Magnus

[angronn]

The thing is, the Emperor never allowed sorcery. The Emperor allowed psychic power to be utilised, but sorcery is when a pact is made with a Warp-being to gain power. That's why he forbade it, as you can never tell whether you're the one with the upper hand in the bargain.

 

Do we have evidence about this difference between sorcery and psychic powers? It's the first time I've seen such a distinction made.

 

Sourced from IA: 1k Sons I believe.

 

 

Magnus was arrogant. He thought he knew better than the Emperor, and felt he could master Chaos, but was mastered by it.

 

Yes, his first thought on hearing about Horus was to warn the Emperor, but to make sure it was done in such a way that the Emperor had to repent and accept that Magnus was right. And who can blame the Emperor for siding with the "Good Son" (as it has been put) who has done no wrong so far, against the son that is dealing with the ruinous powers (against the Emperor's express command) and stating that the Good Son is actually bad?

 

Magnus wanted to be right more than he really wanted to be loyal.

[JEFF4i]

First of all Experience doesn't count for everything although it means a lot. Also the Emperor had lots of experience of sing psyhic powers but he wasn't as automatically more experienced at using sorcery as magnus (AKA Daemonic pacts.), although he may well have been far more knowledgeable.

 

As for Russ V Vulkan its not what they did. Its how they did it. Russ and Vulkan are likely not the the only ones who challenged the Emperor. But Russ acts in a way that lacks dignity, respect and thought.

 

Also I'm not just a fan of the Thousand Sons. I have a far larger space wolves army. I also have a far larger Dark Angels army (than my 1kson about the same size as my SW). I like all three of the Primarchs for different reasons but its not that I can't see their flaws either. Like Russ being a douche, the Lion being Arrogant (Although is it arrogance if your right?) and Paranoid, while Magnus naive and maybe a bit arrogant.

 

FIrst of all what does Magnus have to make his argument for use valid? He's naive, plain and simple. Its not his fault that he is, but it doesn't change a thing.

 

Russ lacks dignity, respect and thought? Show me specific actions that do this. He has grudges, but he also respects honour, possibly more than any other primarch. He is rash, but not undignified, he just isn't snooty like Guilliman(hehehe).

[Hellios]

First of all Experience doesn't count for everything although it means a lot. Also the Emperor had lots of experience of sing psyhic powers but he wasn't as automatically more experienced at using sorcery as magnus (AKA Daemonic pacts.), although he may well have been far more knowledgeable.

 

As for Russ V Vulkan its not what they did. Its how they did it. Russ and Vulkan are likely not the the only ones who challenged the Emperor. But Russ acts in a way that lacks dignity, respect and thought.

 

Also I'm not just a fan of the Thousand Sons. I have a far larger space wolves army. I also have a far larger Dark Angels army (than my 1kson about the same size as my SW). I like all three of the Primarchs for different reasons but its not that I can't see their flaws either. Like Russ being a douche, the Lion being Arrogant (Although is it arrogance if your right?) and Paranoid, while Magnus naive and maybe a bit arrogant.

 

FIrst of all what does Magnus have to make his argument for use valid? He's naive, plain and simple. Its not his fault that he is, but it doesn't change a thing.

 

Russ lacks dignity, respect and thought? Show me specific actions that do this. He has grudges, but he also respects honour, possibly more than any other primarch. He is rash, but not undignified, he just isn't snooty like Guilliman(hehehe).

 

 

Russ gives into his anger too easily and when he gives into it he doesn't focus it in a positive way... much like Angron (Although his reasons are different, he is just unhinged.). This is the kind of behaviour that causes the loss of dignity the one thing that cannot be taken from a man and can only be surrendered by him. I can admit that in real life their have been times I have acted without dignity. Multiple examples can be found but I will give you the case that lead to the battle between Russ and the Lion with the Grox comment and all.

 

 

As for what someone else said about Russ and the Emperor its not as straight forward as that. Also at the time of the Vikings I could point out people who would find that kind of behaviour disgusting, they just don't happen to live in the same part of the world. I know how to understand the mind sets of people in the past but that doesn't make them right and my mind set isn't automatically right but I think its better and I'm always happy to improve it. Pride, Confidence and arrogance should never be good. The 1st is acceptable to levels, the 2nd is great unless it takes someone to the point of foolishness and the 3rd should be avoided at all costs but we are all human .

 

Also this is starting to go off-topic.

 

However on topic to the point made about trust that is valid. However do you declare everyone who lies to you a traitor? No you don't(I'm presume). You would only call them a traitor is you believed the offence was serious enough (which the emperor probably did), however if the circumstances were such that they merited this betrayal of trust you might accept their action. This was why Magnus was summoned straight away and not declared a traitor. He may or may not have been able to convince the emperor however to that point the Emperor hadn't declared him one and Magnus actions and intentions were of a loyal if disobedient servant. His hand was forced by Russ, he was made to sell himself to Tzeentch a move which the legion has regretted since but knows is their only chance of survival. Magnus is also unusual in the fact that he wants to see the Universe burn. While most Chaos Lords have desires (even if its just to spill BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD.). Magnus lives only for revenge (Maybe Like Abaddon, never sure whats with this guy.) because he only lived to study and server the Imperium and its master. He was then Betrayed by the Imperium in the form of Russ (Who was tricked by Horus) and Magnus did what he had to knowing their was no way back.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

okay, officially declaring this as a waste of time. unless new information is brought up, we are going in circles.

 

 

wolf lord kieran

[Ubermensch Commander]

Fact: Magnus disobeyed the Big E TWICE in using sorcery. First time, according the IA T-Sons, it was a friendly warning that there were things in the warp that werent to be messed with. Then Emperor finds out Magnus went and did it anyway. Fastforward to Nicea/Nikea. At the council Magnus was told EXPLICITLY not to keep mucking about with sorcery or the consequences would be dire. Still Magnus did not listen. This makes him a traitor. A well meaning traitor, a stupid and naive perhaps even arrogant traitor messing with forces beyond his ken, but a traitor nonetheless. Good intentions are lovely, but don't count for much in the face of using foul sorceries you were warned away from...twice. If ol' Night Haunter has to answer for giving Dorn a well deserved and long overdue beating, Magnus has to face the consequences for his actions as well.

 

I think it was magnanimous of the Emperor to order Russ to bring Magnus back in chains rather than ordering Prospero razed from the get go. Unfortunately for all parties involved, cept the Chaos forces, Horus played on Russes little issue with "them durn book learned sorcerers" and told Russ that it was cool to burn the planet to the ground.

 

Mangus was not forced to turn traitor save by his OWN actions.

 

If the law says "Hey do not do X or the repercussions will be severe" and you get off with a warning the first time and then do it AGAIN....well cannot say you werent warned.

 

Oh and yes this is a massive waste of time. But it is an online forum....par for course. :lol:

[Noserenda]

Russ gives into his anger too easily and when he gives into it he doesn't focus it in a positive way... much like Angron (Although his reasons are different, he is just unhinged.). This is the kind of behaviour that causes the loss of dignity the one thing that cannot be taken from a man and can only be surrendered by him. I can admit that in real life their have been times I have acted without dignity. Multiple examples can be found but I will give you the case that lead to the battle between Russ and the Lion with the Grox comment and all.

 

You are again judging Russ by faulty values, hes a product of his culture! He would have lost HIS dignity by remaining silent in those instances.

 

And a quick summary of Sorcery v Psychics (Its been gone into in depth many many times)

 

Sorcery: Not innate, Sorceror makes "pacts" with Daemons to power/fuel his gifts/powers/magic which can be many and varied.

Psychic: Innate Mutation, due to wierd genes Psychic is able to perform specific feats using warp power.

 

And yes, Warp power and daemons are different things

[c-wrex]

As I recall, in my HH collected visions book, there is a piece where Magnus sends a message to Horus post razing of Prospero to the tune of "Yo Horus, you know I didn't want to get all up in your beef with pops, but dad sent that punk-ass Russ to come and damage my comfort zone, so now I guess I'm on your side by default."

 

The Council of Nikea saw both sides of the coin, with some Primarchs, like Corax, Dorn, and Mortarion, denouncing and slandering Magnus and his magicks, and other primarchs, though none were named (I suspect Guilliman, the Lion, and Lorgar), stood up to defend Mr. the Red and the overall use of the mystic arts.

 

Seeing as we don't have the whole picture and all the information, and considering that much of the info could be deliberately biased and misleading, and given that these occurred ten thousand years ago (..thirty thousand years from now.. :blink:) not many people know just what the details are.

 

I support Magnus, and his motives, if not his actual choices. Besides, the Sons two color schemes are both hardcore, and their gunline philosophy rocks my socks.

 

Kieran, do you get into pro-Russ arguments in each thread you get involved in or is it just the ones I've read ;) ?

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

well, whenever the topic of "who's a traitor" comes up the traitors or traitor allies try to use my glorious Russ as an scapegoat or excuse for their actions. Like above, Magnus only went traitor as the Wolves kicked him and their legions butts in a savage like fashion. This caused them to go to whatever power would aid them against such a awesome and terrible foe. Which would sound like a valid point if you ignored everything else that Magnus did (or more pointedly, didnt do... ignoring the Council of Nikea and the Emperor's personal commands ring a bell?).

 

I, being a decently well read Wolf Lord, would lose all honor and diginity if i let such depraved attacks on my Lord's honor go unanswered.

 

Wolf Lord Kieran

[c-wrex]

And do you really think that the Wolves, perfect legion they are in your eyes, would have fared any better had they been subjected to a surprise assault from the Thousand Sons?

 

If the Fang was blasted with vicious orbital barrages and pummeled with torpedoes while thousands of Thousand Sons teleported throughout the big ole pebble and started flinging spells and bolts in all directions, out of absolutely nowhere all the while as drop pods and thunderhawks/stormbirds were touching down across every single settlement across Fenris, do you really think that Russ' lot would have had better luck in surviving against the Sons?

 

Most of the fluff sources I've read indicated that once the Wolves initial landings had been made and the Sons had been aware of the attack, that suddenly the massacre shifted into an extremely hard fought campaign. It's only because so many of the Thousand sons were killed in the initial wave pf attacks before they knew they were even fighting.

 

In the reversed scenario I propsed, I submit your precious Wolves would have been completely annihilated, seeing as they didn't have any warp based escape plans. For this scenario, motives for attack are irrelevant. I'm just saying, it seems rather shady to praise your (not you personally, Kieran) warriors fighting prowess when their foe wasn't even aware of the fight. If I had a knife, I could kill any expert of combat, of any stripe, if I came screaming out from behind the shower curtain and started stabbing while the dude was on the can. I'm sure your (fictional) lords honour has been satisfied, though.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

"perfect legion"?? hell no. they have their flaws (which we have been over before if i remember correctly)

 

and not to disapoint, but the 1,000 Sons have laid siege to the Fang before. Magnus had sent visions to the Great Wolf Harek Ironhelm, and led him on a goose chase to the world of Gangava. Here combined Great Companies of the Space Wolves found a token force of 1k Son allies, but not the battle which Great Wolf Ironhelm was led to believe. WHile this occured, Magnus invaded Fenris. Bjorn the Fell-Handed took command of the SW skeleton forces (thralls and Blood Claws not yet assigned to Great Companies), and for 40 days and 40 nights repulsed every attempt Magnus made to penetrate the Fang. Where the Thousand Sons overcame the defences of the Wolves, Bjorn collasped tunnels and brought down mountains to deny victory to the chaos spawn. Finally, a Wolf Scout named Haarkon Blackwing finally broke through the siege and brought word to Great Wolf Ironhelm. The Great Wolf returned to Fernis with all the rage of Russ, and completely drove the chaos forces from the planet. Magnus and the Great Wolf met in personal combat, but while Great Wolf Ironhelm was mighty, he was no match for a Daemon Primarch. Shortly before the complete rout of the Thousand Sons, Magnus killed the Great Wolf but was grievously wounded in return. Seeing the tide of battle turn against him, he took his survivors and fled to the Warp. (this seems to be a pattern when he fights the Wolves)

 

Thus, while the Wolves destroyed Prospero, Magnus (with the aid of all his Tzeentch borne gifts) failed to return the favor. They completely suprised us and got their teeth handed back to them for their efforts.

(all this is found in Index Astartes article: Warriors of Old)

 

Wolf Lord Kieran

[c-wrex]

Ah, this is true, but there are three important factors which I feel need to be considered to digest that info properly.

 

1. By the time the Sons did attack the Fang, the reality of Astartes attacking other Astartes was no longer as new or so thoroughly shocking as it was the first time around. I do believe that the battle of prospero was the first inter legion conflict, or otherwise it was not something that either participating legion had previously encountered. Space marines at the time, speaking only of the Space Wolves and the Thousand sons, had never warred against one another before, so they never needed to consider that they might have to defend against them. The Thousand Sons were taken completely by surprise at Prospero. Bjorn and friends had already been there and done that.

 

2. The attack on the Fang was conducted by Rubrics, incapable of the necessary battlefield initiative and quick thinking that is required to fight against space marines. When the sorceror leading a group of the big blue puppets gets wasted, the rubes kinda wander around doing nothing until a psyker, or more authoritative legion officer comes along and sets them straight. Space Wolves, being a naturally independant fighting force, are well accustomed to fighting on their own with no direction. Fighting Rubrics is like battling the zombies in Left 4 Dead, the XBox 360 video game (and man oh man what a fun game it is!!); turn away their attention, and they'll forget they were fighting you at all.

 

3. Games workshop philosophy of "Loyalists are always better at everything, period, and will always win, especially if they are one of our favorite and (admittedly, very) coolest chapters."

 

I just try to think of how mighty the two could have been if they ever could have combined their prowess and didn't have conspirators setting them at one another. I'm the kind of guy who tries to bring all perspectives into view for purposes of arguments and discussions.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

heya,

while Bjorn and his boys were all use to the idea of fighting against Space Marines, "his boys" consisted of Thralls (unaugmented humans) and Blood Claws (troops dedicated to assaulting, not defense. oh yeah, they havent completed their training either) and Wolf Scouts. They not only beat the Rubrics (which i will grant arent the most deadly of opponents if dealt with properly) but also the Sorcerers, daemons, and Daemon Primarch of the Thousand Sons. All while outnumbered by (insert titantic number here...not exactly sure of the post heresy strength of the Thousand Sons)! But sure, make more excuses for this defeat. :P

 

but i dont think that Russ and Magnus could have been friends, as their upbringing and values were directly opposed to one anther.

 

Wolf Lord Kieran

[Raulmichile]

Besides, how couldn't Magnus in all his might figure out that Russ will attack and not merely request an interview? If I was a Primarch like him at least I would set my troops in defense stance knowing beforehand that if Russ comes in with his complete legion it would surely won't be to say "hello!".

[Razrhaghul]

yeah but the Primarchs were very proud beings, they like to show off. so if Russ came, as he was originally orders to apprehend Magnus, he would need a lot more resources than a single grand company to arrest and hold another legion, as well as flaunt the strength of his legion kind of a "mines bigger and your in trouble"...

 

(i'm not ganging up on Russ, i don't think being humble was built into any of the Primarch personalities)

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

while i often get accused of being a fanboy of Russ, i usually seem to list more of his faults than skills. it must be that degree in history making me be honest...damn years spent study conflicts from multiple sources in order to present a educated opinion on presentations to professors...

 

but yeah, i dont think any of the primarchs were humble, as they were designed to be dynamic warlords capable of dominating star systems by their threats.

some of the primarchs were less arrogant than others though (which was went over in another HH post)

 

@raulmichile: the IA of the Thousand Sons said (i believe) that tzeentch himself blocked russ's apporach from magnus, so russ could devastate the legion. when magnus cried out for help, tzeentch was there to answer. sneaky huh?

 

wolf lord kieran

[Oor_Mate_vlad]

Ok, I'm just about halfway through False Gods and I just want to throw in my tuppence into this debate.

 

Wasn't Magnus trying to stop the whole HH by telling Horus not to listen to Erebus?

 

Wouldn't that, by dint of logic, make Magnus loyal?

 

Instead of all this hate towards Magnus and Russ shouldn't we instead be hating on Lorgar? After all, from what I can see, it was him who started the whole thing and since there aren't any Word Bearers here what better thing to do that hate on the unrepresented ^_^

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

yes, Magnus used an outlawed practice to warn horus about erebus.

then Magnus again used an outlawed practice to warn the emperor against Horus.

 

no. because while the Imperium of Man might say the ends justify the means (and they are divided on this as well), no functional government can properly run with such an attitude.

 

if a law is made, there is usually a reason of why the law has been made. in this case its because the Emperor knew of the dangers of the warp. Magnus either didnt know of the dangers (making him a fool for using such a dangerous tool without proper knowledge) or knew of the dangers and was dismissed them (making him a fool for obvious reasons).

 

erebus is the "typical movie villian", so hate towards him and the foolish word bearers is implied by just saying their names.

 

wolf lord kieran

[LordMetalBoxes]

You people saying that the Emperor didn't trust Magnus, perhaps not entirely, but Magnus was his choice to SIT ON THE GOLDEN THRONE, sure that was primarily because after the Emp Magnus was the Most powerful Psyker in the Imperium, but still, you don't hand that kind of power off to someone you don't. So, wile the emperor was Justified in his feelings of betrayal since Magnus did break that trust, Sending Russ was a stupid discion, since he and Mortarion were Magnus' main opposition, Ignoring Horus, and Tzeentch the possibilities of something going wrong with sending those two is endless

[Captain Kael]

Looks like I have started quite the convo. :cuss

 

Anways I think that even though Magnus broke the "rules" he meant well and was only trying to save Horus and warn the Emperor. He didn't believe any other way of sending the message would be safe or fast enough. Besides everyone makes mistakes, I mean even Russ would have felt bad after he found out that he anhilated his brothers legion because he was told a lie. I think that Magnus was utterly loyal to the Emperor, but Horus ruined everyones lives.

 

Captain Kael ;)

[Grand Master Tyrak]

At the end of the day, Magnus, like everyone else, just got caught up in the HH. The reason it seems so bad to us if because the bigger you are, the harder you fall. I would imagine there would be similar examples of the same story across the Imperial Army, the Mechanicum, the Navy etc.

[Giant Fossil Penguin]

Remember, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

If Magnus had used sorcery to try to save Horus (possibly the only he could have found out what was going on and then to intervene) and THEN used accepted channels to send his message to the Emperor, all would probably have been well. As someone has already said, Magnus' message was to prove to his father that he HAD mastered sorcery, that he was in control and that it was the Emperor who was wrong.

A psyker of great power, Magnus, had he left for Terra with his Legion, should have been able to get close enough to get a message through using an astropath, or even get back to the Sol system. In his arrogance he didn't and then Horus and Tzeentch intervened and brought it all crashing down on him.

Maybe we should regard him as an accidental traitor, a victim of his own arrogance and hubris and a fall-guy to others' schemes, but one who brought it upon himself.

 

GFP

 

p.s. Those talking about wether the Wolves kicked Son-y butt should remember that Russ was accompanied by a good number of Custodes and Silent Sisters. Now thats gotta hurt!

[Dyp100]

Well, firstly, the Emperor told Magnus not to do it, but it was a way of life for him.

 

When the Emperor found out, he was annoyed, but allowed other Legions to train Librarians.

 

After a while, Mort and Russ was like: ITS BAD! STOP!

 

They called the Council, and the Emperor banned it.

 

Magnus saw Horus getting turned to Chaos, and warned the Emperor, but that opened a hole in the Emperors shield inside the web way he was working on.

 

Russ was told to go fetch, but Horus felt betrayed, and told Russ that the Emperor didn't mind the Puppies biting the 1k Sons to the dust.

 

Russ was about to strike down Mangus, one of the Emperors most loyal sons, but now he had been driven to the edge, and swore his alliance to the free God, as was "saved".

 

The rest is history...Oh, yeah, and he joined Horus after, feeling betrayed and all.

[Captain Kael]

As I am reading more and more of the replies to the thread, I am guessing that Magnus was kind of like the odd one out.

 

It seem like he was close with none of the other primarchs. Horus doesn't like him, Russ and Mortarion dissaprove of him, and the others speak of him in contempt through out the HH books.

 

I guess he wanted to prove to his father and his brothers that he actually is something and not just a loony. He wanted to prove to them that he was as good enough as the rest were. He just did it like a retard. (break the emperor's wards and such)

 

Captain Kael :huh:

[angronn]

Actually Magnus was anything but a retard. He was an exceptionally clever scholar, but like many incredibly clever people he fell into the trap of arrogance and believed nothing to be beyond his ken. This led to a lack of wisdom in the use of his powers.

 

As I said previously, his arrogance and pride is shown in his attempt to force the Emperor to admit to being wrong (with his melodramatic warning as opposed to a more mundane use of channels).

[Oor_Mate_vlad]

As I said previously, his arrogance and pride is shown in his attempt to force the Emperor to admit to being wrong (with his melodramatic warning as opposed to a more mundane use of channels).

 

Was there nor warp storms blocking Astropathic communication?