The way we go to war.

[muzzyman1981]

As Wolf89 said 1 pack of Grey Hunters is standard no matter what. However, on top of that...there are armies out there much better suited to close combat than Blood Claws and you need to have a good way to trying to "thin the herd" before you have to deal with them.

[Battle-Brother Wags]

Here are some thoughts concerning GHs and other things that have been addressed from my own experiences and reasoning, I hope it will add to the effort of this tactica, which I've been anxiously awaiting for some time.

 

First, a note on pack leaders. If we disregard for a moment the fact that we have to use an elite slot to get them in the first place, just remember that a Pack Leader is actually very similar in price to a basic tactical marine upgraded with terminator honors (this, of course, based on the old 4th edition codex). I fully expect that when our new 'dex comes out, pack leaders, whether built in or an optional upgrade, will be simiilarly in line with the cost of a vanilla tactical marine sarge. So really, if you think of it in that context, pack leaders aren't that much more expensive and they have A TON more options, most notably cheap PFs and WOLF PELTS!! Of course, if you need 3 elite slots for other things, that makes Pack Leader something that might need to be scrapped. Perhaps that conundrum can be better addressed in the tactica section specifically regarding Wolf Guard.

 

At any rate, speaking of wolf pelts (which every character that has access to MUST have), I believe that the most effective use of GHs is to shoot and receive the charge. If you can deny an enemy a huge bonus (like furious charge) by assaulting them first, then of course do so, but in general, I think that a properly kitted GH squad can always maximize damage by double tapping the enemy and then receiving the charge, since they will likely still get the charge bonus from their counterattack ability. It truly is the best of both worlds and one of the reasons I love GHs so much. As a side note, GHs got just that much better (indirectly) because a Rhino's Dozer Blades are much better in 5th than they were in 4th. Dozer Blades now work even when moving over 6", so now we can blast our ways through those buildings in spectacular fashion (I love how my mind's eye works) to pour forth our wolf brothers to unleash furious (and furry) death on the enemy.

 

A comment on Grey Hunters and Power Fists. As has been mentioned, the change in the rules for power fists has led me to scrap their use in my GH squads. I reserve them now for the pack leaders with their 2 base attacks. This is a further reason to have the pack leaders and you can sort of trade off the points needed for the pack leader by not equipping two GHs each with a PF. And if the Pack Leader has a wolf pelt, you actually don't sacrifice any power fist attacks if you get charged (PL 2 base attacks + 1 for counterattack + 1 for wolf pelt).

 

The more we talk about the topic of GHs, the more convinced I am that the true grit (bolters/CCW) and the Pack Leader w/ PF is all the close combat tooling they need if they are decked out for ranged attack, meaning Plasma Gun and 2x Plasma Pistols. I don't see any reason not to take this setup. The only unfortunate thing is that I end up playing against alot of people that hole up in cover, so they're getting alot of cover saves, but even then, a cover save isn't going to be as good as the regular power armor save, plus this load out will make short work of MCs as well, who don't get the benefits of cover as readily. A meltagun can be swapped in there if you think you're going to be facing alot of armor, but even then I find it annoying to waste the rest of the pack shooting at something that only one weapon has a chance of hurting. For this reason I generally designate my Grey Hunters to anti-infantry purposes. Feel free to disagree with me because I know I don't have the end-all and be-all knowledge on Grey Hunters and would love to learn from the further experiences of others as well.

 

And now we get to some of the questions I have that I hope this, or future, Space Wolf tactics can help me on. My biggest concern is that I have is that while Space Wolves are awesome in offense (attacking), I often find myself in a situation where moving forward is not necessarily the best. This happened just the other night when after putting down 5 objective counters, we rolled for first deployment/turn and my opponent made me choose deployment zones first which meant I went first. I chose the zone that had 2 objectives in it and one just outside it toward the center of the board. This meant that I could easily have 3 objectives in my control by the end of my first turns move. All three were in cover, but with the long range abilities of my enemy (Imperial Fists with a ton of lascannons and heavy bolters), just sitting in the cover would have led to my eventual doom. Is there really a way to play defensively with Space Wolves? Or must we always consider that the best defense is a good defense? I agree with that strategy except that in game terms the best defense being a good offense means moving your scoring units off the objectives you're trying to hold. . . I don't really want to accept that we have to go for a complete kill every mission. I used to do that, but that made every game the same basically. I'd actually like to pay attention to mission objectives and parameters. Is that viable as Space Wolves?

 

Ok, this post is forever long already. Sorry for the rambles. I'll close now.

 

Thanks.

 

*edit*

 

Help me overcome these concerns in my army list post! Thanks for the help! - http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=154632

[saphius]

I used to hate GHs in 4th, but in 5th I've started to like them and never leave without 2 squads of them, usually one in a RB and one in a pod, or both in Pods.

 

I typically run 8 in a pod with a WGBL in TDA. Reason being is a kit them, and 8 usually keeps alive for me while saving a few points, or letting me kit them out to kill anything. Usually a MG, 2PP, Bolters, and Possibly a PW. IMO dropping one Model for 2 PP is so worth it. Those pistols always seem to come in handy - Even against lightly armored foes they seem to kill just as much as a bolter (Wounding on 2s), and give me an additional attack in CC. Not to mention the tough unit/light vehicle killing ability. I don't ever run PG in squads unless I plan on sitting them back and shooting from 24 away. (So in my RB I might run 1 with 5 Bolters) The Melta is just so much more versatile (excluding range) and you won't kill yourself ever.

 

I also don't run fists hardly ever, usually having a Vendread or Ironclad close by for that kind of support.

 

I also hardly ever put WGPL with them as they are expensive, but mostly because I fill my elite slots with Dreads and scouts always. I have found much success with this strategy but it might also be because all my GH units in the fray almost always have an HQ with them.

 

I'm going to try the plasma death squad against a friend this week to see how it goes. (6 in a RB with LC and Twin PG, a PG, and 2 PP, with 1 PW) I still think the MG is a better option than the PG, but would like sheer volume of AP shots just to see how it works. Expensive, can be fragile, but I think if you use them as a support unit to something bigger and more survivable (large BC squad in a LR) they will cause many problems for foe while not being to tempting of a target. Stay in cover best you can and blast your enemy when your BCs hit the line.

[Grey Mage]

why not just run 4x12 units of blood claws with 3 powerfists in each? with 4 attacks -always- - Load some up in LRs and have at it... i really dont see why you need grey hunters at all, can bolter shots really compete with that mess of melee?

In a word- yes. Remember its not just the bolter fire. Its the better chance of hitting with said fire, its the lower rate of attrition in combat, and its the wider range of options. Sure 12 marines with three powerfists sounds devastating and terrible, and Ive seen it be so before.... and then you get hit by stuff that has power weapons and goes at I4.... like say charging burnaboyz, or Grey Knights.... and find that your pack is dead without a chance to ignore their armor. Even if you feel the need to go heavy on bloodclaws make sure you have powerweapons somewhere.

 

Theres a reason Termies can choose twin lightning claws after all.

[Het Masteen]

QUOTE (earthen @ Dec 10 2008, 10:21 PM)

why not just run 4x12 units of blood claws with 3 powerfists in each? with 4 attacks -always- - Load some up in LRs and have at it... i really dont see why you need grey hunters at all, can bolter shots really compete with that mess of melee?

 

Earthen: BC's are down to 3 attacks on the charge in 5th Ed, which limits their effectiveness in my opinion.

 

Battle-Brother Wags: I agree with your opinion on Pack Leaders. The changes to the new Marine Codex makes them very viable and cheaper than their vanilla counterparts when you take wargear into account.

 

For hunters I usually use a standard set-up. 7 man squad with meltagun, plasma pistol and power-weapon. The eight place either goes to a PL with SS/Th/WP or a GH with bolter/powerfist. If I'm podding, I usually put termie armour on the PL.

[Het Masteen]

Sorry double post............Can one of the mods remove this please?

[Wolf89]

QUOTE (earthen @ Dec 10 2008, 10:21 PM)

why not just run 4x12 units of blood claws with 3 powerfists in each? with 4 attacks -always- - Load some up in LRs and have at it... i really dont see why you need grey hunters at all, can bolter shots really compete with that mess of melee?

 

Earthen: BC's are down to 3 attacks on the charge in 5th Ed, which limits their effectiveness in my opinion.

 

Battle-Brother Wags: I agree with your opinion on Pack Leaders. The changes to the new Marine Codex makes them very viable and cheaper than their vanilla counterparts when you take wargear into account.

 

For hunters I usually use a standard set-up. 7 man squad with meltagun, plasma pistol and power-weapon. The eight place either goes to a PL with SS/Th/WP or a GH with bolter/powerfist. If I'm podding, I usually put termie armour on the PL.

 

BC's are still 4 attacks on the charge and counter (passed Ld test), but with powerfists it's only 3 since you need a 2nd powerfist to get the +1 attack for 2 ccw's.

 

Grey Hunters are THE unit, they really are, you could argue in 3rd and 4th that BC's were probably a better deal... but now, there's no question, there really isn't.