The way we go to war.

[Bjorn Darkwolf]

First off i want preface this topic by saying i want to work with everyone to help us all (including myself) fully understand our codex and units. because it is very different from anything else out there. I know most of us have been playing it since it was released in the late 90s, and some even longer. But with the change of editions, and the changing armies around us, i think a discussion on our forces can help all of us. Maybe we are so set in our ways we did not think about a different approach, or maybe we had but not in depth. In the end here, i think a discussion here will help, no matter what our background. With this in mind it is important that we all understand i am not looking for people to leave posts about how "LEET" their armies are, and how they have not lost a game in five years. Obviously these are not truths, and it honestly does not matter. What i want to discuss here is how space wolves fit into general space marine tactica, and how they differ. I want to discuss what works, and why; and of course what does not work and most importantly why not. In short please leave your ego at home, i understand it helps on battle field but we don't need it here, it will only make things more difficult.

 

i figure we can talk about one unit at a time, so we can all keep focused and not have everyone arguing about the pros and cons of ten different units all at the same time. I'll start off by presenting the unit the way i see it, and use it. Then you guys can contribute by arguing, suggesting and tweaking what i have put out there.

 

lets start off with Grey Hunters. As they are a mainstay unit and we are all required to run them in some form in our armies, we must all have an opinion on them, and an idea of how they should/ cloud be outfitted and used.

 

GREY HUNTERS

 

These are obviously our version of Tactical squad. Which means its main features are versatility and durability. True we do lack some of the Codex SM options, and are thus in a way limited, but in the two main aspects as i see them we are actually stronger. The lack of a heavy weapon is in my opinion more of a blessing than a curse, and my reasoning on that is by loosing the heavy weapon we loose the choice keep our a GH pack in the far or mid rear of our line, where we are leaving them use the fire of one weapon. Instead we can choose to make them an amazing fire support squad, or a close combat oriented kill team. the other option is what i tend to do with them, playing off of their versatility, and equipping them to do a little of both.

 

I tend to keep my packs ten marines strong, and equip them with bolters, then both a meltagun and a power weapon. i also mount them in rhino so i can get them where i want realetivly easily. Keeping your packs together will allow them to combine fire and ensure that they at least cripple a target.

 

After one round of shooting they can then engage close units in close combat, or they can continue to unload massed bolter and meltagun fire onto their targets.

 

now i have debated recently swapping out a meltagun for a flamer, and really racking up the wounds they can put out that way, but in the end decided that a meltagun was a better choice because of its ability to deal with vehicles, armor, multi-wound characters, and high toughness creatures.

 

so in summery i use them in a support role, to units like blood claws and wolf guard. tanking advantage of how versatile they are, and being comfortable with them inmost battlefield situations.

 

 

So now please post your thoughts, let us know how you do it and why? do you take smaller packs, do you go all melee, or all ranged? and please tell us why and how it works for you.

[Wena]

I have never found the GH to be a mainstay choice in my armies. I use them in squads of 6 and upgrade to bolters. In less than 2000 pt. armies I only use 2 squads and in 2000+ I use 3 squads. I have considered adding 1 power weapon or 1 melta gun to each squad but have never actually had the extra points to facilitate either.

 

I use the GH to collect objectives and the rest of my army to prevent the opponent from collecting objectives. In KP games I hide them because they die too quick.

 

My 2 cents :D

 

Wena

[hendrik]

how about adding in a wolf guard pack leader for the extra leadership and give him a combiflamer for that extra punch;)

[Ullr Direfang]

i tend to run two full squads of grey hunters. i like their feel, as the main stay that is. i love the ability to be both an assault troop or fire support. i tend to run both squads @ 10 marines, bolters, plasma gun, and power weapon and a power fist. their main job is to take objective together or support a objective taking unit (blood claws, termies).

every now and then, mostly depending on what i am facing, i go with three, smaller squads, usually in rhinos/razorbacks. one of the squads in tooled for close combat, with plasma pistols and two power weapons, and a melta, the others are smaller version of the 10 marine squads.

 

in the 10 man squads i very rarely give a pack leader, but if i run the close combat squad, one is usually in there (in the rhino of course). usually he adds more plasma and, once again depending on what i am facing, a power fist or weapon.

[Wolf89]

Well, the way all wolves should go to war, is with 3 vindicators right behind them... :wacko:

 

Grey hunters are my favorite marine troop hands down. We've got any and all options any other troop squad would dream about and then some. A WGPL, while at times might be tight on points, is almost a must for this squad, especially when not lead by an HQ. He provides the needed Ld bonus, extra firepower, CC capabilities, and in general why not.

 

I use mine almost always with bolter/ccw, no reason to give them strictly bolt pistols, especially when true grit is almost as good, plus you get all those nice extra shots in before the counter as well as RANGE fire. Nothing like getting out of a rhino, drop pod, or similar and unleashing 2 PP's, special weapon, bunch of bolters, and whatever the PL is carrying, not to mention they have power fists, weapons, and other sorts mixed in there for when/if you charge.

[WolfLordLars]

With the release of 5th, I run 2-3 GH packs with the following stats (and in the following order) - I always try to max squads too, so all are 10 strong

 

- 7 Bolter/CCW, 1 Melta, 1 Bolter/PF, 1 BP/PF

- 8 Bolter/CCW, 1 Plasma, 1 PP/CCW

- 9 Bolter/CCW, 1 Flamer

- 6 BP/CCW, 1 Melta, 1 PP/CCW, 1 BP/PW, 1 BP/PF

 

The first squad is my typical "GH" build, and what I recommend for most games. Walk/Run up, unload in their face, dare them to charge you. It can do a great many things for me, and most of those things it can do very well.

 

Second is my "shooty" GH build, which can even do well in CC against non-power armor armies. This one is great out of a pod.

 

Third is my 'troop choice' shooty build. Its cheap and just there to blow things away or hold objectives.

 

The last is my "Assault" GH build, which I should probably use more often. Used alot like blood claws, but able to hold their own for longer IMHO.

 

 

I prefer to keep an even mix of GH to BC in my lists, so I will rarely field more than 2 GH packs. If I have to choose between BC and GH, I go with GH.

[littlbitz]

I love Grey Hunters, I currently can run up to 3 packs in my army, but these are a bit on the small side, so I am working on beefing them up abit.

 

Currently I use alot of Drop Pods, so close range fire power is the order of the day, so I always take the full compliment of Special weapons.

 

In a 1500 point game, I run 2 packs which look something like this: 8 Grey hunters with a melta gun, 2 plasma pistols,5 with bolters, a Power weapon, and a Power fist. A wolf guard pack leader in Terminator armor with a combi-plasma, Powerfist, runic charm and a wolfpelt.

All in a Pod (with a deathwind launcher if I have the points).

 

Now you will noitce that I still have 2 open slots in the pod, I typically stick a Wolfguard Battle leader with Terminator armor, Runic Charm, Lightning Claw, Assault cannon and Wolfpelt.

 

That is the Core of my Army at that points level, and I add other units from there.

 

I used to use a Wolfguard Retinue but I have found it a bit pricey at 1500 points so, I typically don't include it till I hit the 1750 mark.

 

My 3rd pack is armed a little differently with a Plasma gun, in the pack. I like Meltas and Plasma for my Grey Hunters, I save the Flamers for my BloodClaws where thier lower WS isnt a factor.

[The_Betrayed_Spacewolf]

easy they should drop in behind enemy lines. fill out an entire squad give the a power weapon and power fist to make sure they take out any charging foes. however for that important drop shooting give them some plasma pistols, a melta gun or plasma gun to give a total of 4 plasma shots from the squad. also make sure you drop a runepriest and a wolf guard pack leader as well for an extra 2 plasma shots or a much needed cover save.

 

if your enemy is denied a heavy support option early then kudos your squad has done its job if not they will take most if not all of your enemies fire to get rid of that deadly squad running around in their back yard.

[Bjorn Darkwolf]

All of these are good points, i my self do also use a "Plasma Death Pack," which is 6 bolter/chainsword Grey Hunters, and 2 Plasma Pistols and a plasmagun. led by a pack leader with a combi-plasma.

 

because i don't see many people equipping strictly for assault, i am going to run with the strengths and weaknesses of our GH in both fire support roles and mixed roles. (also a couple people mentioned pack leaders, i want to talk about them separately because they are applicable to so many different units.)

 

The number one problem i see with Gearing up the way we all tend to, is the sheer cost. with a base points value of 17 per model, (+1 for bolter) leads you at 180pts. that is bear bones, no Pack leader, no assault weapons no power weapons. and a meltagun and a power weapon (+10 and +10) and we are two hundred. Drop the points for the bolter on meltagun model, and leave the power weapon with a bolt pistol. and we are 198. this is a relatively high points cost for this squad, add a Rhino (+35) and then think about a pack leader and you are well over 250 points. i am not saying we are more expensive than we ought to be, its just it makes it very easy to be out numbered, even by other space marine chapters.

 

So what i want to get into is how do we deal with that? obviously if we have a grey hunter pack running around by itself it is going to get run over. all it takes is a board heavy weapon team with nothing else to shoot at and its toast, or a couple of infantry squads that happen to be in range. I deal with this by putting mine in rhinos and keeping them together. for the reasons i listed earlier, this gives me the ability to combine fire, and the protection from being cut off and surrounded. it also makes my opponet think, he either has to send a a formidable amount of his own forces to deal with the grey hunter advance, or he has to ignore it, and focus on the rest of my army. either way it puts him in a place he does not want to be in.

 

the next big threat to the fire support role is the players turn following the grey hunters firestorm. as i see it, we get to move in and unload a world of hurt that is potentially devastating, but after that we are very vulnerable to return fire. especially blasts and template weapons, (i am going with the mounted Grey Hunters here. as i would hard pressed to being talked in to hoofing them across the board. [if that is working for you then please enlighten me]) so if we don't absolutely cripple them in that turn we are assured to take just as many casualties as we just inflicted if not more. this is where for me Blood Claws and a HQ are more survivable for me then our Grey Hunters, as the turn they launch their assault they are safely in combat, and protected from enemy fire, they have to charge to support their forces. (which just makes me grin wolfishly) i have tried bunkering with my rhinos with mild success, but the more i cluster behind a rhino the more i am susceptible to blasts and flamers. (the second part of that is especially bad for me personally because my sparing partner here plays salamanders, so twin-linked flamers and heavy flamers are the order of the day.)

 

the last weakness is mild, and does not come up as much, though it does occasionally for me. is if we mix our weaponry and try and be as well rounded as we can we end up realizing that we are not a dedicated assault troop, and though it is the beauty of the unit, it can also really hurt when put up against a unit like howling banshees, terminators, Khorne Berserkers, and or Nids. ( i would mention orks, but for some reason i have never hand any sort of an issue with them. i think it has to do with the amount of casualties the sustain before landing combats, and the counter attack bonus we get paired with our higher initiative.) and the reason i think this one comes up less, is their are fewer assault squads out their that can really hurt a Tactical squad than their ranged squads, so they are easier to work around.

 

so again mainly looking at our vulnerability to return fire, (not ruling out a counter assault) what do you all do to prevent/minimize this?

[Grey Mage]

Everything in the Space Wolf army is about efficiency. We have the ability to take a huge number of bells and whistles, to customize for most any situation.... and we pay for it. However if you choice pick a few areas to grab options in and take what you need without the extras youll find that they do well for their points cost.

 

Example: 10 Grey hunters, no bolters, 2x Powerweapon, Meltagun, in a rhino- 235 pts. Good CC unit with an antitank punch.

10 Grey Hunters, Frag+Krak Grenades, 2x Powerweapon, 2x Plasma Pistol, Meltagun, in a rhino- 285pts. Overkill.

 

Its finding the balance between what gets the job done, and what gets a target painted on your head that makes all the difference.

 

Ill also note that while our units are more expensive the simple fact that they are worth their cost makes all the difference. With the current editions emphasis on Kill Points it actually makes us stronger because we have fewer points for the enemy to rack up and less problem taking them for ourselves.

[Bjorn Darkwolf]

i agree, i think we are worth every point we pay, and some times worth more. what i want to put together here is a discussion on how best to use our forces. minimizing upgrades is a good way to try and maximize what you can bring to the table, and remembering what you want each squad to do when equipping them, can help with making your list as efficient as possible.

 

understanding your point, was you example of the melee Grey Hunters squad, strictly and example or is it something you use on frequent basis? if you do use them, how so, do you mount up, or foot slog across the field? how do they get the job done for you? (not to sound disapproving, i am genuinely interested in what you do to make them a better choice than whats been discussed so far?)

[Grey Mage]

Well it was an example of how you can go overboard on squad, but I do use them regularly.

 

I really do like them.... they are a CC oriented pack and yes I do mount them up. However I pick my targets with them. An example would be yesterday I used them *the 235pt pack* in a 1500 pt game vs orks. He had six megaarmored nobs in a truck with combi rockets and powerclaws. I rolled the rhino up adjacent to his truck, deployed and melta'd the sucker. AT fire took out the two Boyz trucks next to it, and a whirlwind managed to scatterto cover half the Nobz and half a truck squad wounding alot of the boyz and putting two on the nobz *removing one* A bit of supporting fire from a range grey hunter pack saw another one drop from bolters and plasmagun. I then concentrated on the boyz and other elements of his army with my other forces.

 

He attacked me. Four Nobz in megaarmor with powerclaws is a formidable sight. I got counterattack, kill two of them before they got to strike back, lost three hunters in return. The next turn I Wiped another base *two wounds* off, and wounded the other.... lost three hunters in return. The next round of combat he was dead. I consider that a good return for investment.

 

Ive done the same thing with regular terminator squad, hard boyz, tyranid warriors *especially with extended carapace* etc. At the very worst Mellee grey hunters are a scoring squad of assault marines, at their best they are rock hard enemy killers. I expect to lose most of them, maybe all of them, but I also expect they will wittle the enemy down to nothing.

 

I consider dropping one on occaision to add in a pack leader with a power weapon and a combiweapon, but it seems that the extra 45-50 pts would just mean that my opponent has a better chance of making his points back over time.

 

Now against large hordes I will boy to the supremacy of bloodclaw shock troops, as they have the initial attacks to wittle the enemy down. However after that initial charge they seem to find attrician at a rate similar to that of orks when fighting other mellee units.

[littlbitz]

I always go overboard with my GH packs, but I rarely find it hurting me. In fact quite the opposite.

 

The key for my army is fighting with the "pack" mentality and using other packs in support of the GH. GH are great at receiving the charge, if you have a cheap unit of BC in support of the GH for counter attack your opponent is going to have some difficult choices to make.

 

Also the cheaper BC packs seem to offset the expense of the GH packs.

[Marek Grimfang]

I go overboard on Grey Hunters as well. 40k for me is all about mass amount of marines rapid firing bolters. Hand Down.

 

So I am gearing towards this kind of list so I can pick and choose as I go, but field 10 packs in an Apoc game.

 

Basically like this:

 

6x Packs as follows

WGL with Power Fist and Bolter

1x GH with Melta Gun

8x GH's with Bolters

 

2x Packs as follows:

WGL with Power weapon and Bolter

1x GH with Plasma Gun

8x GH's with Bolters

 

2x Packs as follows:

WGL with Power Weapon and Bolt Pistol

1x GH with Flamer

8x GH's with Bolters

 

I like Tac Squads and GH's are what we have. There are 6 redundant Melta Gun packs, 2 that are closer range with Flamer templates, and 2 that will sit a little back with the Plasma Guns.

 

Ill also be throwing in Rhinos and/or Drop Pods, and some wargear to tweak them up a little, but not too much. I like mass infantry and dont like to lavish on major upgrades.

 

A few Dreds will also be chosen and Land Speeders.

 

And I like Long Fangs, so there will be around 3x packs of these, but not before I paint up three Vindicators!

[Grey Mage]

None of those three pack set ups are what Id call overboard actually. Bolters, special weapon, and pack leader with some CC in each. You dont load up on the CC weapons for the hunters and the pistols on top of it. Not how Id run them, but since your not near their maximum point cost they all look relatively "lean". I am curious why youve decided on 9+pack leader though?

[Marek Grimfang]

Overboard in relation to not taking Blood Claws.

 

Ive been tossing around some fluff on an all GH Company.

 

But in order to get as many models onto the table, I have to really watch how my points are spread on wargear.

 

As far as WGPL, Ive always used them. Ya they are expensive, but the extra attack and Ld help.

[Level]

I think that the real strength of the Grey Hunters is that they can roll up in a rhino or drop pod in, shoot a full compliment of weapons and then take the charge without getting broken up while still doing some damage back. True grit and counter attack make our GH into formidable opponents in CC especially as they can take a nice compliment of special weapons. no one likes to charge into a squad where there are two power fists waiting for them, and if the pack gets to strike back as if it is charging then so much the better.

 

In short, for me, the GH are the front line of the space wolves. They move into position, unload a hail of bolter and plasma fire to take out troops, or meltagun a vehicle to take it out and stand ready to take the incoming charge. By this I don't mean random fire but carefully selected targets of course.

 

The biggest mistake that one can make with your grey hunters is to leave them too exposed. They are hard as nails but will still go down if they are exposed to overwhelming fire or low AP weaponry. The trick here is using their transports as cover while still allowing you to take your shots. It is less easy with a drop pod as the scatter can sometimes put you in a situation where you can not get full cover but certainly when using rhinos it is important that the only target that is presented is the armour while still leaving your hunters the line of site on their target. What you want to essentially achieve is a situation where the shooting from your GH pack/s will incapacitate the chosen target/s while your packs are still protected on the other side of whatever vehicle got them to the position they are in. The following turn leaves your opponent with the choices of shooting at the vehicle to get it out of the way and or charging round it to stop your GH from shooting again.

 

True grit and counter attack will help significantly and your pack should be able to hold up and also return quite a bit of damage to anything that charged them. I usually use packs of 8 hunters with 6 bolter and ccw and 2 power fists and bolters, or one power fist and one power weapon. the power weapon always gets a bolt pistol to maximise his attacks. Most of my Gh packs are with meltaguns because I feel that it makes them more flexible this way. flamers are reserved for BC's and plasmaguns can work if the pack is geared for infantry killing. The rule of thumb however is to always maximise on the special weapons. I don't use plasma pistols since they lost the double tap because I think they are expensive for what you get, but there is nothing wrong with them.

 

As far as a pack leader goes I reckon that for the 50 odd points you have to spend on him he is not worth it. my packs of 8 can stand up for themselves and I would much rather field an attack bike or a land speeder.

 

The final thing to mention is to make saure that your GH have support. putting a pack into the mix on their own is only going to lead to them being overwhelmed. make sure that your hunters are backed up by your blood claws and dreadnoughts. let the GH take the brunt of the damage from the enemy and then hit back with your hard hitting units.

 

That turned into something a little longer than I expected but there you have it. I love my grey hunter packs and they are truly the mainstay of my army. solid and reliable, flexible and dependable, if you use them properly they will carry the day time and again.

[Vassakov]

I've done numerous tacticas on my methodology behind my Grey Hunters - at the moment I have 4 packs plus a fifth on the sprue.

 

3x 6 Grey Hunters, 1 Meltagun, 1 Power Fist, 1 Power Weapon, Razorback w/Heavy Bolters and Storm Bolter. Just under 200pts.

 

2x 8 Grey Hunters, 1 Plasma gun, 1 Power Fist, 1 Power Weapon. Deathwind Pod.

 

The RB borne GH's are used a gunboat force, often running all three together in order to maximise firepower. They are usually capable of holding in assault against non-specialist units and pack enough of a punch when rapid firing to inflict considerable damage. They are often either supported by my BC + LRC combo or act as a seperate element in order to panic the foe.

[TheLastHuzzah]

First, I would like to say that this is a great idea, but we need to do it right.

 

Rather than using a single thread for all discussion; perhaps break the tactics out per unit. It's plain to see that the thread would get unmanageable if we open this to all units (look what we have for GH, and I'm sure other units can have just as much said about them). Perhaps rename this topic "The Way We Go to War, Space Wolf GH tactica"; and follow with other units.

 

After the thread is open for a week or two, lock it up, and at the risk of volunteering; take the collected information and put it into document form. Then would be the task of cutting out the excess/overlap and try to come up with a 1-2 page summary that covers all bases.

 

I'd be willing to give the GH one a shot and see if it is plausible for us to continue in the same way for each unit available to us.

 

Good idea or no?

 

-Huzzah

[Bjorn Darkwolf]

First off, hats off to Huzzah for coming forward and giving us some direction here.

 

When i started the tread, i had a feeling something like this would come up, and in the back of my head i guess i knew that this was going to become a much bigger project than i had anticipated. that being said, i now feel that we should continue with developing a good solid Tactica.

 

i will go ahead and rename this thread, as in my Preface i did intend to do continue on with each unit, i just did not realize how big this was going to be. we can continue to go about discussing Grey Hunters through the rest of the week. then sometime over the weekend i'll launch a new thread our next unit.

 

if we are going to do this we need to do it right, and we need to make sure we really do cover all the bases, and incorporate everything. Immediately that means we need some more good posts on melee Hunters. Thanks to GreyMage for your contribution thus far, especially about gearing your packs. Now if we can get some more battle field strategy, we will be set.

 

thanks in advance to everyone who is interested in participating in this growing project.

[Ranulf_Nightrunner]

Grey Hunters are a very flexible unit, which can be tailored to suit any opponent in terms of both special weapons and close combat weapons. Facing a horde, throw on a flamer and power weapons, facing Marines / Chaos, load up on plasma and power fists, they retain the flexibility of the Tactical squad too, with the full range of transport options.

 

At 1500pts i plan on running 2 packs of Grey hunters with Wolf guard leaders, as well as a plasma gun and 2 power weapons, I'll run them in drop pods, dropping onto objectives or behind enemy lines to catch the enemy in a pincer move. If they focus on the Grey hunters then they get hit by Blood claws and Wolf guard in the back. That's the plan at least! no plan survives contact with the enemy and all that.

[earthen]

why not just run 4x12 units of blood claws with 3 powerfists in each? with 4 attacks -always- - Load some up in LRs and have at it... i really dont see why you need grey hunters at all, can bolter shots really compete with that mess of melee?

[IronStorm]

I normally drop pod my grey hunters in so I usually load them up with all the special weapons because I'm never sure what they'll be facing. That used to be two powerfists, two plasma pistols, and a melta gun with the rest packing bolters. Gives me a nice punch on landing. However now with the change to the rules on powerfists I'm considering droping them for power weapons to get the extra attack.

 

The big change I'm looking at though is adding a wolf guard pack leader so I can throw a power fist on him since he has an more attacks. With drop pod capacity being higher as well I can put terminator armor on for just a few extra points and then slap either a combi bolter or storm bolter for even more killing power. Of course that increases the cost significantly so I'm still thinking about it.

[Marek Grimfang]

We have some existing tactica from the Links area of the SW Forum.

 

I think all they need is some tooling up for 5th Ed.

 

All the info each has will put together a good tactica combined with more recent ideas and responses.

[Wolf89]

why not just run 4x12 units of blood claws with 3 powerfists in each? with 4 attacks -always- - Load some up in LRs and have at it... i really dont see why you need grey hunters at all, can bolter shots really compete with that mess of melee?

 

Grey hunters are mandatory.