Gate of Infinity

[angronn]

Having thought about it, I think maniclurker's solution is the most RAW. It doesn't involve any real bending, but it does feel like you were following one rule-path and then suddenly jerked 270 degrees onto a different track. Essentially, that IS what has happened, as the Deep Strike mishap table wasn't written with Gate of Infinity (i.e. non-reserve, probably non-deep strikers) in mind.

 

Although the RAW thread is strongest in that solution, WarpSpawn's solution feels a lot more in keeping with RAI and fluff, and that's what I would use (for myself or my opponent) in a game.

[maniclurker]

he unit is granted the Deep Strike ability when using this power... therefore I have no idea where you came up with saying that they have to walk back on.

And I have no idea where you are getting this idea that the power grants them the Deep Strike USR... IT DOESN'T. Look at the entry... it says they are removed, and immediately placed via deep strike rules. Period.

 

Warpspawn: Well, if you want to get all 'technical' about the fact that it is not deployment, then technically, you can't bring them back on at all... they only get to choose how to come in from reserves during deployment. You just hardcore RAW lost that one.

 

Simply put, warpspawn, you really don't have a good basis as to why a unit that does not have the deep strike ability can suddenly deep strike from reserves.

 

@Everyone saying blah blah about RAI:

...as one may arrive miles away from the intended objective

That's straight from the rulebook. So, there is plenty of RAI and RAW to explain why you walk back on if you don't have the deepstrike rule.

[SeattleDV8]

And I have no idea where you are getting this idea that the power grants them the Deep Strike USR... IT DOESN'T. Look at the entry... it says they are removed, and immediately placed via deep strike rules. Period.

You answered the question yourself. Yes the unit doesn't have the USR, but it uses the deep strike rules granted by psychic power.

the codex special rule over-rules the BRB general one.

Its really not that grey of an area in the rules. I feel you are over thinking this one.

Keep it simple,like Warps idea.

[Trekari]

I'm with Warpspawn, with the exception that the 24" rule still applies. They have not, after all, completed the GoI procedure until they are successfully placed back on the table. If this takes an extra turn or two for them to become available again due to the Deep Strike Rules mishap table, then so be it.

[nighthawks]

other than GoI and Necrons Veil of Time, is there a rule that works anything like this is the rest of the game? looking for precedent...

 

as it is, I'm starting to agree with maniclurker on the deepsrike front. seems perfectly logical and fluffy that the power accidentally sent them many feet away - and luckily they were close enough to walk back on. might be interesting to house rule that they then come on via outflank or something, too. but I can also see the re-deep striking argument, but can't decide if the 24" radius makes sense after being, in effect, temporarily lost to the warp.

 

Overall, though, I think this needs to be sent to GW as desperately in need of an Errata, as well as those rules that work the same basic way, like I asked about above.

[Br.Pat]

And I have no idea where you are getting this idea that the power grants them the Deep Strike USR... IT DOESN'T. Look at the entry... it says they are removed, and immediately placed via deep strike rules. Period.

You answered the question yourself.

 

My words exactly.

 

However I still think that the 24" range no longer applies if you put them back on the table.

[angronn]

It doesn't grant them the Deep Strike USR per se, as they can't Deep Strike at the start of the battle.

[maniclurker]

*sighs*

 

Well, I'm glad that everyone here is actually trying to use the rulebook to provide any basis for their arguments.

 

Oh, wait...

[Vonjankmon]

Ok a bit off the current topic but still about Gate of Infinity.

 

From what I can read of the rules Gate of Infinity would be able to take advantage of a Locator Beacon as it uses the Deep Strike rules and the Locator Beacon specifies deep striking units.

 

Having said that though I would feel better about using that combo if I had a few second opinions.

[Steelmage99]

By RAW, yes indeed.

 

The Locator Beacon helps Deep Striking units. Remember that the Teleport Homer (Mmmm, Duff beer) doesn't.

[Trekari]

GoI itself, last sentence:

 

If the deep strike attempt scatters and a double is rolled, one member of the unit, chosen by the controlling player, is claimed by the Warp and removed as a casualty (the survivors scatter normally).

 

1) Until the unit is successfully placed back within 24" of the initial casting, they have not completed a Gate of Infinity sequence. As far as I know in this game, you never just do part of what the rules tell you to do.

 

2) Note the use of the word 'attempt' in the quote. This notes that it may not be a successful deep strike. The only time a Deep Strike is not successful, is when you have some sort of mishap. This brings the mishap table into play.

 

3) Note the "survivors scatter normally" clause. Normal Deep Strike scatter includes the possibility of having a mishap as well.

 

4) "Using Deep Strike rules" is pretty darn clear itself.

 

If any of the models in a deep striking unit

cannot be deployed because they would land off the

table, in impassable terrain, on top of a friendly model,

or on top or within 1" of an enemy model, something

has gone wrong. The controlling player must roll on the

deep strike Mishap table and apply the results.

 

5) Note that "the controlling player MUST roll on the deep strike Mishap table and apply the results." This is not optional.

[maniclurker]

Where are you getting this "have not completed the sequence" stuff from. This is not MTG... there are not interrupts. It doesn't say that the unit gets to deep strike back in if they flubb up and get put back into reserves. The magic is done after you place them and scatter. What happens afterwards is all game mechanics based on the rules for reserves... and have nothing to do with GOI.

[Kapitan Montag]

Well, Maniclurker you've one me round, If this happens to my libby, he and his squad will be walking back on.

 

(Of course the whole squad will be muttering under their breath about what a doofus the libby is, and he'll be apologising for forgetting he'd left his spare locator beacon switched on back at the camp, and had homed in on that. - it's an easy mistake to make :lol: )

[SeattleDV8]

Where are you getting this "have not completed the sequence" stuff from. This is not MTG... there are not interrupts. It doesn't say that the unit gets to deep strike back in if they flubb up and get put back into reserves. The magic is done after you place them and scatter. What happens afterwards is all game mechanics based on the rules for reserves... and have nothing to do with GOI.

 

Thats not how it worded Manic. BRB pg.95 "if any of the models in a deep striking unit cannot be deployed because..."

So the librarian uses the power,

The unit is REMOVED from the table,

the unit uses the deep strike rules to return within 24"

If you have a mishap you are A) destroyed ;) misplaced or C) delayed

If you were delayed you never made it back from where ever you were when removed from the table.

In effect , if not fact "in reserve"

The game mechanic , psychic power in this case has already put you off the board and allows you to return using the deep strike rules.

you are required at this point to use ALL of the deep strike rules.

side note..there is no Deep strike USR.

[nighthawks]

he has a point. that follows RAW and is very clean and easy to understand. a delay in the warp. time certainly doesn't opperate the same there. why not?

[Souchan]

The main problem with your attitude here is that you are preaching to us as if RAW actually says to play it your way. It does not. In fact, it does not really say to play it any way in particular. We have a gap in the rules that we need to paper over as best we can. you are of course entitled to your opinion, as are we all, but do not mistake that opinion for anything else.

 

I'd also like to ask if you can think of any other unit in the game where they get a single shot at deepstriking, then have to walk on the next time around. I cannot think of any.

 

Personally, I would guess Necrons Veiling and Orks 'ere we going. Skyleapers are probably exempt as I think they have the DS as a rule, but an Eldar player would need to confirm or deny that.

 

Quite simply, if you started any of these in reserves and they came on, you wouldn't be allowed to deep strike them then either would you(barring Termie libby with termies etc.)

[Trekari]

I don't see how my interpretation was unclear in the slightest.

 

GoI allows you to Deep Strike (which IS a Special Rule, just not a USR), back within 24". If you fail due to a Mishap, that does not remove the 24" restriction for subsequent attempts.

 

Anyone who says otherwise, I'd like to have that particular section of the rule and ability pointed out.

[Souchan]

I don't see how my interpretation was unclear in the slightest.

 

GoI allows you to Deep Strike (which IS a Special Rule, just not a USR), back within 24". If you fail due to a Mishap, that does not remove the 24" restriction for subsequent attempts.

 

Anyone who says otherwise, I'd like to have that particular section of the rule and ability pointed out.

 

I disagree on it being a special rule. GoI is a power, which has an effect. Removing and then replacing the models by using the DS rules. Once you have done this the power is finished. The delayed result is part of the replacing with DS rules, and once they are replaced the power's effect is completed(despite the models being in a state that will automatically have further results). Also, you can't use GoI to let them deep strike in if they started the game in reserves if they didn't have the rule through some toher means.

 

Come next turn, when the reserves roll is made the power has long since been resolved, now when coming back on in my opinion(quite simply, the rules should have been made to fully cover this eventuality, but didn't) they should walk on from your deployment as would any reserves that has not been specified as deep striking or outflanking(barring them having the rules allowing either, despite reserves rules mentioning you must do this in deployment, I see no issue allowing them when replaced to be declared again in this instance).

[Trekari]

1) I meant Deep Strike is a Special Rule. See SeattleDV8s post above.

 

2) No, GoI hasn't been resolved until you are placed successfully back on the table within 24" That is part of the restriction of GoI allowing you to Deep Strike at all, and nowhere does it state this restriction is lifted if you suffer a mishap.

[Souchan]

1) I see, never mind that then^^

 

2) I still disagree on this account, I consider placing them via deep strike to be done with once the mishap table has been used, no matter which result was rolled. They have in fact been placed via the DS rules and just removed again. Though I fully understand your position on it, I can imagine believing the placing never happened as they have been put in reserves as the final result. It's just not how I look at it :)

[rat of vengence]

Where are you getting this "have not completed the sequence" stuff from. This is not MTG... there are not interrupts. It doesn't say that the unit gets to deep strike back in if they flubb up and get put back into reserves. The magic is done after you place them and scatter. What happens afterwards is all game mechanics based on the rules for reserves... and have nothing to do with GOI.

 

Thats not how it worded Manic. BRB pg.95 "if any of the models in a deep striking unit cannot be deployed because..."

So the librarian uses the power,

The unit is REMOVED from the table,

the unit uses the deep strike rules to return within 24"

If you have a mishap you are A) destroyed :) misplaced or C) delayed

If you were delayed you never made it back from where ever you were when removed from the table.

In effect , if not fact "in reserve"

The game mechanic , psychic power in this case has already put you off the board and allows you to return using the deep strike rules.

you are required at this point to use ALL of the deep strike rules.

side note..there is no Deep strike USR.

I agree with MOST of this. The rules are clear up to a point, as several people have quoted.

 

I agree with Trekari where the power is not 'finished' until the squad is placed (or dead on a 1 or 2). Okay, there is a mishap. But it doesn't suggest in the rules anywhere that they now walk on from their deployment zone, nor that the 24" restriction has been removed.

 

I think the simplist solution in our scenario is to place them using the rules as stated (deepstrike within 24") once they have finished being 'delayed'.

 

RoV

[Oldenhaller]

Ok a bit off the current topic but still about Gate of Infinity.

 

From what I can read of the rules Gate of Infinity would be able to take advantage of a Locator Beacon as it uses the Deep Strike rules and the Locator Beacon specifies deep striking units.

 

Having said that though I would feel better about using that combo if I had a few second opinions.

 

Righto. Things are scattered all over the books so we'll see where we go with this one.

 

To start with, GoI states that:

 

The Librarian and any unit he is with are removed from the tabletop and imediately placed back together anywhere using the deep strike rules

 

Then the Locator Beacon states:

 

If a unit wishes to arrive on the battlefield via deepstrike and chooses to do so within 6" of a model carrying a locator beacon, then it won't scatter.

 

And finally the Deep strike rules state:

 

Roll for the arrival of these units as specified in the rules for reserves and then deploy them as follows. First place one model from the unit anywhere on the table..."

 

So, You remove the libby and his unit from the table and they then arrive via deepstrike and are placed within 6" of the locator beacon. For once the garbled rules whicch have lots of fluff in them are pretty clear - they're just over 4 different pages of 2 rulebooks :P

 

Will apply myself to the other rule in a moment

 

~O

[Oldenhaller]

I think I may have found out how this unit gets to use the deep strike rules from reserves on subsequent turns...

 

some unit's specila rules allow them to enter play via...some...extraordinary means

 

This is true for the teleporting libby - he is removed from play and then placed back onthe table using the deep strike rules. These state that the Librarian is "arriving"

 

If you with to use this 'deep strike' option, then the units in question must begin the game in reserve

 

This rule is over-ridden by the Librarian entry in C:SM.

 

Roll for the arrival of these units as specified in the rules for reserves annd then deploy them as follows.

 

Stating that any unit which is arriving via deepstrike which is in reserves will be deployed on the table using the deeepstrike rules.

 

Delayed...the unit is placed back in reserve

 

Meaning that; with reference to the other deep strike rules - the unit is now back in the buffer which was stated at the start of the deepstike rules. which thren goes back to:

 

Roll for the arrival of these units as specified in the rules for reserves annd then deploy them as follows.

 

This being the case as the librarian is now following the full deep strike rules i'd say he can GoI to anywhere on the table as he's now following all of the DS rules and does't have to follow the restrictions in C:SM as he's no longer bound by GoI. The rules for DS state that "some unit's special rules allow them to enter play". The librarian's power does this and it follows that the rules for it mean that is deep striking until it enters play again.

 

So

 

- Librarian uses GoI and is removed from the table with his unit after passing the psychic test at the start of his movement phase.

- The Librarian (or for that matter any other member of the unit is placed on the table within 24" of the librarian's original position.

- The Scatter roll puts them off the table/in impassible terrain/on troops etc

- The Mishap table comes up and 5-6 is rolled placing the Librarian and the unit in reserve - but still in the DS rules which follow that they must now roll for reserves and follow the regular DS rules.

- The reserve roll is passed on a subsequent turn and the Librarian or any member of the unit is placed anywhere on the board, as per the full DS rules.

- Proceed as normal with the deep strike.

 

IMHO of course

 

~O

[rat of vengence]

I still don't see where the 24" suddenly wears off. He isn't just arriving back on the board via deep strike, he is arriving back on the board using GoI which uses the deepstrike rules with modification (24" range). Just because his arrival was delayed doesn't magically change the limitations, or make them go away.

 

RoV

[DevianID]

Is this situation the same as a lictor that deep strike mishaps? Because the lictor's deep strike ability has the restriction that it must be in terrain for example, if a lictor/librarian suffer a mishap, can the enemy place them anywhere on the board or is it anywhere on the board in terrain/within 24 inches? Also, if put back in reserve from a mishap, when they do arrive can the lictor/librarian deepstrike anywhere, or do the initial restrictions of into terrain/within 24 inches still apply?

 

I think that if you would agree that a lictor would have to deploy in terrain even on a mishap, regardless of which type of deepstrike mishap, then the librarian would have to deploy within 24 inches, even on a mishap.

 

Also, to forstall comments about the rulebook saying that 'anywhere on the table' means you can ignore the restriction about terrain/24 inches, the codex restriction > BBB rule, so I dont see the restriction being waived that easily.