no chaplain?

[kharn_the_betrayer]

I am just wondering on why the Grey Knights don't have a chaplain in their book? I would see them as important for the GK's or do all the battle brothers act in that role? Does anyone have some insight into this?

[Captain Malachi]

Chaplains are for when your faith is tested, a grey knights faith is never tested.

[Doomaflatchi]

If faith was never tested, it wouldn't be "faith" now, would it? ;) Grey Knights have their faith tested all the time; just because they've never failed that test doesn't mean it hasn't occurred.

 

It has been established through cannon Black Library fiction (namely the Grey Knights trilogy by Ben Counter) that Grey Knight Chaplains DO, in fact, exist. They are represented with the classic skull helmet and by painting one arm of their armor black (I suspect because, unlike the other Space Marine chapters, Grey Knight chaplains are Grey Knights first and chaplains second).

 

But you're correct, they have no special stats in the codex. Personally, I suspect this is because the stats of a Chaplain wouldn't differ from those of a normal Grey Knight. Crozius? NFW works just as well. Psyker? Everyone is. So while they don't have their own unique stat block, they do still exist - for example, I have a Terminator in my army converted to a Chaplain. I started with the Brother-Captain model, used green stuff to mold a hood for him, and painted the hood, tabard, and right arm of his armor black. Then I carefully cut off the blade of his NFW and attached the head of a crozius from a SM Chaplain.

 

Hope this helped answer some of your questions. They do exist, they're just rare, because it requires finding a Grey Knight whose faith stands out amongst his fellows - and that's a hard act to follow. :lol:

[Captain Malachi]

It's not much of a test when you're almost guaranteed to pass though is it? :lol:

[Doomaflatchi]

It's not much of a test when you're almost guaranteed to pass though is it? :lol:

Quite the contrary, I imagine - just because it hasn't happened yet doesn't mean it can't. And besides, I suspect that as time goes on, the tests get harder. After all, each new Grey Knight has a longer history of non-corruption to live up to, and thus has more to lose from his pride. More to lose equals more fear, which equals more ways for Chaos to get its slimy fingers in them.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Chaplains in the Grey Knights would probably be a very different role to that of SM Chaplains. For example, there will be lots of ties to the recruitment process, judging and giving GKs their incorruptability, and a lot of reconsecration or weapons/armour after engagements.

 

In brief, a GK Chaplain would only be a spiritual mentor in the training of a GK, and other than that would be more in the role of a training sergeant than much else. Once you've taught them to be incorruptible, then thats it - its done, the GK in question can take it from there. Either that or you haven't done your job properly. Chaplains in SM Chapters are there precisely because SMs are corruptible, of all the traitor legions only the Word Bearers didn't kill their Chaplains.

 

Also, don't take Ben Counter as canon. He takes far too much liberty with the existing GK fluff, and I believe the statement about BL not being canon has a lot to do with his work.

[number6]

Heh. It's amazing how regularly this topic shows up! (Using the search function brings up a number of older topics. "Chaplain Question" is a recent one well worth your time.) I am always suprised at how important it can be for some players that the GKs maintain as much of the structure and organization of the lesser Astartes as is possible ... when the entire reason I love GKs (fluffwise, at least; of course there are the models!) is because they are almost nothing like the lesser Astartes. They don't have or require such a rigid hierarchy. They are significantly more self-sufficient and capable.

 

So my question is not, "Why aren't there Chaplains?" It's, "Why would we ever want Chaplains?" The more things that make us similar to the Astartes, the less I like it. Personally, I am not a fan of the Ben Counter fluff. I strongly prefer the GW fluff as represented in the various rule books and codexes, particular the DH codex, of course.

 

That said, I have come around to agreeing with something a GW employee once said with respect to fluff (can't remember who, Jervis Johnson?). Warhammer fluff is contradictory, and rightly so. It is reported to us by fallible 3rd parties, so how much can we trust the veracity of any of it? Furthermore, truly resttrictive fluff would necessarily put limits on the imagination and creativity of we players who want to participate in this universe. Within very broad parameters, I think we should be generous and allow for things we may find distasteful (and for me, GK Chaplains qualify) to actually exist. The more passion people put into putting their own personal stamp onto their armies and the 40K universe, the more fun it is for everyone else.

 

So if you want to justify GK Chaplains, more power to you. Let's see those model conversions, let's see your fluff, and if you even make special rules for them, I want to face you on the gaming table so you can test them out.

 

Speaking of which, don't forget to check out - 7eAL -'s Inquisition Project. They're working on GK chaplains right now....

[Tauren]

Chaplains were created to root out heresy and provide spiritual support. In the Grey Knights organization the Grey Knights are trained, no tortured to the point that any potential heretics are killed during the initiation. The group as a whole, much like a religious group retains their spiritual support on a team by team basis. If anything their leaders, justicars and higher leadership serve as individual chaplains, so much to the point that they also serve as the psyionic center of the gestalt psychic powers that each grey knight and the teams as a whole create.

 

That said for modeling reasons... *shifty eyes* and for more HQ reasons *shifty eyes* and for coolness reasons... *Shifty eyes* chaplains would be cool, but personally I agree with Number6 in that you need a different angle with them. Not sure what but not chaplains... We need a power armor level HQ for one that fills a similar role to chaplains but are not chaplains.

 

As far as the word bearers... their chaplains became the paradigms and leaders of their organization known as the dark apostles... You don't kill your leaders. On top of that their chapter was one of thee most dedicated chapters to the worship of the Emperor... Guess that's what you get when you give a bunch of crazy super humans that think you are a god the cold shoulder and tell them to stop it.

 

As far as Grey Knights living up to tradition, they don't have a tradition, they know that those before them died for the same thing they will fight till they die to fight for. They are brain-washed, uber religious, uber dedicated super soldiers in unpainted armor. They are purity to the point of white-out.

[Captain Malachi]

The reason it isn't much of a test Doomflatchi, is because their faith is so strong they can use it as a weapon(!), no chance of a crisis of faith there.

[iamnothere]

Hmm Chaplains...

 

Chaplains are a product of the Word Bearers and were encouraged into other Legions during the Great Crusade to ensure "loyalty" to teh Emperor.

 

This didn't really work in quite a few Legions if you look at what happened a few years later in the Hearesy. Would GK have Chaplains?

 

I think they would but I think there would be so many to render the position almost pointless. Every Justicar is a Chaplain to his troops, every Brother Captain a Chaplain to his Justicars.

 

The very faith in their hearts drives Daemons away.

 

Would it be a cool thing to model? Definatley, I may just do one as a GKT with TH/SS.

[Gentlemanloser]

So my question is not, "Why aren't there Chaplains?" It's, "Why would we ever want Chaplains?"

 

Litanies of Hate. :D

 

Personally, I am not a fan of the Ben Counter fluff. I strongly prefer the GW fluff as represented in the various rule books and codexes, particular the DH codex, of course.

 

Agreed.

 

As for the role Chapains could provide, they could be more of a Grey Knight in house Inquisitor, to make sure that the GK remain pure, and that the taint of Chaos, after facing it so closely, doesn't take root.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Gentlemanloser Posted Today, 01:32 PM

As for the role Chapains could provide, they could be more of a Grey Knight in house Inquisitor, to make sure that the GK remain pure, and that the taint of Chaos, after facing it so closely, doesn't take root.

 

Great - you managed to say what I wanted to in less than half the space. :D

[iamnothere]

In their current incarnation they wouldn't really add anything to GK so they'd need to be made "more special".

 

How about some of these:

 

Psychic null: Works as a null rod for themselves and any unit they join.

Psychic boost: GK psychers may reroll perils of the warp tests when part of a unit led by a GK Chaplain - very useful when you consider how holocaust effects GKT.

Psychic detection: A unit with a GKchaplain may always target psychers regardless of nightfighting, veil of tears etc and may pick them out as a casualty even when attached to another squad.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

iamnothere Posted Today, 02:32 PM

In their current incarnation they wouldn't really add anything to GK so they'd need to be made "more special".

 

How about some of these:

 

Psychic null: Works as a null rod for themselves and any unit they join.

Psychic boost: GK psychers may reroll perils of the warp tests when part of a unit led by a GK Chaplain - very useful when you consider how holocaust effects GKT.

Psychic detection: A unit with a GKchaplain may always target psychers regardless of nightfighting, veil of tears etc and may pick them out as a casualty even when attached to another squad.

 

You might want to take those to the Inquisition Project (link in my sig). Put them in the Grey Knight 2-Wound Hero thread.

[iamnothere]

I havn't had a look at that in a while so why not.

[jester_prince]

I agree that in the GK's that the job of a chaplain is carried out by each and every GK, each brother offers guidance and watch of the rest and if greater spiritual guidance is needed they turn to their superiors and they in turn to theirs, and the Grand Masters you would hope after their centuries of wisdom, should have strong enough faith to atleast be unfaultering in the decisions they make, whether they are for better or worse.

 

Chaplains are for when your faith is tested, a grey knights faith is never tested.

 

I personaly dont see GK as unwavering in their faith, they may be super humans mind wiped and tourtoured to be NEAR inpentirable, but its still a mind based on a HUMAN mind, faith is about questioning and choosing the right answer, and knowing to seek guidance and forgivness when the wrong answer has been given. Its just that a GK is strong enough in his belife that he knows when he has made a wrong decision, and can turn to his brothers to keep him strong. No story is any fun when the heros are indestructable or inpentrable. Sure no GK has fallen thus far it is not wise to belive they are beyond falling.

 

Personaly a GK chaplain isnt an idea i like, a few months ago i probably would, i complained GK didnt have rhinos, untill someone knocked some sense into me and explained that GK arnt SM dispite the power armour, now im glad they dont.

 

If you start with why no chaplains then include why no apothicarys or librarians or tech marines... kinda starts to look like a marine list.

[Gentlemanloser]

Realisitcally, they'd have all those. Or rather some varient.

 

If no GK ever get sent to Mars to train in the arts of the Machine Spirit, then they need Tech Priest enginseers.

 

Otherwise thier esoteric weapons fall to bits. Or all Grey Knights offer fealty to the Machine pirit as well, and are all Enginseers as well as Psychers.

 

Eitherway, *someone* needs blessing of the omnissia.

 

No librarians, as they're all Psychic. In essence they're all Librairans anyway.

 

Apothicaries, see above for techy stuff. *Someone* needs to make new Grey Knights, and recover the mysterious Gene Seed from the battlefiled. If it isn't Marine Apothecaries, then it needs to be human counterparts.

 

If the DH list already includes some human troops, to round itself, and the Grey Knights out, it needs these roles filled. If even by allowing the purchase of Guard equivalents.

 

As different in organisation, and opponent as Grey Knights are, fundamentally, at the end of they day they are Space Marines. And would opperate with the same basis.

[Tauren]

Honestly unless the grey knight material was retconned... if anyone suggested that a "Chaplain" be entered into the grey knights organization to "police" them and keep them pure as an "in-house inquisitor" I would see those chaplains end up dead. Sorry but Grey Knights do not need to be policed... period. They are purity incarnate. Religious leader in the burial, recovery and sanctity of the grey knights, fine. In house inquisitor or chaplain that questions a knights purity? Hell no. The very idea that the knights are questioned as the only chapter to never lose a member to chaos worship or heretical ideals is a testament to the chapter and what it does and stands for.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

If the DH list already includes some human troops, to round itself, and the Grey Knights out, it needs these roles filled. If even by allowing the purchase of Guard equivalents.

 

Not necessarily. The roles may need to be added to the background, yes, but they do not have to be in the list.

 

They are purity incarnate.

Why? You don't just come across inherently incorruptible people. The reason no Grey Knight has fallen to Chaos is because of the safeguards in the organisation and their training. GK Chaplains would never be SM Chaplains, that we can agree on. But to resist the taint of Chaos, after fighting them you need to reconsecrate everything, do rituals of cleansing on the GKs themselves and (in their training) teach them the abilities that allow them to block out the temptations of Chaos.

 

The defences of a GK against Chaos are not a single barrier. There is the purity of their battlegear, their discipline, their psychic training and their starting faith. The starting faith is controlled by the GK alone. The discipline and psychic abilites are a combination of their natural ability and heavy training. The purity of their battlegear has very little to do with the GK, since the same touch of Chaos that lingers on their armour lingers on the GK too, despite the fact it will never manage to corrupt them. Both need to be cleansed by one who has not been at that particular combat but has the faith of a GK - enter the GK Chaplain.

 

To be honest I think its misleading to refer to a GK Chaplain. The role is so far removed from an SM Chaplain it just causes confusion.

[iamnothere]

I don't think that GK arte never tested, more so they are tested every day. Tested by their brothers, tested by their Justicars and tested by their BCs.

 

So what do Chaplains do for GK again? Make us fearless? Make us better when we charge into combat? We already hit on 3+ and are fearlesss, so that leaves rerolling misses in the 1st round of close combat IF we charge.

 

With the ammount of fire power we put out it's a stupid opponent that allows this. Chaplains in GK need another use other wise it's just turning bullets into brass.

 

I role I can see is the apothecary and I think the justicar should fulfil this in every squad. Techmarines? So a GK should dilute his faith in the Emperor and believe in the Omnissiah? I think with Titans closeness to Mars they arn't going to lack for Mechanicus support so wouldn't need tech priests.

[Dragons]

I am actually working on a conversion for my 'command squad' of a "Chaplain".. He's just a normal Termi.. with a COOL conversion/paintjob (hopefully).

 

But as to Chaplains and Faith in Grey Knights.

 

I think this is one area that Ben Coulter got it RIGHT...

 

The reason you don't see Chaplain's out fighting is that the Grey Knights as a whole don't go out beyond squad level except in the most insanely dire and peril filled situations.. SECTORS falling to Chaos.. In his novels they sent a couple of squads to deal with the corruption in a large group of worlds, and half a squad to deal with just one world. MOST deployments of Grey Knights would then (by necessity of scarcity) be sans Chaplain.

 

Another aspect he brought up in the his novels is that the older more experienced Grey Knights were NOT the ones leading in devotions/prayers. The guides of purity and sanctity and reminders of faith were the YOUNGEST members. Freshest trained from Titan to lead them Spiritually. Without the Chaplains near (as GK's are spread across the galaxy by squads) this makes PERFECT sense to me.

 

Just tossin' in my .02 Imperial credits.

 

-Dragons

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Dragons Posted Today, 10:37 PM

Just tossin' in my .02 Imperial credits.

 

Copper Imperial actually. They got a quick off-the-cuff mention in the DH codex. :D

 

Dragons Posted Today, 10:37 PM

I am actually working on a conversion for my 'command squad' of a "Chaplain".. He's just a normal Termi.. with a COOL conversion/paintjob (hopefully).

 

Good point. I may have to do the same for my Terminator Retinue. I've already got the box set BC as a converted standard bearer. Thanks for the idea!

[kharn_the_betrayer]

So my question is not, "Why aren't there Chaplains?" It's, "Why would we ever want Chaplains?"

 

Litanies of Hate.

 

Personally, I am not a fan of the Ben Counter fluff. I strongly prefer the GW fluff as represented in the various rule books and codexes, particular the DH codex, of course.

 

Agreed.

 

 

 

 

 

As for the role Chapains could provide, they could be more of a Grey Knight in house Inquisitor, to make sure that the GK remain pure, and that the taint of Chaos, after facing it so closely, doesn't take root.

 

 

This is why we don't get one. Abuse. LoH+NFW=fun. Also new idea for my sm army. That is a lot of insight though I could see it running both ways with the fluff. I just thought it would be cool and almost like a BT chappie just because a more zealous, more pious brother. I will look at the =][= thread though it sounds like a good project.

 

KtB

[Red Lost Soldier]

One of the reasons I got into GK was because of the lack of Chaplains. To me, a GK Chaplain has never made sense. Religious fanaticism is a slippery slope in Chaotic territory. The lack of GK Chaplains and the evidential incorruptibility of GKs is not a coincidence. Given the hostility and tension between Chaplains and psykers, throwing them into a chapter of psykers just seems insane. The question for me is "Why do we need Chaplains?" My own answer is a resounding, we don't.

 

Then again I do favour Librarians to Chaplains in standard marine armies, plus I'm radical, so maybe I'm just that way inclined.

[Gentlemanloser]

Not necessarily. The roles may need to be added to the background, yes, but they do not have to be in the list.

 

Then no list needs them.

 

Either they provide a battlefield role, like fixing your GK LR/Dread on the field, or it can all be done in the background.

 

Seeing as most other imperial armies have them, it seems like there is a viable on field role.

 

Edit:

 

When a contingent of GK returns from stomping Chaos back into the warp, does anyone check them over for signs of Taint, or are they just automatically assumed to have reisted everythign, cuz well they're the Grey Knights?

 

I'm pretty sure everyone else get's screened, and isn't it by the Inquisition?

 

If the GK are also screened when they return, and isn't it just sensible to do so, would the Inquisition do it, or rather a memebr of the Grey Knights themselves? Maybe a Memebr of the GK that's also part of the Inquisiton, like one of the GM are.