did the sy era terminators actually have a crux terminatus?

[hendrik]

this is something i've been wondering about for a while, but since you guys are the experts=)

since i believe the crux terminatus has a fragment of the emperors' armour in it, it allows the inv save

but what with heresy era terminators? did they have some sort of inv save or not since the emperor would still be wearing his armour.on the heresy terminators i've seen i can't see one so.

 

 

 

cheers, hendrik

[Reyner]

I always assumed that the invulnerable save because the armour was so damn heavy and well... good ^_^

[Pig Of Sparta]

So have I. In the fluff for the release of the 'new' termie models it said "...tactical dreadnought armour was developed from the suits of exo-armour, capable of withstanding intense heat, corrosion, pressure and even the collosal impact of orbital micro debris they were used to work on ships in orbit, the highly corrosive holds of chemical bulk carriers and within the high pressure casings of reactor shielding. These capabilities suitably enhanced were perfect for what was possibly planned to become the pinacle of space marine armour" (not an exact quote as I can't remember it word for word)

 

The crux terminatus wasn't awarded until after the siege of terra was broken. The Emperor decreed that his armour should be taken off and melted down and that a fragment of it was to be incorporated into each crux terminatus badge awarded to the veterans who fought in the siege as a testament to their courage. Pre-heresy terminator armour was formidable, but not as much as the current suits that the loyalists posses. Although CSM still get the invulnerable save, I like to think this is because their (inferior) suits of armour have spent considerable time in the warp and this has imbued them with greater protective qualities than they originally possesed.

 

My 2 cents

 

James

[The Colossus]

Just my two cents, but I thought that the Termy suits had portable shield generators in them. Probably wrong...

[Raulmichile]

They have inv save because they are pretty darn thick and contain lots of life mantenance systems and similar gadgets. That's why traitor terminators also have inv saves.

 

In earlier codexes, chaos armour were a little bit less advanced, it lacked targeters, teleport hommers and had less effective ammo feeding systems that didn't allow them to carry strom bolters and assault cannons (at that time twin bolters and reaper autocannons were a bit inferior). Now, both armour models are basically the same to keep things clear and easy.

[Razrhaghul]

the 5+ save wasn't added until chapter approve in the mid-3rd edition, to help represent how tough it was, since people would spend so much money and points on the things, which could get taken out with power-weapon wielders or plasma-heavy forces. in the fluff TDA is supposed to be the best of the best man-portable armor, yet the rules didn't quite relate this in game.

 

though older fluff ( I forget to tell you the truth) may have had the bit about the crux containing the slivers of the Emperor's armor, this crux=inv save, was more of a fluff justification as to why the termies were receiving the needed 5+inv save, as it had not existed in the previous incarnations of the rules.

to be honest the crux rule just kind of added to the 'holy-knights in space' theme that GW was trying to reach with marines, where superstition is partially used to explain why things work the way they do, though not inall cases is that the actual reason why

[Weiss]

I think the whole crux thing has been forgotten anyway - think of it this way: even if on average, each chapter only had 10 suits of terminator armour, that makes for ten thousand fragments that the emperor's armour was supposed to have been divided into - so even if the emperor's armour weighed half a metric ton, that would only be 5g of material per crux (and I seriously doubt it weighed that much anyway). Additionally, though production is torturously slow, I doubt there would be any of the Emperor's armour left after ten thousand years of production to be put into new suits.

 

I liked the story that went with the terminator rule change - the one about a space wolf wolf guard being trodden on by a Titan, then digging his way out of the rubble, trudging over to the nearby blood claws and resuming his conversation with the sergeant with the words "As I was saying...".

 

Basically terminator armour can turn even the most powerful of blows, hence the invulnerable save.

[Raulmichile]

A chapter has roughly 100 terminator suits, although due to casualties and the like practically no chapter is in possession of the full 100. Not counting all suits produced so far in 10 thousand years to me, an average of 40 to 70 per chapter is a good guess. So if the tiny part of the Emperor's armour theory is true, that tiny fraction has to be really really small.

[hendrik]

i know, thats one of the reasons i actually asked:)

[Leonaides]

yes, that fragment realy is very small. It only needs to be a tiny bit, 5g is probably far larger than they would use. I'd kind of imaging it like the British Victora Cross - can only be made with metal from some cannons captured a long time ago, and now we're down to enough to make another 70 (or so), period. Once those have been awarded thats it, no more VC's...

[rmoody100]

I think the whole crux thing has been forgotten anyway - think of it this way: even if on average, each chapter only had 10 suits of terminator armour, that makes for ten thousand fragments that the emperor's armour was supposed to have been divided into - so even if the emperor's armour weighed half a metric ton, that would only be 5g of material per crux (and I seriously doubt it weighed that much anyway). Additionally, though production is torturously slow, I doubt there would be any of the Emperor's armour left after ten thousand years of production to be put into new suits.

 

I liked the story that went with the terminator rule change - the one about a space wolf wolf guard being trodden on by a Titan, then digging his way out of the rubble, trudging over to the nearby blood claws and resuming his conversation with the sergeant with the words "As I was saying...".

 

Basically terminator armour can turn even the most powerful of blows, hence the invulnerable save.

 

I agree largely with this. However - half a metric ton = 500kg / 10000 = 500000g/10000 = 50g.

[rmoody100]

the 5+ save wasn't added until chapter approve in the mid-3rd edition, to help represent how tough it was....

 

Reintroduced in third edition. It was taken out in second edition. In first there was a refractor field save.

[Raulmichile]

In first, Termie armour was not so ubber, because it had a 2+ modified save (like in Warhammer Fantasy) with an additional 5+ inv save for a refractor field.

 

Those days marine armour had a 4+ modified save.... marine hit = dead marine.

[rmoody100]

In first, Termie armour was not so ubber, because it had a 2+ modified save (like in Warhammer Fantasy) with an additional 5+ inv save for a refractor field.

 

Those days marine armour had a 4+ modified save.... marine hit = dead marine.

 

Not true, in those days small arms were a lot more common in almost every army - a 4+ save made a difference. The change from Toughness 3 to Toughness 4 made a way bigger difference.

[Weiss]

I agree largely with this. However - half a metric ton = 500kg / 10000 = 500000g/10000 = 50g.

 

Very good point... 100g doesn't equal 1Kg... :D I'll just go back to bed now... :o

 

I continually get the impression that terminator armour is far rarer than you seem to think, Raulmichile. The Unforgiven chapters are cited as exceptional in that they field a full companies-worth of terminators (100). If every chapter had 70-100 suits then they would be nowhere near as rare as they are made to seem...

[Raulmichile]

In first, Termie armour was not so ubber, because it had a 2+ modified save (like in Warhammer Fantasy) with an additional 5+ inv save for a refractor field.

 

Those days marine armour had a 4+ modified save.... marine hit = dead marine.

 

Not true, in those days small arms were a lot more common in almost every army - a 4+ save made a difference. The change from Toughness 3 to Toughness 4 made a way bigger difference.

 

Not true. 4+ save didn't make a real difference. Almost any small arms had a -1AS modifier so, basically marines started with a 5+ save in most cases. Heavy weapons (due to AS modifiers) simply negated any chance whatsoever. It did make a difference in many situations like battles in space, poisonous enviroments, radiation, fog, improved trooper comms and many other situations no longer involved in present editions. Even Thoughness 4, although improved the odds, didn't make a significant difference saving the marine. What really made a difference was cover modifiers, not armour saves.

 

Termie armour was an improvement of normal power armour with its basic 2+/5+inv save, but even there it was not so ubber. To me the best termie armour version ever was that of 2nd. Ed.: 3+ save in 2D6. Now this is though.

[Lord Humongous]

the 5+ save wasn't added until chapter approve in the mid-3rd edition, to help represent how tough it was, since people would spend so much money and points on the things, which could get taken out with power-weapon wielders or plasma-heavy forces. in the fluff TDA is supposed to be the best of the best man-portable armor, yet the rules didn't quite relate this in game.

 

In 2nd edition, TDA / terminator armor gave you a decent save vs all those weapons. The armor modifier system meant those weapons ignored most armor (since you can;t roll more than a 6 on one die) but termies got to roll 2 dice and add them together for thier armor save.

The 5+ invulnerable save pretty much just duplicates this effect.

[rmoody100]

In first, Termie armour was not so ubber, because it had a 2+ modified save (like in Warhammer Fantasy) with an additional 5+ inv save for a refractor field.

 

Those days marine armour had a 4+ modified save.... marine hit = dead marine.

 

Not true, in those days small arms were a lot more common in almost every army - a 4+ save made a difference. The change from Toughness 3 to Toughness 4 made a way bigger difference.

 

Not true. 4+ save didn't make a real difference. Almost any small arms had a -1AS modifier so, basically marines started with a 5+ save in most cases. Heavy weapons (due to AS modifiers) simply negated any chance whatsoever.

 

But in those days small arms ruled the battle field, at least more than today. 5+ still means that one in 3 marines survive a wound that would have otherwise put them out of action. Against a bunch of lasgun weilding loonies where half the hits wound against T3 that really makes a difference. This is where terminator armour v. 1 was also great - small arms still allowed 2 out of 3 wounds to survive.

 

Personally I killed a lot more troops with massed bolter fire than I ever did with the few heavy weapon toting figures. There were just not that many on the battle field.

[SamaNagol]

Crux Terminatus giving an invulnerable save was simply a device used to tie in the change from 3+ on 2D6 save from 2nd Ed to the 2+/5++ save in 3rd Ed. GW decreed that everything should be based on 1D6 and there would be no modifiers...... and then brought out Melta weapons and Choppas anyway. :D

[Servant of Ultramar]

I tend to think that the "fragment of the Emperor's armor" is the natural Codex slant you always see, like how the Tau codex is always upbeat and the =][= codices don't really address how evil they can be. Consequently, Terminator armor is so tough because it has "the Emperor's armor" inside it. :P

 

Realistically though I don't see what having the Emperor's armor on your shoulder would do for you at all.

[Askari]

I don't think they say it's the piece of the armor that gives the invulnerable save. the piece of the emp's armor is just a badge of honor. The crux terminatus contains a small shield generator that's a reduced form of a sotrm shield and a larger combat shiled. When termies see plasma coming they shrug it off literally. Personally I wouldn't mind the return of the 2D6 termi armor. It sounds amazing and would actually make termie armour mean something. the newest codexes have totally screwed termies over. I can't understand why they got rid of the extra toughness.

[Oldenhaller]

I thought it was only the sergeant or captain's armour which originally had some of the emperor's armour in it. That was from the old spacehulk boxed set tho so might not be canon any more

 

will see if i can find it

 

~O

[Cyrox]

I liked the story that went with the terminator rule change - the one about a space wolf wolf guard being trodden on by a Titan, then digging his way out of the rubble, trudging over to the nearby blood claws and resuming his conversation with the sergeant with the words "As I was saying...".

 

Yeah, I love that bit of Fluff ;)

 

 

I think the Crux, with a tiny fragment of the Emporoers armour within it, is a badge of honour and nothing more. It shows how old some suits are, and according to some fluff, a lot of suits circa M41 are the same suits that fought in the heresy, albeit with parts replaced due to damage etc, thats why some chapters will do ANYTHING to recover fallen marines in TD armour.

[Koremu]

I don't have my books to hand, but in earlier editions, it was only Sergeants and 'special' suits that held a fragment of the emperors own armour, and were treated as Holy Relics for that reason.

 

The concept that the presence of the fragments of the emperors own armour lends the Terminator suits their durability is a fluffy one, meaning it's worth pointing out that while that's what the Marines themselves likely believe (being that technology and superstition are intertwined), that doesn't make it the truth.

 

A chapter has roughly 100 terminator suits, although due to casualties and the like practically no chapter is in possession of the full 100. Not counting all suits produced so far in 10 thousand years to me, an average of 40 to 70 per chapter is a good guess. So if the tiny part of the Emperor's armour theory is true, that tiny fraction has to be really really small.

 

Actually, it was mentioned in earlier sources that the Dark Angels are highly unusual amongst the Space Marine Chapters in having sufficient suits of Terminator Armour to field their entire 1st company as Terminators simultaneously. Most Chapters can deploy half that, at maximum.

 

My Chapter is on record as having 43 suits available, including 2 that are adapted - one for Librarian use (fitted with Psychic Hood and Terminator Force-Weapon) and 1 suit consecrated for use by a Chaplain.

 

 

EDIT: pretty much all of the Chapters will do anything they can to recover Terminator Armour. Hell, most of them make a point of retrieving everything they possibly can from a battlefield - even down to the Bolters. Technological scarcity is a real bummer in the 40k universe. I suspect that most of what a Techmarines duties are on campaign is to keep track of such matters (as well as handle logistics in a general manner).