Magnus

[Hobo Willie]

SOMEONE NAMED WOLF LORD MIGHT BE BIASED.

[Tutteman]

Hmm....Maybe Magnus isn't the misunderstood good guy. Maybe he's just the bad guy with a good PR team :blink:

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Hmm....Maybe Magnus isn't the misunderstood good guy. Maybe he's just the bad guy with a good PR team ;)

 

with GW releasing only half the story, and releasing the other half in a few high $$ sources, means every other day i get into this arguement on Magnus. the thing is, even as a wolf player (gasp gasp), i liked the irony and tragedy of Magnus the betrayed. sad thing is after reading Collected Visions he is a traitor, plain and simple.

 

and thanks Hobo. ;)

 

WLK

[Sons of Horus]

just wait for prospero burn and it's sequel <_<

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

oh trust me, i have wet the rug a few times just thinkning about it already...

 

WLK

[JEFF4i]

oh trust me, i have wet the rug a few times just thinkning about it already...

 

WLK

 

And so, Russ said to Magnus...

 

"Brother, please, I know I've beaten the snot out of, yield. All our father asks of us is not to defy him, we can be friends even."

 

Magnus: "WaahhhhH! No! Wahhhh! I do what I want! Whateva, whateva, I do what I want...you don't know me!"

 

True story y'know, Burning of Prospero will show ya.

[Hobo Willie]

Uh, I sincerely hope not.

 

The way I see it playing out, is that once the Thousand Sons fire back or resist Russ' execution of Magnus, the Space Wolves are going to get indignant with "we are following orders, something you apparently can't do" dogma while the Thousand Sons are going to play the "What the hell are you doing?" card and it's going to snowball from there.

 

If they do make it a 2-dimensional "the Thousand Sons are evil wolves in sheep's clothing" and "the Space Wolves are paragons of all that is just and right," I think the books will be a huge disappointment (at least for me). This is the falling from grace of what was regarded as the one of the most loyal Legions at the hands of another very loyal Legion, due to the manipulations of the Arch-Heretic and the headstrong nature of both Magnus and Russ. And it should be handled as such.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

If they do make it a 2-dimensional "the Thousand Sons are evil wolves in sheep's clothing" and "the Space Wolves are paragons of all that is just and right," I think the books will be a huge disappointment (at least for me).

 

On the contrary, I would expect the Burning of Prospero from the SWs' perspective to be just that, hence why there will be one book on it from their perspective and one book on it from the Thousand Sons' perspective. Doing a fair and objective analysis kind of defeats the object of having 2 books.

[Hobo Willie]

I don't think so.

 

I think if the Space Wolf book is done from the perspective of a Space Wolf wondering if the Thousand Sons truly deserved this fate (perhaps a latent psychic) while the Thousand Sons book is done from the perspective of a Thousand Son whom believes that this is the consequences of their sins (someone who burnt their ability to be a psyker out or doesn't have the ability) would be pretty damned awesome.

[Adam_R]

I LOLED in the Visions of Darkness series when it basically stated that a major factor for the Horus Heresy's success was that Magnus accidently busted all the safety wards on the Warp Gate the Emperor was dabbling with under the Imperial Palace, thus tying up the Big Man himself, his Custodes and the Sisters of Silence for the WHOLE Heresy.

 

Malcador 'Knock Knock - Err something has happened on Devlan'

 

Emperor 'Listen you noob i told you im busy! *Backround noises*'

 

Malcador 'But this is - Was that the sound of 12 Blood Thirsters in the backround? Whats with all the purple and black lighting?'

 

Emperor 'Shutup noob, and send more Custodes in, i need a breather'

 

Also what was the Emperor doing with all the Librarians he had recalled from all the legions? Making his FailGate?

[Marshal Rohr]

I'm four pages late but whatever.

 

Magnus was loyal to the Emperor. How many times did you disobey your parents as a child, huh? Oh, yeah, that puts it in perspective. Daddy said don't stick your finger into an electrical socket, but you being much wiser said 'forget that' and did it anyway. Unfortunately, instead of burning your finger, you unknowingly allow hordes of daemons and the raw stuff of Chaos to spill into your basement and your daddy's elite bodyguard have to go fight them off. Tisk Tisk.

 

This makes your father so unhappy, he sends your brother to beat the crap out of you.

 

 

The Emperor sent Russ to punish Magnus for disobeying him, not for being a traitor. Magnus thought he could conquer sorcery, and had to pay for the consequences. He turned to Chaos, not out of personal gain, but necessity.\

 

@Adam-R: Don't use 1337-speak

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

@marshal2crusaders: i think your analogy of a child disobeying his father might be a little off...magnus wasnt a child when he was warned of the dangers of the warp. he was a fully grown adult. and a fully grown adult should responsibility of his actions. especially when he almost destroys a planet while using the tools he was told not to.

 

i see this as when i was younger, my father taught me how to properly use a pistol. now he didnt need to tell me never to point the pistol at another human being unless in danger, but he did anyway. that constant teaching taught me to reflexily point the pistol to the floor when even holding it around other people. i have never accidently fired that pistol in the general direction of a human being (and thankfully never AT a human being)

 

magnus is warned about the dangers of the warp. he then ignores the warnings and unleashes daemon in the imperial palace. there is no way that could be a "slight mishap", or anything less then betraying his promise to the emperor.

maybe my father should have had a "word" with magnus.

 

WLK

[Marshal Rohr]

The thing about their Primarchs is for all their prowess and skill, they are little more than children. They are insecure and petty, all of them. Granted its on another scale as are all things with Primarchs.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

i began my lessons at age 11.

little more than a child myself.

 

WLK

[bc99]

Magnus was clearly a traitor, and a pawn of Tzeentch. He believed he could control the power of the warp, but was wrong. Once he realized this, he threw in whole heartedly and now reigns supreme on a demon world. Doesn't sound like a good guy to me?

 

Some stuff from the CSM codex:

 

The first sentence under Sorcerers: "A space marine librarian who pledges his soul to Chaos becomes a sorcerer..."

 

Under the Ahriman entry: "Knowing that no man, be he the lowest beggar or the mightiest Primarch, could truly withstand the temptations of Chaos once they began to dabble in it's power, the Emperor unleashed the Space Wolves against Prospero".

 

Magnus had probably been a puppet to Tzeentch's machinations for years, such are the plots woven by the Architect of Fate.

[Pacific81]

magnus is warned about the dangers of the warp. he then ignores the warnings and unleashes daemon in the imperial palace. there is no way that could be a "slight mishap", or anything less then betraying his promise to the emperor.

maybe my father should have had a "word" with magnus.

 

WLK

 

But then using that same analogy, might you not point a pistol at someone if you thought that it might save the life of someone who you hold dear to you above anyone else? :lol:

[The Emperor's Champion]

His slight mishap comes from him trying to warn The Emperor of Horus' betrayal. His psionic powers couldn't do it so he had to resort to sorcery to send the message. The sorcery inadvertently messed up the wards protecting the Golden Throne and allowed demons to break through.

 

There's not a drop of malice in his actions.

[bc99]

There's not a drop of malice in his actions.

 

Except for the part where he wholeheartedly gives in to Chaos...

 

Sure it appears he struggled to the end, but he was already gone. Trying to warn the Emperor, and then it just happens that his sorcery "accidentally" destroys the wards protecting the Golden Throne? I see Tzeentch's hand in this. It was probably a plot hatched years and years before the Heresy. His "dabbling" in the dark arts of sorcery, his already extremely mutated physical features (corrupted by Tzeentch at a young age?), his belief that he could master the warp, and his disobeying the Emperor TWICE points to his corruption and inevitable fall. He didn't start that way, but when it was go time he threw in with the Ruinous Powers without batting an eye (single, cyclopean eye at that).

 

And really, this is all moot, as Magnus is a Demon Prince who resides on the Planet of Sorcerers in the Eye of Terror. Yeah he's a good guy!

[Hobo Willie]

Disobeying does not always equate to betrayal.

 

Your analogy is really quite poor. But it does show your opinion on that matter quite well. You don't really see anything from Magnus's point of view, which makes your own quite biased. Magnus was told to stop but not told why he should stop. Sure, he knew of the Warp but it doesn't mean he knew of the Chaos gods. It is stated nowhere that he knew practicing sorcery was the road to damnation, he saw it as another tool to defeat the Emperor's enemies. In fact, he kept practicing because he wanted to show it's merit to the Emperor. The thing is, he wasn't a child. He was an adult set in his ways, and without an explanation other than "it's bad" he wasn't going to stop. If someone came up to me and said "Warhammer 40k is bad, stop playing NOW." I'm not just gonna stop playing unless they could outline why it is bad.

 

As for the Ahriman quote, good job on just quoting a single line stating that the Emperor knew that sorcery equated to damnation and missing the two paragraphs prior stating the Thousand Sons viewpoints on such matters. Such as the important viewpoint that sorcery could be controlled with proper willpower and knowledge. But a lack of knowledge as to where the practice of sorcery would take them. You guys forget that hindsight is 20/20 and you have the advantage of knowing what's to happen. Even though it is said in the codex that the Emperor ordered the Space Wolves to destroy them, in the HH books, it is stated that the Emperor ordered Russ to bring Magnus to Terra and that Horus changed the order to outright execution.

 

What the Space Wolves attacked on Prospero were Astartes loyal to the Emperor. Yes, they had disobeyed the Emperor, but they hadn't worked against him. Magnus tried to stop Horus's corruption. And then tried to warn the Emperor of that corruption. Does that sound like a traitor? The point that Magnus was a traitor for disobeying the Emperor is only accurate if you ignore the above. Magnus was loyal right up until he called out for salvation and Tzeentch answered him.

 

As for the theory that Tzeentch manipulated them, he most probably did. Little manipulations here and there. Whispers in their ear that "this isn't so bad, keep going!" But in the same vein, the Space Wolves were Tzeentch's pawns as well. They were Tzeentch's vessel that put the Thousand Sons into his open arms willingly.

 

If only the Emperor had informed His sons of the Chaos gods and warned them to watch for their treachery/signs, most of this wouldn't have happened. Instead, their ignorance allowed them to fall one by one.

[The Emperor's Champion]

^This

 

No one's saying he's good after The Emperor(technically Horus?) forces him to finally join Chaos., but up until the Space Wolves show up on his doorstop he's one of the good guys.

[bc99]

As for the theory that Tzeentch manipulated them, he most probably did. Little manipulations here and there. Whispers in their ear that "this isn't so bad, keep going!" But in the same vein, the Space Wolves were Tzeentch's pawns as well. They were Tzeentch's vessel that put the Thousand Sons into his open arms willingly.

 

And this!

 

At what point did Magnus realize, he was learned and intelligent, that he had been duped/played/manipulated by Tzeentch? When did he realize he had done wrong?

 

Disobedience does not always mean betrayal, but this time it did. Had Magnus ceased his his infernal studies then none of this would have been important. None of this would have come to pass. The problem is, though, he didn't stop. He continued to delve into the warp-secrets and the outcome is history.

 

I think I got my point across well, I'm not denying what Magnus may have "thought", but we all know well and good that he has thrown in to Chaos. It may be the tragedy of it all, but then again Horus was the most trusted of all the Primarchs and he was turned. In the end, the Ruinous Powers played their hand quite well, what with Russ being sent to Prospero and all. What an ally the Emperor would have had in Magnus and his legion! That was not to be...

 

Good discussion, I see your points and understand your opinion, I hope you see mine as well. Thanks for the post.

[Hobo Willie]

I don't think he realized it until afterward, to be honest. If he had beforehand, he would have either shunned sorcery altogether or wholeheartedly joined in with the Word Bearers in bringing the Chaos gods' plans to fruition. Though it is hard to believe that he wouldn't have seen some signs, but hindsight is always 20/20. No one likes the idea that they have been manipulated.

 

I do believe that Magnus was wholeheartedly for the Emperor until he realized he was going to die at his brother's hands by the Emperor's orders (not realizing they were, in fact, Horus's orders). That realization is what caused him to quit the Emperor's cause forever. My reasons for this have been stated several times by several people and even in the Index Astartes: Thousand Sons. I still cite Magnus's attempts to stop Horus's corruption. As well as the few mentions of the Thousand Sons in the books thus far put them as 'very loyal.'

 

I guess we'll finally see how Magnus felt with the two books forthcoming, but I do not feel I'll be proven wrong.

 

Good show, sir.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

@pacific81: i havent yet found that answer, and hope never to.

then again, if my pistol could end entire worlds in a single round maybe i shold holster it for good.

 

@hobo willie: most fo the reason why i feel the way i have posted is my contempt for modern society's need to explore why every madman performed his action, and then turns them into a victim of circumstance or fate.

by making a person a victim of fate, you remove their control of the situation, and the blame for their actions.

(and yes, i do see the world in a collection of greys, not just black and white)

 

WLK

[The Emperor's Champion]

I don't see it as a madman who was a victim of fate at all. Simply a perfectly sane being who was perhaps manipulated by malevolent godlike entities, that he was unaware of, into doing something with the exact opposite result of what he intended. If he WASN'T manipulated by the Chaos Gods then it was just purely a mistake on his part that had the opposite of the intended effect.

[Rain]

I think all of the traitor primarchs are in one way or another "victims of fate" that's what makes the 40k plot interesting beyond most good and evil stories. Magnus was trying to help the Emperor, he just did it in a way that was counterproductive.

 

He wasn't treasonous, he was just misguided. It's not just him either, even the fervent Word Bearers, who did turn of their own volition only did so because when the Emperor (who they worshiped as a god) reprimanded them, causing their entire worldview to collapse in on itself. Are the Chaos Legions evil as far as evil is commonly understood? Sure, but they did not start out that way nor did they ever mean to become what they are, that's the whole point.