Can powerfists be turned off?

[Pistorius]

Where is the reference for not using the special close combat weapons? I've been considering this as a strategy to keep my DWTerminators in combat for an extra round of combat.

[Master Toddius]

Uh, no where does it say you can't do this. I rechecked and it doesn't say you can't. Yes you do not gain attack bonuses with pf's but thats all it explains.

[==Me==]

It doesn't say you can't =! you can.

 

"A normal and a special weapon

These models gain one additional attack. All of their attacks, including the bonus attack, benefit from the special weapon's bonuses."

 

All their attacks use the special weapon's abilities, so you can't swing with a storm bolter to stay locked in combat.

[Master Toddius]

Dude--

 

I understand that you gain Zero bonus attacks. I wasn't even talking about bonus attacks in my original post. I was simply explaining that you can turn off you pf and attack normally without a pw attack status in order to gain your i4 or initiative whatever so as to attack before you opponent. And a indy character can have both a pw and a pf. So you can then choose to hit with and i1 pf or a i4/5 pw. Thats all I said. So I have no clue what you're saying other than stating the obvious in the rule book which has nothing to do with my original post...

[==Me==]

I think we're talking about two totally different things here ^_^

 

You cannot turn off your powerfist any more, as all attacks are made with the special weapon's abilities, which is what I was referencing from the rule book. If you've got a power weapon and a fist you can pick one or the other, you just won't get the bonus attacks either way.

[Master Toddius]

I guess then we are, now that I understand what you're asking. :rolleyes:

 

No where in the brb does it say that you cannot chose to turn off the powerfist/thunderhammer. Page 42 included. The explainations are just simply explaining that you can't gain a bonus attack with a powerfist/thunder hammer without having a second identical weapon. Thats it. All they're doing is explaining the bonus or not to bonus rules. It states nothing about choosing to attack with a normal I4/5 attack versus the I1 powerfist/thunder hammer.

 

When they say All attacks are taken with the special weapon it means you don't take the base attacks with a special weapon and then the 1 extra attack by the bolt pistol/chainsword confers only a single normal attack. It just means a pw recieves an extra pw attack with a non power weapon addition when adding up all the attacks a model can confer in hth, i.e. pistol/chainsword. It has nothing to do about turning pf/th's off or on. So yes you can chose to attack at the strength of the model at normal initiative for a model geared with a pf/th. Its always been the case and still is until they say NO specifically.

[march10k]

Yup. Not everything can be quantified.

 

Don't tell that to a mathematician... You're liable to suffer some lumps brought on by Nerd Rage!

 

That more than makes up for the powerfist's 1/12 advantage versus T4.

 

 

In some circumstances, yes.

 

I'd say "most," not "some".

 

 

Nor do I. OTOH, I have been known to wish I did - Monstrous Creatures and Plague Marines show up a lot more than I'd like.

 

MCs, yes, plague marines, not so much. Anyway, I don't throw powerfists at MCs, I throw lascannons and krak missiles at them. Or thunderhammers. But not powerfists. People (as opposed to MCs) might get hurt!

 

/edit/

 

Me and MT, I'm not sure who it is, but I think one of you is trying to prove a negative...

[Davidson]

You might want to check again Master Toddius, the times they are a changin'. You may never "turn off" your powerfists and you no longer get bonus attacks if using a PW and PF either way (pg 42).

 

You might also want to check again.

 

John Doe as a power fist and a bolt pistol.

John Doe does not want to use his power fist this turn.

John Doe uses his bolt pistol to attack in close combat.

John Doe does not get any bonus for using his bolt pistol, and attacks with his normal int and str.

[march10k]

You might also want to check again.

 

John Doe as a power fist and a bolt pistol.

John Doe does not want to use his power fist this turn.

John Doe uses his bolt pistol to attack in close combat.

John Doe does not get any bonus for using his bolt pistol, and attacks with his normal int and str.

 

God, I wish that were true!

 

All attacks benefit from the special weapon's bonuses.

 

Is a boltpistol a special weapon? I've heard about this shutting off of powerfists on four different sites (this one, BoLS, Warseer, and tau online), but in ten years and seven FLGSs in five states, not to mention a GT/GD or three, I've never met anyone in person who believes you can choose to kick your opponent with a ceramite boot instead of crushing the life out of him with a power fist, if you have one. I'd have to see an FAQ from at least 4th edition (expecting one from since the start of 5th would be unreasonable of me) before I believed...and gleefully implemented!

[Chaplain Lucifer]

well, before fists turning off power weapons were a reality and a good one a that. many times a assaulted tau, just clubbing them with the handles so not to massacre them and hold on an extra turn in assault. there is(was) a FAQ of 4th ed. that explained that situation.. probably non existant nowadays .

with fifth edition we'll have to see how things pan out... I haven't give much look at 5th ed book so far. In the meantime, i'll work my mod magid and split this topic in two.. one dealings with vets, another dealing with rules....

[Davidson]

God, I wish that were true!

 

All attacks benefit from the special weapon's bonuses.

 

Is a boltpistol a special weapon? I've heard about this shutting off of powerfists on four different sites (this one, BoLS, Warseer, and tau online), but in ten years and seven FLGSs in five states, not to mention a GT/GD or three, I've never met anyone in person who believes you can choose to kick your opponent with a ceramite boot instead of crushing the life out of him with a power fist, if you have one. I'd have to see an FAQ from at least 4th edition (expecting one from since the start of 5th would be unreasonable of me) before I believed...and gleefully implemented!

 

In the last ed you could choose to not use the power fist, I don't have the rule book handy to quote from it though.

 

You misquote that in the sense that that rule entry is under the entry for gaining a bonus attack for when you have a normal and a special attack.

 

You go down one more paragraph and you'll see:

 

When it is their turn to attack, these models must choose which weapon to use that turn, but they never get the bonus attack for using two weapons (such is the penalty for wielding too many complex weapons!)

 

John Doe has a power fist and a bolt pistol.

John Doe chooses to use the bolt pistol to attack.

John Doe is kosher.

 

Done finished, in clear english that anyone could understand if your opponent brings this up. It's at the bottom of page 42 on the right hand side.

 

Note this only works for models with a special weapon, and another weapon of some sorts. IE a terminator with two lighting claws could not opt to not use lighting claws as he has no other weapons.

[WarpSpawn]

The key phrase is "equipped with". A model "equipped with" those weapons uses them as per the rules for the relevant combination of weapons.

 

Does a model stop being equipped with a powerfist, just because you would rather club the enemy with a pistol butt? The simple answer is no, he does not.

 

The only weapon combination that includes a choice of which weapon to use is 2 special CC weapons. You cannot say there is such a choice with a special and a normal without reading things that are not there (or perhaps not reading things that are).

[garreth]

BRB p.35

 

All engaged models will fight in this turn’s Assault

phase with their full number of Attacks and use any

special close combat attack they have.

 

Nothing to discuss any more =) Models must use special close combat attacks.

[Cedric]

John Doe has a power fist and a bolt pistol.

John Doe chooses to use the bolt pistol to attack.

John Doe is kosher.

 

Done finished, in clear english that anyone could understand if your opponent brings this up. It's at the bottom of page 42 on the right hand side.

 

Note this only works for models with a special weapon, and another weapon of some sorts. IE a terminator with two lighting claws could not opt to not use lighting claws as he has no other weapons.

 

You misquote the bottom part of page 42.

 

If equipped with 2 different special weapons, you must choose one to attack with. E.g, a power wpn and a power fist.

 

Bolt pistols just counts as a regular CCW in assaults, meaning you can't choose to use it instead of the fist. The bolt pistol lacks special rules, and therefore isn't a special CCW.

[Iron_Chaos_Brute]

Rulebook FAQ:

 

‘A normal and a special weapon’

All of their attacks, including the bonus attack, use

the special weapon’s bonuses and penalties.

[nighthawks]

I just want to jump in and agree with the "have a PF must use it" crowd - those posting the quotes pulled from P42 (to argue that the fist may be turned off) need to realize that the quotes must be read in the full context of their paragraph and topic heading.

 

all of the correct rules have been stated. in 5th, if a model is equipped with a single special CCW then it must be used, no choice. more than one and you may choose which, but always with a special weapon, never without when one is available.

[King Tiger]

I will also agree with

"have a PF must use it"

just because the rulebook doesn't say in clear black and white you can't turn off a fist, doesn't mean you can

heck the rulebook doesn't say I can't make my marines immortal giving them a 1+ invulnerable and armour save, it doesn't say I can't increase the power to my fist giving it STR10, it doesn't say....well you get the picture, you just know you can't

[Mordekiem]

BRB p.35

 

All engaged models will fight in this turn’s Assault

phase with their full number of Attacks and use any

special close combat attack they have.

 

Nothing to discuss any more =) Models must use special close combat attacks.

That was the rule I was looking for. Good job on reading the entire rulebook, not just picking and choosing parts of it.

 

:)

[HJL]

yes, it seems that they have gotten rid of the off buttons on power fists in this eddition. oh well.

[StormTAG]

And here I wanted to watch my Terminators go Chun-li on someone.

[Jim AMM realgenius]

I was pointed to this rule discussion and I thought of a different example.

 

What about a Sarge with a Bolter and Power Fist?

 

Since he has a one-handed special weapon and a two-handed normal weapon, certainly the section "Fighting with Two Single-Handed Weapons" does not apply.

 

In fact it even says "if a model is using a two-handed close combat weapon (such as a rifle's butt...), it may not use it together with another weapon".

 

Clearly there must be a difference between "equipped with" and "using in assault". Otherwise the rule above would preclude you from using the PF if you have a Bolter (which is a two-handed close combat weapon)!

[gil galed]

I was pointed to this rule discussion and I thought of a different example.

 

What about a Sarge with a Bolter and Power Fist?

 

Since he has a one-handed special weapon and a two-handed normal weapon, certainly the section "Fighting with Two Single-Handed Weapons" does not apply.

 

In fact it even says "if a model is using a two-handed close combat weapon (such as a rifle's butt...), it may not use it together with another weapon".

 

Clearly there must be a difference between "equipped with" and "using in assault". Otherwise the rule above would preclude you from using the PF if you have a Bolter (which is a two-handed close combat weapon)!

 

no he is still equipped with both in close combat it's just that the bolter grants no bonuses in close combat as it doesn't count as a CCW, so fluff wise perhaps he fires it as he charges it in before holstering it, perhaps it wields it one handed (bit clumsily hence no A bonus).

 

Ultimately i always thought i powerfist was slow because it was a huge metal fist, turning it off doesn't make it any less big and metal.

 

4th ed. yes you could turn them off.

 

5th ed. says you must attack using special weapon profiles, but if you have two weapon profiles then you may choose which to use

 

A rule book says what you can do, not what you can.

 

Rule book doesn't say i can't lots of things, it says what i can do and thus we have to operate within what they say.

 

If you want to turn of PF's then house rule it :(

[Jim AMM realgenius]

the bolter grants no bonuses in close combat as it doesn't count as a CCW

 

The Bolter does count as a two-handed close combat weapon according to the description of Normal Close Combat weapons on pg 42.

 

I completely agree that if you have a bolt pistol and PF, the rules clearly state (against intention) that you always use the PF. I'm not arguing that.

 

If you want to turn of PF's then house rule it

 

Luckily my FLGS did already, way back at the beginning of the tournament season. :devil:

[Fearspect]

Segeants, if you check their profile, have both a bolter and a bolt pistol. Unless you replace it with something else, the bolt pistol is still there to act as their non-special close combat weapon. I do not believe that turning it off is in the spirit of the rules.

 

I imagine that basically what you are asking is "If it is tactically superior, do I tie one of my sergeants arms behind him and have him fight one-handed". To that I would answer: No, he will fight, as all marines do, to his best abilities at all times.

[Legatus]

I am not sure what your point is. Whether the Sergenat has a Boltgun or a Boltpistol in addition to his Powerfist will not make a difference in combat.