed sorcery with Magnus, and divulged some of his plans. While I understand what you're saying Razrhaghul about the Emp not being able to fully divulge his plan to Magnus, its not like the Emp was talking to just anyone, it was one of the Primarchs, letting them be privy to sensitive information couldn't have been all that bad.

 

But back to my main point, it seems the Council was setup as a way to publicly embarrass Magnus into following the Emperor's wishes. If the fluff I read was accurate, it said that Magnus left upset. So let me ask, if you tell someone they can no longer do something they enjoy or have a great interest in, the first thing they're going to do when no one is watching, is the thing they were told not to do (at least most people).

 

I'm not saying Magnus is innocent, but the Emp could have handled things differently instead of setting Magnus up to look like a fool in front of not only other primarchs, but other watcher-ons, inquisition, etc. Anyone that says the Emp didn't already have his decision made prior to the council would be naive, so to me, it was all a show to put Magnus in his place, which in turn would make Magnus not want to follow orders.

 

Hopefully that makes sense, and I'll add the caveat again that I'm fairly new to the Horus Heresy fluff and hopefully didn't get too far off base there!

[Razrhaghul]

he may have been made a public example not only for his own sake, but for the full knowledge of every legion, that what he says, he means for a reason...now whether he feels he needs to divulge that particular snippet of knowledge comes down to his own intuition/experience on the manner, and for a man that has lived for the better part of forty thousand years, i think he has enough sense in His decisions.

i guess i'll be drawing a lot of child-like analogies, but it is easier if not embarrassing to reinforce a point by calling out one student in front of a class for misbehaving, than it would be to pull each one aside on several different occasions to give a warning.

 

as for the nature of what the Emperor was working on in relation to Magnus' intentions, the Emperor may not have fully trusted Magnus enough let him know, just yet what he was dabbling in down in the dungeons of Terra. It comes back to the manner that He, the Emperor, their creator and Father's word should be enough. Also Magnus was known to be dabbling in sorcery, which was dangerous, since he could be unknowingly become a pawn of the Ruinous Powers, a portal to knowledge that should not be made privy to them. so perhaps what was made known to Magnus might also be known to Tzeentch through him.

[Hellios]

@hellios: well thereis a difference between a primarch ignoring the emperor's command and and a child disobeying his parents.

one of the above has a legion and near godlike power at his command

the other has...not much more than a yu-gi-oh craze.

 

i can see where people call russ a douche, especially a fan of a traitor primarch. but i would point out that Russ and the Lion were rivals, yet close brothers and they eventually settled their rivalry.

is vulkan a douche for challenging the emperor when he first arrived? or are you trying to fuel an debate stance with one sided point of views?

 

if magnus had trust in the emperor he would have respected his commands. but he didnt. goes both ways, only one way has thousands of years of psychic experience behind it, whereas the other has....colossal arrogance?

 

wolf lord kieran

 

First of all Experience doesn't count for everything although it means a lot. Also the Emperor had lots of experience of sing psyhic powers but he wasn't as automatically more experienced at using sorcery as magnus (AKA Daemonic pacts.), although he may well have been far more knowledgeable.

 

As for Russ V Vulkan its not what they did. Its how they did it. Russ and Vulkan are likely not the the only ones who challenged the Emperor. But Russ acts in a way that lacks dignity, respect and thought.

 

Also I'm not just a fan of the Thousand Sons. I have a far larger space wolves army. I also have a far larger Dark Angels army (than my 1kson about the same size as my SW). I like all three of the Primarchs for different reasons but its not that I can't see their flaws either. Like Russ being a douche, the Lion being Arrogant (Although is it arrogance if your right?) and Paranoid, while Magnus naive and maybe a bit arrogant.

[Brother-chaplain Astador]

I would not say that PRIOR to him joining horus (albeit he was forced) that Magnus was a traitor

 

I think what people are overlooking is that when Magnus learned of Horus treatchery, what did he do?

 

Defect?

 

Consider his options?

 

No, right away, he attempted to warn his father

 

Let us point out at this moment - had the Emperor not been so blinded by rage at his orders being disobeyed, he would have heeded the message and the SCALE of the atrosoties that occured might have been averted, he may even have 'lived'

 

Yes, Magnus tale is a tragic story, and it is meant to be so, you can't very well have 8 primarchs just up and hate the Emperor one day can you?

 

Up untill he was forced - he was no traitor, YES he disobeyed the Emperor, but he was still loyal to him.

 

And had the space wolves not attacked prospero...magnus would have fought for the Emperor.

 

Id like to say that Thousand Sons are one of my least favourite chapters, but Magnus did not wish to turn traitor..

[Noserenda]

Of course he was a traitor

 

trai·tor (trā'tər)

n. One who betrays one's country, a cause, or a trust, especially one who commits treason.

 

Emphasis mine, he betrayed the Emperors (And therefore the Imperiums) trust by continuing his studies in sorcery despite the results of Nikea. Which in was hardly a direct telling off, but more a council on what position the Legion would take on librarians and sorcery/psychics. At least one other Librarian from another Legion is noted as having spoken well and passionately in favour for example (I dont have my Visions with me or id be more detailed). In the end the case for sorcery lost, and all the other legions dismantled their Librariums and continued on.

 

Except Magnus, who stormed off in a tantrum and just moved his out of sight.

 

Yes it was a trust too, the Emperor did not send anyone to check up on Magnus, No Custodes stood over him, He was Trusted to do what the Council had agreed. Ofc he didnt. You could even argue that itself was a treasonous act too.

[BrotherAtrox]

The thing is, the Emperor never allowed sorcery. The Emperor allowed psychic power to be utilised, but sorcery is when a pact is made with a Warp-being to gain power. That's why he forbade it, as you can never tell whether you're the one with the upper hand in the bargain.

 

Do we have evidence about this difference between sorcery and psychic powers? It's the first time I've seen such a distinction made.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

@helios: if i came to your home in disguise and challanged your right to rule, wouldnt you be "obnoxious" to me?

more importantly, you are judging a person of the past (for Russ's lifestyle was one of the typical "viking warlord") by modern standards. as a student of history, that is perhaps the worstfatal flaw you can make. why? because as time passes, so do society's tolerance of what is acceptable or not.

ever read beowulf? is he arrogant when he lists his achievements upon his arrival? to modern society, yes he is. to the time period beowulf takes place in he was introducing himself in the accepted fashion. as written words were not around, only you knew your lists of deeds and thus announced them to new people so they can properly (flawed i know) judge you and your character.

 

now, if you want to talk about russ's faults i have detailed them before on another thread in this subforum, but here is a brief list of a few (by no means all of them) off the top of my head: arrogant (every primarch is to a degree, some more than others), rash, and blunt (seen by many as a flaw).

 

wolf lord kieran