BauerPower Posted December 11, 2008 Share Posted December 11, 2008 As a player of Chaos for over a decade (geeze that makes me sound old) specifically Iron Warriors I was sat down the other night mulling over my CSM codex and thought that in the most recent edition that the veiw had mostly been shifted to the renegade chapters. So say i wanted to use world eaters army in a 1,000 pts game for example why should I or other players be forced to use lesser deamon rules when in the spirit of using a khorne stylised army could use the stat lines for deamons from the Chaos Deamon codex. Other things like Cultists for Alpha Legion/Word Bearers or the Basalisk for my beloved Iron Warriors. Anyone else have a veiw?? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/154672-legion-specific-rules/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted December 11, 2008 Share Posted December 11, 2008 Cost balance. Khorne demons are hopefully balanced in codex demons, but might not be balanced if used in codex chaos marines. SAme is true for basilisks. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/154672-legion-specific-rules/#findComment-1804127 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron_Chaos_Brute Posted December 11, 2008 Share Posted December 11, 2008 [sigh]Chaos codex 4.0[/sigh] Unless your gaming group lets you, no mix-n-matching. You'll get used to it...eventually :no: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/154672-legion-specific-rules/#findComment-1804209 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted December 11, 2008 Share Posted December 11, 2008 Why do World Eaters have to put up with generic daemons? Because if you want to play "World Eaters", your army should consist mainly of World Eaters. And daemons aren't World Eaters. The new Codex is not a "Chaos" Codex, like it was in 2nd Edition. It now is a "Chaos Space Marines" Codex, and as such focuses mainly on Marines. You can use a few daemons to spice things up, add some fluff, but not to win your battles for you. For cultists see above. The forces of chaos are 99% NOT Chaos Space Marines, but they are the coolest, so they have a Codex. All the other forces like rebels, cultists and daemons are a separate branch, and not featured in the this Codex. Basilisks are not tanks you approach the enemy front line with. Basilisks are set up a few kilometers behind your lines and pummel the enemy trenches and fortifications. If everything goes well, they are never anywhere near enemy forces. That makes them a very uncharacteristic weapon for any Chaos Space Marine forces, who are still above all heavy shock and raid troops. Basilisks are out of place even in an Imperial Guard force, but perhaps it then represents enemy attacks at the imperial rear positions. They are even more out of place in a Chaos Space Marine army, which should be in the enemies face, and not a few kilometer away from them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/154672-legion-specific-rules/#findComment-1804210 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smurfalypse Posted December 11, 2008 Share Posted December 11, 2008 Why do World Eaters have to put up with generic daemons? Because if you want to play "World Eaters", your army should consist mainly of World Eaters. And daemons aren't World Eaters. The new Codex is not a "Chaos" Codex, like it was in 2nd Edition. It now is a "Chaos Space Marines" Codex, and as such focuses mainly on Marines. You can use a few daemons to spice things up, add some fluff, but not to win your battles for you. For cultists see above. The forces of chaos are 99% NOT Chaos Space Marines, but they are the coolest, so they have a Codex. All the other forces like rebels, cultists and daemons are a separate branch, and not featured in the this Codex. Basilisks are not tanks you approach the enemy front line with. Basilisks are set up a few kilometers behind your lines and pummel the enemy trenches and fortifications. If everything goes well, they are never anywhere near enemy forces. That makes them a very uncharacteristic weapon for any Chaos Space Marine forces, who are still above all heavy shock and raid troops. Basilisks are out of place even in an Imperial Guard force, but perhaps it then represents enemy attacks at the imperial rear positions. They are even more out of place in a Chaos Space Marine army, which should be in the enemies face, and not a few kilometer away from them. I agree with this 100% pretty much. We are chaos space marines, leave it as that. In my opinion basilisks and the like dont belong in 40k at all, these are things better served rules wise for apoc games. Really....A 240 inch range or whatever?? Why even list a range, and this is long before apoc so what was the point. Forgot about the basilisk, its not a "skirmish" vehicle and wouldnt be in most encounters within 40k, unless of course you had a scenerio like Legatus brought up with the rear lines ect ect... Im a hardcore Word Bearers player and even im glad to have the daemons gone a bit. One part i semi disagree with legatus is the addtion of lost and the damned type stuff with the chaos codex. Having traitors within our army lists would add a deminsion to the game, also it would be similar to 2nd edition when chaos was allowed to take 25% of their army list from the guard codex. Just a thought or two. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/154672-legion-specific-rules/#findComment-1804298 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lay Posted December 11, 2008 Share Posted December 11, 2008 Why do World Eaters have to put up with generic daemons?They don't. That's why they've always mingled with Daemons of Khorne. The forces of chaos are 99% NOT Chaos Space Marines, but they are the coolest, so they have a Codex.Says who? I'd rather decide for myself what's "cool" for my army and what isn't. Basilisks are not tanks you approach the enemy front line with. Basilisks are set up a few kilometers behind your lines and pummel the enemy trenches and fortifications. If everything goes well, they are never anywhere near enemy forces. That makes them a very uncharacteristic weapon for any Chaos Space Marine forces, who are still above all heavy shock and raid troops. Basilisks are out of place even in an Imperial Guard force, but perhaps it then represents enemy attacks at the imperial rear positions. They are even more out of place in a Chaos Space Marine army, which should be in the enemies face, and not a few kilometer away from them.The point that Basilisks don't belong to IWs just because they shouldn't be in the game in the first place is moot as long as they are available at all. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/154672-legion-specific-rules/#findComment-1804334 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted December 11, 2008 Share Posted December 11, 2008 They don't. That's why they've always mingled with Daemons of Khorne. You are conflicting "generic /lesser daemons" with "chaos undivided daemons". But that's not what they are. In your purely khorne force, they are daemons of khorne, and you could even use the bloodletter models for them. They are just not differentiated from other deities daemons in a chaos space marine army. They are only weak images of the dark gods, not with their full potential, probably because of the distance to the warp space or whatever. Says who? Sales, I guess. The point that Basilisks don't belong to IWs just because they shouldn't be in the game in the first place is moot as long as they are available at all. The point is that no one can reasonably demand to have his basilisks or claim that they should be available to his force for it to be properly represented. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/154672-legion-specific-rules/#findComment-1804572 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tchort Posted December 12, 2008 Share Posted December 12, 2008 Cost balance. Khorne demons are hopefully balanced in codex demons, but might not be balanced if used in codex chaos marines. SAme is true for basilisks. Well, that's the whole reason for paying game designers. To get them to balance something. Though that may be beyond GW's designers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/154672-legion-specific-rules/#findComment-1804717 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Askari Posted December 12, 2008 Share Posted December 12, 2008 If you want to play with daemons they have an army of daemons. If you want to play marines but have some daemons support then either play apoc or use the generic lesser daemons and use whatever daemon models you want. Daemons aren't supposed to be the main focus of the codex, that's why they don't take up foc slots because you're supposed to build your army around marines. If you want to play daemons play Codex daemons and leave your marines at home. And the bloodletters are balanced but only for the daemon codex. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/154672-legion-specific-rules/#findComment-1804747 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lay Posted December 12, 2008 Share Posted December 12, 2008 If you want to play daemons play Codex daemons and leave your marines at home.The OP wants to add specific daemons to an appropriate army. He's better off house ruling them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/154672-legion-specific-rules/#findComment-1805160 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BauerPower Posted December 12, 2008 Author Share Posted December 12, 2008 The main reason for the post was to focus on the way a themed force can play in smaller games i know that everyone says "Thats what Apocolypse is for", do you see where i'm comming from there? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/154672-legion-specific-rules/#findComment-1805292 Share on other sites More sharing options...
nurglez Posted December 16, 2008 Share Posted December 16, 2008 i still feel the main reason that specific daemons were taken out of the chaos marine codex was to "sell" more codex daemon armies. I loved using nurgling in my death guard army, thought it suited them perfectly, especially as these guys didnt get summoned in. I can agree with the renegade list's not getting as many daemons, due to not having the long standing pacts or w/e, but i do feel that the older legions, word bearers especially, would/should be able to summon specific daemons. you can imagine, army of word bearers, sorting out the rituals and what not to summon a generic daemon squad? To the OP, talk ammongst your gaming group, and see if you can use your older chaos codex, as this will sort out the problems you are having. or run multiple armies allied. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/154672-legion-specific-rules/#findComment-1809345 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Askari Posted December 16, 2008 Share Posted December 16, 2008 If you're going to use them house rule it and use the rules from the last codex o just add marks and the options for wings to the generic daemons. using the daemons from the daemon codex would be overpowered. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/154672-legion-specific-rules/#findComment-1809443 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rahveel Posted December 16, 2008 Share Posted December 16, 2008 If you're going to use them house rule it and use the rules from the last codex o just add marks and the options for wings to the generic daemons. using the daemons from the daemon codex would be overpowered. I was about to reccomend something similar. I have encountered very few groups that (for friendly games) would not alow lesser daemons to take a mark for the cost listed in the CSM entry for an icon. (note that they get a mark, not an Icon). seems silly that GW did not let Lesser Daemons take a mark. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/154672-legion-specific-rules/#findComment-1810077 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romulas Posted December 16, 2008 Share Posted December 16, 2008 The main reason for the post was to focus on the way a themed force can play in smaller games i know that everyone says "Thats what Apocolypse is for", do you see where i'm comming from there? its still good, sure your list will have 'generic deamon' but at least you can represent them with bloodletters or hounds and have a visually acceptible Khorne force. OR if your group will allow it have a combined list: minimum 1 HQ 2 Troop Khornite CSMs and minimum 1 HQ, 2 Troops Khornite Daemons. that would give you the best setups however the game would be unbalaced as you will have some strike troops that don't force you to take a loss of an aspiring champion (greater daemon summoning) and the daemons could still deep strike in as usual. this would have to take some planning as the 2 formidable HQ units in small point games would be very overpowering (see unbalanced as mentioned above). as for myself i do miss the 'Legion Rules' however the new book allows for a greater flexibility (IMO) of an effective chaos force. (the wost i've done in 5th with chaos is a minor victory) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/154672-legion-specific-rules/#findComment-1810171 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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