Gate of Infinity

[Hexx]

It's kinda amusing how RAW is argued in some threads and RAI in others..

 

Anywhoo.

 

By RAW

-Libby tries to DS (with friends) scatters into bad stuff. rolls a 5 (or 6 iirc), he's placed into reserve.

He has no way to get out of reserve (as it wasn't declared during deployment) so you're out a unit.

That's it,that's all RAW says

 

Nothing in the Librarians power says he can keep the deepstrike rules until next turn to reenter (it says the power works immediately, not "in perpetuity until the unit gets on the table") and (as mentioned by a few) he hasn't been delared to be getting out of reserves during deployment.

So he can't.

The unit would sit in reserves until the game ends, at which point (again iirc) it counts as destroyed.

 

 

 

The lesson here is careful with your units (or don't play people who are really jerks)

 

 

It's very debatable as to if this was the intended sequence of actions, but it was written by the same people who thought the logical progression to improve a stormshield was to go 4+ cc to 3+ against everything so. (yes I had a bad SS experience)

Anyway I think Maniclurker's "solution" is the best for gameplay purposes, and would probably follow that if this ever happened,but really it's not RAW.

[Oldenhaller]

-Libby tries to DS (with friends) scatters into bad stuff. rolls a 5 (or 6 iirc), he's placed into reserve.

He has no way to get out of reserve (as it wasn't declared during deployment) so you're out a unit.

That's it,that's all RAW says

 

Nothing in the Librarians power says he can keep the deepstrike rules until next turn to reenter (it says the power works immediately, not "in perpetuity until the unit gets on the table") and (as mentioned by a few) he hasn't been delared to be getting out of reserves during deployment.

So he can't.

The unit would sit in reserves until the game ends, at which point (again iirc) it counts as destroyed.

 

Don't quite see it that way. The only difference with how the Libby comes into play using deep strike is how he gets there in the first place - using GoI instead of starting in reserves. Thats the only part where the 'dex over-rules the BRB of the deepstrike on how the setup and mishap. The 24" rule covers the initial DS. If the Librarian were to get the placed anywhere on the board mishap result i'd say that that was also restriced by the 24". However as the restriction for the reserves means they are deep striking affresh i'd not say it's affected as it's not part of the initial placement. Could be wrong on the latter part and am happy to discuss that - it's down to the effect of the 'dex on the BRB.

 

To go back to looking at it RAW and quoting from books and the like...

 

The librarian is placed on or off the board in a place it can't setup as part of deepstrike then this ends the GoI part of the activation. He's been placed and then stuff has gone wrong. This is when the BRB kicks in and we then follow the rules for deepstike and mishaps. Logical progression of the rules from one to the next.

 

GoI - Remove from table then use DS rules to complete arriving back on the table within 24"- GoI activation ends

DS - Arrive on table and can't make it.

DS - Can't make it use mishaps table

DS - Mishaps table puts you into reserves from deepstrike

DS - Roll for reserves for any units deepstriking - including those placed there by the mishaps table. Nothing says walk on/use the other reserves rules/be detroyed/etc etc. The rules are use the DS rules for where they land - which also covers problems with arriving.

DS - Deploy as per deepstike rules

 

Technically if a Librarian is travelling on their own they can land in impassible terrain/on top of other models/within an inch of an opponent and suffer no ill effects from the mishap table as "If the Librarian travells alone there is no risk" but that's a whole other matter :D

 

~O

[Souchan]

By RAW

-Libby tries to DS (with friends) scatters into bad stuff. rolls a 5 (or 6 iirc), he's placed into reserve.

He has no way to get out of reserve (as it wasn't declared during deployment) so you're out a unit.

That's it,that's all RAW says

 

I greatly disagree with this. The only thing that needs to be specified is when using a special rule to come on. Anything arriving with the roll automatically walks on unless declared otherwise (P94 BRB "Arriving from reserve")

[Oldenhaller]

Woot!!

 

thanks for pointing out the page -

 

When the reserve unit arrives, it must move onto the table from the controlling player's own table edge (unless it's deep striking or outflanking)

 

so as the librarian is deep striking (and continues to be as he's using the deep striking rules until he actually hits the table) then he must return via deep strike. Unless of course we're now stating that any unit which fails to deep strike now automatically becomes a foot-slogger? A drop pod which has to walk onto the table because of a mishap could be an issue :P

 

Ta Souchan

 

~O

[Souchan]

Woot!!

 

thanks for pointing out the page -

 

When the reserve unit arrives, it must move onto the table from the controlling player's own table edge (unless it's deep striking or outflanking)

 

so as the librarian is deep striking (and continues to be as he's using the deep striking rules until he actually hits the table) then he must return via deep strike. Unless of course we're now stating that any unit which fails to deep strike now automatically becomes a foot-slogger? A drop pod which has to walk onto the table because of a mishap could be an issue :P

 

Ta Souchan

 

~O

 

Only not my point at all, Drop pods for instance have a rule, they always arrive with Deep Strike. GoI is not the same. Nor when being put back into reserves is the unit declared to be deep striking. In fact the rules for any Deep Strike powers entirely forget to consider the mishap tables.

[Oldenhaller]

Heh - sorry if i've mis-interpreted what you ment.

 

The page reffered to states that during setup a player must declare if a unit is arriving from reserves using it's special rule - deep strike in this instance.

 

As the Codex over-rules the declaration of when that happens the unit is still considered to be arriving from deep strike. The question i'd ask here is does a unit using a special rule count as having a special rule.

 

As the unit is then placed back in reserves it's method of geting there is kept the same as the units must dseclare how they're arriving and this maynot be changed. Page 94 paragraph 7

 

I'd say therefore that the BRB is overrulled for how the unit gets to the reserves but they must still use the same method of arriving as they were going to before they were placed in reserves. Ok my retort about drop pods was flipant and ill considered but i hope the point remains the same :P

 

~O

[Souchan]

Heh - sorry if i've mis-interpreted what you ment.

 

The page reffered to states that during setup a player must declare if a unit is arriving from reserves using it's special rule - deep strike in this instance.

 

As the Codex over-rules the declaration of when that happens the unit is still considered to be arriving from deep strike. The question i'd ask here is does a unit using a special rule count as having a special rule.

 

As the unit is then placed back in reserves it's method of geting there is kept the same as the units must dseclare how they're arriving and this maynot be changed. Page 94 paragraph 7

 

I'd say therefore that the BRB is overrulled for how the unit gets to the reserves but they must still use the same method of arriving as they were going to before they were placed in reserves. Ok my retort about drop pods was flipant and ill considered but i hope the point remains the same :cuss

 

~O

 

Well there we go^^ I do understand the point and well, it's just a mess because they obviously never considerd it a possibility. I do say you at least need to keep track of the 24" from the first attempt though.

[maniclurker]

so as the librarian is deep striking (and continues to be as he's using the deep striking rules

How wrong you are. He IS NOT DEEPSTRIKING!!! He is being placed on the board via the deep strike rules.

 

Basically, everyone saying that he retains the ability to deep strike is letting their desires cloud their judgement.

 

I especially like the people who have suggested that it would be limited in range according to the originally GOI location, and that a marker should be used to mark it. For some reason, when I look at the entry, I just can't find where it says to place a marker... interesting. It's almost like people are just making up rules to use this power.

[SeattleDV8]

If it looks like a duck..... If you are placed on the board via the deep striking rules you are deep striking.

Thats what every unit deep striking does.

Terminators are teleported, Jump Infantry are dropped from flying transports, Drop pods are dropped from orbit, Lictors sneak into terrain well before the battle, some units tunnel in.

The only thing that is the same is that they all use the same rule set known as Deep strike.

Generally this is from reserve, and several sections use the wording of coming in from reserve.

GoI is another way to use these rules. It is not a units special rule. It is granted by the psychic power.

This codex special rule over-rules the BRBs general rules in that a unit that normally could not deep strike is now allowed too. It also has a range limit and a chance of destroying a model on a scatter

The unit is removed from the table ,although not in reserve it is in a state like reserve; ie off the table and waiting to come on

When a mishap is rolled and the delayed result is rolled the unit has NOT returned to the table . It remains in the reserve like state.

At that point the unit has not finished the move. The psyhic power moves them off the table and back again.

 

It is not a perfect match because it is a codex rule and not the BRBs

that said the power still requires us to follow the deep strike rules...ALL of them.

Where that unit returns (or is misplaced) is a grey area. a good case could be made for the 24" limit or not. I would tend towards the limit ,but thats just my opinion.

[Blood Scorpion]

I really don't see what the debate is all about here guys, the re-entry via the Deep Strike rules is delayed, not failed, not prevented, not gone wrong, not misplaced off the board, just plain and simply delayed.

 

Follow the Reserves rules to find out how long it is delayed for and then when they are allowed to enter the delay is over and on they come via the Deep Strike rules within 24" of where they left.

 

Am I missing something or is it that simple?

[Steelmage99]

I really don't see what the debate is all about here guys, the re-entry via the Deep Strike rules is delayed, not failed, not prevented, not gone wrong, not misplaced off the board, just plain and simply delayed.

 

Follow the Reserves rules to find out how long it is delayed for and then when they are allowed to enter the delay is over and on they come via the Deep Strike rules within 24" of where they left check the Reserves rule for how they come on.

 

Am I missing something or is it that simple?

 

 

Fixed it for ya.

[Oldenhaller]

so as the librarian is deep striking (and continues to be as he\'s using the deep striking rules

How wrong you are. He IS NOT DEEPSTRIKING!!! He is being placed on the board via the deep strike rules.

 

Basically, everyone saying that he retains the ability to deep strike is letting their desires cloud their judgement.

 

I especially like the people who have suggested that it would be limited in range according to the originally GOI location, and that a marker should be used to mark it. For some reason, when I look at the entry, I just can\'t find where it says to place a marker... interesting. It\'s almost like people are just making up rules to use this power.

 

It appears thaat no-one is deepstriking....

 

The deepstrike rules state :

 

If units in reserve have the \'deep strike\'...special rule, the player must declare to his opponent, during army deployment, weather they are going to use their special rules to deep strike...or they are going to enter from his own table edge when they will become available. This decision may not be changed later.

 

thus all units which wish to use the deepstrike rules require the deepstrike special rule in their entry. These are then placed in reserves and follow all of the special rules for deep strike. any other units which use the deepstrike rules but do not specifically state that they have the deepstike special rule in their rules do not.

 

So far as I can see there are no entrys (either in the BRB or in C:SM) which give this specific special rule. Jump infantry \"may enter the battle bby \'deep strike\'\", terminators \"can be teleported onto the battlefield. They may always start thee game in reserve and arrive using the deep strike rules\". All of these rules are not listed under the special rules sections or for that matter listed as having the special rule \"deep strike\". The only Unit which has a special rule of this nature is the drop pod, but this rule is listed as \"Drop Pod Assault\" which again states that they \"...always enter play using the deep strike rules...\". As none of these unit have the deep stike special ruyle listed under their rules do none of them get to roll for reserves to deep strike again in the following round and walk on - again a problem for the humble drop pod... :)

 

Still tryting to work out by RAW and RAI where the GoI would end up but i\'m not 100% sure. Pretty convinced they get to deep strike anywhere but could be within 24\"....one or the other but definately not walking :)

 

~O

[nighthawks]

personally - I think 24" if delayed, anywhere on the table if misplaced. as there is not actual rule, this is my feeling for it, which it would appear GW wants us to follow.

 

BTW - Oldenhaller - jump infantry and terminator armour both grant the units so equipped with deepstrike, and that does not go away. the drop pod assault raised my curiosity, as there is the requirements that 1/2 (round up) of pods "arrive on the players first turn." I can see issues arrising from that for mishaps, as well. though the answer would seem to be a simple replacement to reserves for delayed pods from turn one - there's always arguments. just look back over the 3 pages of this thread (agreeing that GoI is a much less obvious case).

[Oldenhaller]

The thing with the jump infantry and terminator armour is that they use similar wording to the other deep strike rules (e.G GoI). It states that they arrive using these rather than have the deep strike special rule. I can't seem to find a single unit which is listed as having deep strike (as a specific titled rule) under it's special rules (could be wrong tho...I havn't extensivly searched). To my mind this would suggest that anything which starts deep striking using the deepstriking rules thus has the deepstrike special rule, otherwise they're all in the same boat.

 

In my mind that means that they're all deep striking or none of them are - none of them have the special rule but the rules which they have grant them the ability to use it. Reguarding the drop pod; it starts in reserves, just it's special rules state that half of them turn up on turn one.

 

~O

[Playa]

Hey,

 

The FAQ ruling you are speaking about is for older codex rules i.e. 4th ed and in some cases 3rd Ed rules. Not a rule from the first codex under 5th ed.

 

The problem with GoI vs DS isn't that they're hard to reconcile - it's that they're *impossible* to reconcile.

GoI and DS were incompatible in the first post and, after pages of creative typing later, that hasn't changed:

A Unit which was not declared amongst Reserves at the beginning of the match cannot "go back" into Reserve.

 

Something has to give. These rule discussions usually revolve around deciding which 'something' -

 

Q. If my Codex includes some options (or other

rules) that seem to have no effect in the new

edition ... are you going to publish an errata to

change them to something else that does work?

A. No, if an option (or a rule) clearly has no effect ...

it simply does nothing. We think it’s simpler to just

leave it until the next edition of the Codex rather

than change its effects through an errata.

 

To paraphrase: "We can't be bothered with further errata, so new rules trump old. Deal."

 

So, that "old" DS condition that seems to do nothing when using "new" GoI? It's simply ignored. So on a 5 or a 6, nothing happens.

Embracing this "simple" principle means that the OP's question of "how?" goes away: No Mishap; no redeployment.

Note that this principle is evidently good enough for GW rule developers under v5 . . .

 

 

Playa

[SeattleDV8]

You have tried to use this point before Playa . It does not apply. That FAQ is for OLD codex rules that no longer have effects in 5th ed.

It is not a way to ignore rules you don't like.

 

The main problem the no Mishap side has is the word "Reserves"

As this is a codex rule it can over-rule the BRB.

I have made the points in other posts.

[maniclurker]

You know what, screw it. Noone here can really say someone else's argument isn't valid for one reason or another. Most of you are using ridiculous logic to support your argument. So, if Playa wants to use old crap for proof, more power to him. I with him.

 

The main problem, SeattleDV8, is that they don't have Mer-folk in this game. Then the rules would be way more concise.

[Oldenhaller]

Most of you are using ridiculous logic to support your argument.

 

I'm noticing this in some of your posts manic - things seem to be turning away from the line you want to argue so you throw in with something mildly insulting and inflamitory....no need old chap, all friends here.

 

to address your concerns in a logical fashion;

 

How wrong you are. He IS NOT DEEPSTRIKING!!! He is being placed on the board via the deep strike rules.

 

yup. but as i've proved in a previous post neither are terminators, drop troops or any other unit which does not posses the "deep strike special rule". None of them have said rule which is required in the reserves set-up rules to be placed there for deep strike. Should all these other units should therefore ignore the deepstrike rules/mishaps table etc?

 

Basically, everyone saying that he retains the ability to deep strike is letting their desires cloud their judgement.

 

I'm not sure about that. The rules state that he re-enters play using the deepstrike rules and this therefore includes using all of the mishaps and reserve rules. Where the conflict comes is between being placed "back" in reserves. As explained (and argued:) ) the BRB is trumed by the 'dex when it fcomes to how the troops get there. Indeed other units which do not start in reserve (drop pods for instance which state nothing about being held in reserve, just that they arrive on the first turn. DW terminators which use the same rules eexplicitly state that they're placed in reserve) would have no end of problems arriving on the table by your rationelle.

 

I especially like the people who have suggested that it would be limited in range according to the originally GOI location, and that a marker should be used to mark it. For some reason, when I look at the entry, I just can't find where it says to place a marker... interesting. It's almost like people are just making up rules to use this power.

 

I belive that players are using some expedient method to mark where the unit has moved from and thus placed back to...not really making up a rule but more trying to make the play fair. I'm sure that if the librarian was picked up, placed and then my opponent changed their mind I'd be quite happy if they had a marker on the board to show where it was moved from.

 

To address the idea of where they go it's a question of how the rules for GoI interact with the mishaps table. More importantly, where does the GoI activation end. If the GoI completes the moment when the model is placed back on the board using the Deep strike rules and then the mishap happens placing the model "back" in reserve then i'd say anywhere on the table as the model and it's attendant unit is now following the DS rules for reserves. If the GoI only ends when the minatures have all returned to the table using all of the DS rules (including mishaps) then the unit must come back within 24" of the original location. Now if this is the case...while i'm sure that most players wil be able to remember exactly where the minature has been moved from (sic) I'd be happier, as the model must go from within 24" of where it originally stood, if there was something to demarcate where this was.

 

And you're right...merfolk would make the rules go more swimmingly...sorry...I'll get my hat...:)

[SeattleDV8]

Oh Dude you didn't...heh. you should be PUNished...lol

One of the best jobs in gaming....the FAQ and errat writers from MtGs. Yes they do do an excellent job, but thats because the revamp the rules so often. that and the endless new cards is why I left that game.

If I tried to restart playing I would be back to square one.

I had a several year break from 40K. I was playing 2ed. came back in the end of 4th. A new rule book and a codex (DA) and I was good to go.

Yes there are down sides to GW but the Up sides far outshine them.