Magnus

[Emperor's Scourge]

I think GW was channeling Star Wars when they wrote up Magnus' back story. Classic story of Good Guy thinking he can use Evil to fight Evil.

 

And yeah...Russ and the Emperor handled the situation like complete douches. The big E should have known better to send a bitter rival and his goons to nicely escort Magnus back to Terra for a talk.

[angronn]

As I said previously, his arrogance and pride is shown in his attempt to force the Emperor to admit to being wrong (with his melodramatic warning as opposed to a more mundane use of channels).

 

Was there nor warp storms blocking Astropathic communication?

 

My understanding was that normal channels would have taken longer, yes. But instead Magnus chose to use a means expressly forbidden to him by the Emperor in order to prove how right he was about their value.

[Oor_Mate_vlad]

As I said previously, his arrogance and pride is shown in his attempt to force the Emperor to admit to being wrong (with his melodramatic warning as opposed to a more mundane use of channels).

 

Was there nor warp storms blocking Astropathic communication?

 

My understanding was that normal channels would have taken longer, yes. But instead Magnus chose to use a means expressly forbidden to him by the Emperor in order to prove how right he was about their value.

 

So he can't use Astropaths, regular comms would take months. What was Magnus suppose to send in that message "Dear pop, by the time you get this message your favourite son Horus will have stormed your palace on Terra and will be holding the galaxy in an iron grip". Given the choice between dooming the entire galaxy or just a small part of it I know what choice I'd take.

[angronn]

Well, now you've made me go and look at the fluff. I haven't any BL stuff, but having scouted through Codex: Chaos (v2), Codex: Chaos Space Marines (v3 and v3.5), IA: Thousand Sons and Codex: Chaos Space Marines (v4), there was nothing to indicate that Magnus couldn't have used normal astropathic channels, implying instead that he chose sorcery as the most immediate (and most useful for proving how right he was) way of contacting the Emperor.

 

The Collected Visions might tell a different story, perhaps.

[Oor_Mate_vlad]

It's in the Galazy In Flames novel (I think) where the Chaos Gods reveal to Horus that they darkened the warp to hide what they were doing. Astropath Ing Mae Sing also tells Horus before this that there are serious warp storms brewing which will disrupt communication. We're led to assume that the two are one and the same.

[Chimerical]

It's funny how many people see this as an issue where you're supposed to take sides. This plot is clearly a tragedy. Everyone has good intentions, but their faults converge and people die. The Emperor is at fault for his indignant reaction to Magnus: "You disobeyed me and you insult the honor of my favourite son!" His wounded pride gets in the way of taking the actions that would have led to the far better outcome, i.e. taking Magnus' message seriously and destroying the real traitors.

 

Russ' fault is is his impulsiveness and over-zealousness in carrying out the Emperor's will. This makes him vulnerable to Horus' manipulation, a willing tool for any master regardless of that master's purpose.

 

And what is Magnus' fault in comparison to these? He is not the idealist, as someone earlier suggested. He is a consequentialist. He knows the dangers of the warp (he'd observed how Erebus corrupted Horus) but he breaks the Emperor's rule against sorcery in order to save the Imperium. His fault is naivete, but not just because of his dabbling in sorcery, on the contrary, up the the point he was attacked by Russ it doesn't appear the Thousand Sons had been tainted by Chaos at all. His real naivete was his failure to see the Emperor's pride and favouritism.

 

So, everyone has a fault here, these faults should have been easily overcome in the interest of the Imperium, but instead they lead to the deaths of billions, and brothers spilling each others blood. Yep, it's a real tragedy, and that's what makes it a great story.

 

In that sense it's sort of silly to get defensive about one or the other of the parties. That said, the Emperor really has to shoulder the most blame. If you haven't picked up that vibe from practically every HH book, I don't know what you're reading. Among his major mistakes, which the books make quite clear, is his choosing of Horus as Warmaster and the way he deliberately kept the primarchs in the dark about Chaos, leaving them fundamentally unprepared for their ventures through the universe. If Magnus was naive about the dangers of the warp, the Emperor should have enlightened him rather than say, "You will not use sorcery because I say so. You don't need reasons." The emperor may have believed his secretiveness on various issues was for the greater good, but clearly it was not, it bred both doubt and naive inquisitiveness.

 

There are others as well, less directly related to this topic, such as the infamous pressganging of Angron, indeed his use of such primarchs as Angron, Curze, and Lorgar at all, his incredible xenophobia, etc. It all comes back to the Emperor.

[Oor_Mate_vlad]

The emperor may have believed his secretiveness on various issues was for the greater good,

 

I had no idea the Emperor of Mankind was a fish!

[Giant Fossil Penguin]

I've just re-read my copy of Visions of Heresy, and, with this forum coming to mind, I looked at the bits on Magnus. Contrary to what I had thought, Magnus was not naieve or misguided but very definitely a bad'un. The Emperor knew how powerful Magnus was and so showed him what lurked in the warp. Out of all of humanity (at the time at least) they were the only two who really understood what was out there. And despite this Magnus carried on with his sorcery, believing that he could tame what the Emperor told him he couldn't.

Horus and Erebus are speaking before the Heresy is fully underway, and Erebus (I think, or it could have been Horus) says of MAgnus that he has already made his pact with Tzeentch, he just doesn't know it yet.

The book, as I read it, didn't mention Horus 're-interpreting' the Emperor's order to Russ. It just says that Russ went on the rampage. At this point I believe that Magnus was to be brought to Terra to power the Golden Throne so that the Emperor would be free to lead his forces. A bit of a stuff up by the good guys there, eh?

To try and make some sort of point from all of this, I think that Magnus was not 'misunderstood' but was weak and proud; he thought he could tame the warp and lusted after the power it could give him, thinking himself too clever to be caught out.

 

D'oh!

 

GFP

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

i dont have a copy of Visions of Heresy, so all i can say is that the news of the Emperor and Magnus "talking shop" on the nature on the Warp is news to me.

the issue of Russ's orders has been addressed in the HH series.

 

wolf lord kieran

[Giant Fossil Penguin]

Just to clarify on the Emperor warning Magnus (and I'm trying not to quote too freely): On p.91 Collected Visions

 

Upon meeting Magnus...cautioned him about the dangers of sorcery...nature of the warp. The Emperor realised that Magnus was very powerful. ...feeling it was more dangerous for Magnus...remain ignorant...the Emperor showed him the truth.

Magnus feigned shock...immediately agreeing to renounce sorcery...secretly dismissed the Emperor's warnings. He had already peered into the warp...obsessed with the power and beauty it promised him.

 

He was a bad 'un alright.

GFP

 

@mods: If I have gone too far with the above quote could you please let me know? I'll be happy to shorten it, or even just get rid, if needed. Thanks.

[angronn]

The Emperor is at fault for his indignant reaction to Magnus: "You disobeyed me and you insult the honor of my favourite son!" His wounded pride gets in the way of taking the actions that would have led to the far better outcome, i.e. taking Magnus' message seriously and destroying the real traitors.

 

This would have been a bizarre tack to take. From the Emperor's viewpoint, it looks more like this:

 

Already disobedient son is dabbling with corrupting forces and has used them to tell me that my best and most loyal son is actually evil.

 

As opposed to your statement, which relies on it looking like this:

 

Magnus is loyal, despite clearly disobeying me and using forbidden Chaos magic, and most trusted Horus is actually a Chaos pawn.

 

 

The tragedy on the Emperor's part is that he made what seemed to him a perfectly reasonable deduction, but one which we know to be mistaken.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

The tragedy on the Emperor's part is that he made what seemed to him a perfectly reasonable deduction, but one which we know to be mistaken.

 

To add irony to that tragedy, in the process the Emperor would have trusted his own foresight and psychic abilities, making the same mistake Magnus did.

[jakiwis]

Well, I see it like this.

 

Magnus was already warned and howed the dangers of the Warp. Granted, Magnus is loyal to the Emperor yet his curiosity is already flamed by this and continues to dabble into sorcery WITHOUT the knowledge of the Emperor who showed him it is bad. Magnus in False Gods decide to use the Warp to warn the Emperor to show the Emperor that the Warp can be used for good (Something alot do not mention) He really wanted to make a statement to the emperor and in the process blew up something in Terra, enrages the Empror who already told him not to use it, and tells him that his favorite son has turned to Chaos.

 

I have this example, please indulge me if you will:

 

The emperor is a father who sees that his son Magnus starts growing weed. He tells magnus that he should stop because it is illegal and bad. Magnus still does it secretly and there came a time that the emperor is in pain and magnus gives him some medicinal weed to alleviate the said pain. Upon knowing this the Emperor gets mad since he already told Magnus to stop growing weed no matter if it is for good or otherwise. Then to make matters worse, Magnus tells the Emperor that his Favorite and suppossedly "Good" son is already addicted to weed. How would the Empror react to that. You have Magnus as your son who knowingly disobeys your order and then tries to hide it by ratting horus out. I would be pretty pissed if I was the Emperor.

 

I wouls say that Magnus had the right intentions but messed up along the way in implementing his plan.

[Beef]

He even tried to warn Horus when he was in a coma on Davin. The turning point for magnus turning to Chaos came when Russ beat the crap out of him

[Ethrion]

Magnus for all intents and purposes thought that what he was doing was in the Emperor's best interests, that the sorcerous message was vital and the Emperor would understand the importance of sending it in such a way. Magnus also believed wholeheartedly that he was in mastery of the powers of the warp and that he could control them and use them for good. However, as 'Collected Visions' now tells us he, like many of the traitor primarchs were simply fooled and shown what they wanted to see by the ruinous powers. Without knowing it Magnus and his legion were pawns to Tzeentch and had been since they had started delving into the warp.

 

In short, he believed he was still good but he was being manipulated all the while. The moment when the Space Wolves attack is seen as the point where Magnus is forced to turn traitor out of necessity forced on him by the Emperor and Russ but in fact it was all engineered.

 

Collected Visions gives us some really good new information and insights into what happened. Worth a look for sure!

[c-wrex]

I have this example, please indulge me if you will:

 

The emperor is a father who sees that his son Magnus starts growing weed. He tells magnus that he should stop because it is illegal and bad. Magnus still does it secretly and there came a time that the emperor is in pain and magnus gives him some medicinal weed to alleviate the said pain. Upon knowing this the Emperor gets mad since he already told Magnus to stop growing weed no matter if it is for good or otherwise. Then to make matters worse, Magnus tells the Emperor that his Favorite and suppossedly "Good" son is already addicted to weed. How would the Empror react to that. You have Magnus as your son who knowingly disobeys your order and then tries to hide it by ratting horus out. I would be pretty pissed if I was the Emperor.

 

...what kind of cannabis do primarchs enjoy...wwwwooowww.......I bet it's expensive :P

 

Good example though. To me there seems to be two key issues here. One, is the Emperor and his big ole plan. Now, Tim, because the Emperor's name is Tim, Tim is busting his hump and trying to free mankind, and he's doing it through superior science, technological growth, and precise application of mental and physical force. Now, for this to work, a very strict set of rules and guidelines must be followed, and the plan may NOT be deviated from, even a teensy bit.

 

Issue number two, is Magnus. Specifically, his deviation from the grand scheming of Tim. Now, to Magnus, the warp is source of unfathomable power, that like everything in the universe, seems like it ought to be used by mankind, for it's benefit. He takes his view to Tim, and Tim's all "Magnus, listen up. Keep this up and I'll put you on time out for all time." Magnus is like "But dad, we can use this just like anything else. I'm really good at it, and can do it for you!" But then Tim, being the great and powerful Tim, responds "No! If I catch you messing with the warp, and trying to do something different from what I suggest, because there is no possibility I am wrong or short-sighted, then I will have big bad things done to you and your cronies, so stuff it!"

 

...well, maybe a little simplified, but essentially the same. Now, what would you rather do? Get drunk with Russ, or take some medicine with Magnus :)

 

In short, he believed he was still good but he was being manipulated all the while. The moment when the Space Wolves attack is seen as the point where Magnus is forced to turn traitor out of necessity forced on him by the Emperor and Russ but in fact it was all engineered.

 

Could you just imagine how badass it would look to see the Wolves backed up by the Sons sticking it to Horus?

[Warp Angel]

You cannot be a misunderstood "Good Guy" when you decide that saving your own life is worth becoming an agent of everything that you thought was good in the universe, and turning yourself into an agent of Chaos.

 

"Yeah, the Imperium is great and all. The Emperor's goals are noble. But, you know what, I like living more than I like the idea that humanity might have a bright future.

 

I'm going to sell my soul to Tzeentch so I don't die here at the hands of Russ, and turn my efforts towards supporting the forces that want to destroy the universe.

 

I'm going to do this because I'm a good guy, and just misunderstood."

 

Ummmmm.... yeah.... not so much.

[c-wrex]

He became a soldier of chaos when Big E sent Russ to go out and punish him for trying to warn him. For ignoring that Magnus sent him a message with the intent of SAVING the realm of mankind. For ignoring that for his entire tenure as a primarch, Magnus and his legion had fought tirelessly and with great vigour, like every other legion. For being a all around jerk. Think if you were in a crime family. You catch your eldest brother talking to the fuzz and you try towarn dad. Dad flips out and sends another brother to kill you for telling lies. Would you just roll over and take it? Look beyond the face, Warp Angel.

[Ubermensch Commander]

He became a soldier of chaos when Big E sent Russ to go out and punish him for trying to warn him. For ignoring that Magnus sent him a message with the intent of SAVING the realm of mankind. For ignoring that for his entire tenure as a primarch, Magnus and his legion had fought tirelessly and with great vigour, like every other legion. For being a all around jerk. Think if you were in a crime family. You catch your eldest brother talking to the fuzz and you try towarn dad. Dad flips out and sends another brother to kill you for telling lies. Would you just roll over and take it? Look beyond the face, Warp Angel.

 

Except Magnus was EXPLICITLY warned NOT to go trucking with sorcerous magicks. Russ coming out at Magnus was not a surprise, unexpected, and an impulsive flip out thing. It was not unreasonable. It was the EXACT thing the Big E said he was gonna do if he found Magnus continuing to truck with dark magicks...and that meant Magnus lied to the Emperor twice on the very serious issue of warp magick.

Magnus was disobeying an explicit command from the Big E, and he knew the consequences.

I believe what Warp Angel is refuting is the assertion that Magnus is/was some kind of misunderstood good guy.

Had Magnus been as such, he would have stood down, offered surrender, or fled to HELP the Big E during the Heresy DESPITE coming under attack from the Space Wolves...NOT turned to a horrible dark god and try to destroy the Imperium.(Which Magnus would not have been enslaved too had the fool heeded the Emperor's warning about the immaterium prior to the council of Nicea)

 

so yeah.. NOT misunderstood good guy. Arrogant fool succumbing to his own hubris? Yes. Practicioner of dark magicks with good intentions? again, yes. But there is nothing misunderstood about Magnus. He was warned, he disobeyed, was manipluated by dark forces, and joined with them in a time of crisis and is now seeking to subvert the Imperium.

[jakiwis]

I would agree, he was in no way misunderstood. He was already warned about delving into the warp which me ignored. I would say his turn to CHaos was more of a self preserving neccesity (much like the Alpha Legion I think) than reall devotion to the dark gods (like the word bearers) but he still went to Chaos which is still the same result.

[Ethrion]

He became a soldier of chaos when Big E sent Russ to go out and punish him for trying to warn him.

 

He was already a pawn of chaos long before that. He just didn't know it, because like most of the other chaos corrupted primarchs he was being fooled. He truely believed he was in command of the warp and sorcerous powers but he was being duped deliberately so as to bring about the outcome that eventually ensued.

 

If possible try and get hold of a copy of 'Collected Visions'. It is quite revealing in a lot of areas especially regarding Magnus, the Thousand Sons and the battle against the Space Wolves. Definitely worth checking out.

[Child-of-the-Emperor]

While reading the Horus Heresey books, I came to a startling conclusion: Magnus was good all along! In Dark Gods, he tries to convince Horus not to side with Chaos and in Galaxy in Flames, Garro says to Tarvitz that LOYAL primarchs such as dorn and MAGNUS would stop Horus.

 

Magnus was loyal all along and it kind of ticks me off that he ended up siding with Chaos because the Emperor would not let him practice sorcery. I mean sure, its not the safest thing in the universe but if the Emperor can do it, why can't Magnus. Isn't it said that Magnus was second to the Emperor in terms of being phychic?

 

Horus did play a major part in it by convincing Russ to attack Magnus, but Magnus could surrendered and been taken back to Terra, why did he have to fight back? The Thousand Sons were good guys and an extra primarch on the loyalists side could have ended the HH faster and with better results. Why does the Emperor worry about sorcery anyways? He uses sorcery all the time.

 

I don't want this to sound like a rant but to think of the possibilites and advantages of Magnus not turning to Chaos and joining the Emperor. Besides does anyone agree with me?

 

Yes Magnus was loyal to the Emperor and was forced to turn traitor in order to save himself and his legion. He went against the Emperors decree which deserved him being arrested, not being attacked.

 

Also the Emperor did not practise Sorcery, he was an amazingly powerful Psyker but did not use sorcery.

 

And yes its plausable to say that Magnus was second only to the Emperor in terms of his Psychic abilities.

[Tutteman]

But the Emperor only sent the Wolves to bring him back. It was Horus who convinced Russ that he should be killed. And on the note of Magnus' loyalites. I would say that his first loyality was no the Emperor, it was his magics. Otherwise he would have just taken the darn bus to go and warn the Emperor. ;)

 

He only used socery to reach the Emperor because he wanted to prove it was useful. If he'd truely been 100% loyal he would have not been practising it after Nikea at all!

[The Emperor's Champion]

The thing is, the Emperor never allowed sorcery. The Emperor allowed psychic power to be utilised, but sorcery is when a pact is made with a Warp-being to gain power. That's why he forbade it, as you can never tell whether you're the one with the upper hand in the bargain.

 

Do we have evidence about this difference between sorcery and psychic powers? It's the first time I've seen such a distinction made.

There's very clearly a difference, they just never explain what it is.

 

I just figure it works the same as D&D where you have Divine Magic (Acts Of Faith), Arcane Magic (Sorcery), and Psionics (Psychic Powers) each as seemingly the same thing to the casual observer but with fundamental technical differences.

I'd not be totally surprised if 40k started using Eldritch powers and Incarnum too.

 

 

 

I'm pretty amused by all the new guys coming up with their "revolutionary" insights like "ZOMG Magnus is a good guy!" and other stuff which we've known for many years now :blink:

I guess it's not their fault tho. They don't have easy access to all the information since GW stopped printing it for some retarded reason :blush:

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

once you read the Collected Visions, you will see that Magnus wasnt the misunderstood good guy, or some victim of fate, but willing chose his path to follow, and lied to the emperor on his actions.

 

until you read that, your only reading half the story.

 

Magnus was a traitor, end of story. (which sucks, as i did like the earyl belief and irony of Magnus...)

and the Wolves were to bring Magnus to terra, whatever the cost. Horus modified those orders.

 

Wolf Lord Kieran

(now lets have the flood of people saying that someone named "wolf lord" might be biased)