minigun762 Posted December 12, 2008 Share Posted December 12, 2008 First off, I'm a big baby when it comes to metal models. I just won't buy or play with them, so I'm stuck to the plastics. That being said, since all the big guys are metal, how effective is an army that relies on the little ones to do its work? I'm thinking the true Daemon swarm, 75+ models in a 1500 point game, most of which are scoring units. Can you be successful by simply overwhelming your opponent, like deepstriking, Inv saving Orks? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/154769-can-you-get-by-without-the-big-guys/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Malachi Posted December 12, 2008 Share Posted December 12, 2008 It would be interesting, and probably effective some of the time, but certainly not going to be winning any tournaments any time soon. Problem is, horrors are metal as well, so you're basically eliminating any shooting power you might have had by sticking to plastics. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/154769-can-you-get-by-without-the-big-guys/#findComment-1805631 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redbaron997 Posted December 12, 2008 Share Posted December 12, 2008 Well Daemon Prines are gonna be plastic in a bit. and I am gonna use them for my Bloodthirsters myself because thier plastic and the old BTs look silly. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/154769-can-you-get-by-without-the-big-guys/#findComment-1805820 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted December 13, 2008 Share Posted December 13, 2008 You can easily get by without greater daemons; I do at least. Granted, it's a bit tougher fight without the easy point & click interface of a greater daemon, but it's more rewarding. And I like heralds a lot for spreading the carnage around. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/154769-can-you-get-by-without-the-big-guys/#findComment-1805942 Share on other sites More sharing options...
==Me== Posted December 13, 2008 Share Posted December 13, 2008 Soul Grinders are plastic and soon DPs will be as well, you'll have plenty of big guys available :lol: An army of smaller Daemons could work, it could work well actually. To avoid metal models, go ahead and convert away. 4 Heralds of Slaanesh on chariots (Daemonette combined with TK chariot with Goblin Spiders to pull it, works for ==Me==), Fiends, Plaguebearers and Horrors for Troops, Flesh Hounds/Seekers, and Bloodcrushers would be good for this sort of thing. Fiends and Slaanesh Heralds are so much win with all their speed, attacks, and low cost, PBs can be made from FB Ghouls or Zombies, Horrors can be made from Dryads, Seekers can be made from Daemonettes and Goblin Spiders (spider-centaur thing), and so on. It can definitely work, what were you planning on using? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/154769-can-you-get-by-without-the-big-guys/#findComment-1805953 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted December 13, 2008 Author Share Posted December 13, 2008 Horrors can be made from Dryads Hey that was one of my ideas! haha. Well I didn't want to make this about me specifically, even though I do have some ideas of a decent functional list using small guys. The biggest problem I see is that 3 of the 4 main anti-tank choices we have are the Greater Daemons, Daemon Prince and Soul Grinders, so basically all the big guys. Not to take them makes you really focus on the Screamers or high S Rending units which tend to be expensive. As I mentioned in the anti-tank thread, you can get by for most anti-tank just using Daemonettes and Bloodletters, but Skimmers, Monoliths and AV12 Walkers are going to be tough if not impossible to down effectively. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/154769-can-you-get-by-without-the-big-guys/#findComment-1805963 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted December 13, 2008 Share Posted December 13, 2008 Flamers work wonders, as does bolt of change on flamers or horrors. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/154769-can-you-get-by-without-the-big-guys/#findComment-1806012 Share on other sites More sharing options...
==Me== Posted December 13, 2008 Share Posted December 13, 2008 Just for fun, here's a 1750 list of no big 'uns HQ 4x Herald of Slaanesh on chariot Elite 2x 6 Fiends 4 Bloodcrushers (icon, fury, musician for wound allocation) Troops 2x 12 PBs w/ icons 10 Horrors w/ bolt, changeling Fast Attack 12 Seekers 2x 4 Screamers That's a crap load of cavalry, a crap load of rending, and plenty of AT from Screamers/rending. Crushers deliver the coup de grace and PBs hold objectives/icons. Horrors provide some extra dakka, but they can be swapped for more PBs if needed. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/154769-can-you-get-by-without-the-big-guys/#findComment-1806039 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raptor1313 Posted December 13, 2008 Share Posted December 13, 2008 Flamers and Heralds of Tzeentch are excellent sources of anti-tank shooting. Beyond that, most of our gribblies are fine in assault. As long as you bring a way to deal with tanks (Tzeentchian bolts), Hordes (most of our troops in melee, Fiends, Horrors) and Uber-melee guys like Nobs and Hammer-shield terminators and Seer councils (Bloodcrushers, MCs, or enough of our basic troops) then you're good. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/154769-can-you-get-by-without-the-big-guys/#findComment-1806163 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soupcat Posted December 13, 2008 Share Posted December 13, 2008 In regards to the your distaste for metal? Is it just the big stuff? As everything in ==ME=='s list is actually metal... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/154769-can-you-get-by-without-the-big-guys/#findComment-1806512 Share on other sites More sharing options...
==Me== Posted December 13, 2008 Share Posted December 13, 2008 Not if you convert everything ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/154769-can-you-get-by-without-the-big-guys/#findComment-1806521 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Malachi Posted December 13, 2008 Share Posted December 13, 2008 Ah, but ==Me==, if you're going to convert everything, why not convert the big guys? :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/154769-can-you-get-by-without-the-big-guys/#findComment-1806543 Share on other sites More sharing options...
==Me== Posted December 13, 2008 Share Posted December 13, 2008 Big guys are harder to convert, more bits and all that :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/154769-can-you-get-by-without-the-big-guys/#findComment-1806677 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Malachi Posted December 13, 2008 Share Posted December 13, 2008 I'm not sure I'd agree with that actually, I mean yes, each prince is harder to convert than a single horror, but when you're making 10 horrors at a time, it balances out. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/154769-can-you-get-by-without-the-big-guys/#findComment-1806697 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zealot Of Chaos Posted December 16, 2008 Share Posted December 16, 2008 for my big guys I use the figures from Ultraforge, all resin so no metal nasties because I am also of the school of metal is bad, that leaves me to only have to convert the little guys Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/154769-can-you-get-by-without-the-big-guys/#findComment-1810409 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morte Posted December 20, 2008 Share Posted December 20, 2008 I hate metal models too, so I have a themed Khorne army made entirely from plastics. I've converted plastic Heralds of Khorne, used Wood Elf Dryads as my Flamers (give them a fiery looking paint scheme and they're fairly convincing, plus 12 high-points models from a fairly cheap box of plastics is fantastic. I have a soul grinder as well as my anti-tank, and I bought a plastic Balrog from the LOTR range as my Bloodthirster. It's completely possible if you're inventive. I'm trying to figure out the best way to represent bloodcrushers - mounted daemons are easy enough to model from plastic, but I love the Juggernaught models so I'm still trying to figure out a replacement that's equally badass. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/154769-can-you-get-by-without-the-big-guys/#findComment-1814271 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giant Fossil Penguin Posted December 26, 2008 Share Posted December 26, 2008 I'm just starting on this idea, and I've seen somebody else mention it as well, but have you thought of the new Chaos Knights for Bloodcrushers? Paint 'em up all brassy, maybe paint the Knights themselves to look a bit like 'letters. That's what I'm doing anyway. I hope it comes out as well as my Cold One Knights/Seekers. GFP EDIT: Typo's Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/154769-can-you-get-by-without-the-big-guys/#findComment-1820394 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted December 26, 2008 Author Share Posted December 26, 2008 Chaos Knights for Bloodcrushers? Paint 'em up all brassy, maybe paint the Knights themselves to look a bit like 'letters. Thats not a bad idea, though you could probably just plop the Bloodletter's heads/arms onto the Warriors body, that might make it more convincing. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/154769-can-you-get-by-without-the-big-guys/#findComment-1820600 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giant Fossil Penguin Posted December 26, 2008 Share Posted December 26, 2008 I'm lazy and cheap. My Daemons have a number of 'mortals' as Heralds and such. I envision the army and its units as being a testing ground for those that the Gods want to test before they elevate them to daemonic status. As to getting by without MCs; The GUO isn't that bad to put together and is quite useful on the battlefield. With Noxious Touch for re-roll to wound and Cloud of Flies (?) for grenades, he's expensive but multi-roled. The new plastic DP will make things much easier. Counts-as much? GFP Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/154769-can-you-get-by-without-the-big-guys/#findComment-1820765 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inquisitor_Fox Posted December 28, 2008 Share Posted December 28, 2008 i got 20 metal plague bearers for about £30, and i aint all that fussed about metal models, i find them more enjoyable to paint actually... but thats just me... i dont see how you'd convert screamers or flamers to be honest... yeah athere is a long list of metals that can be rep[laced and we are getting a second release in april to facilitate this ... as for massed infantry anti tank... you only true answer is to resort to tzeentch and the flamers... cos ONE horor with Bolt wont solve the age old land raider problem but a unit of 6 flamers each with breath probably will!! Horrors on their own as a unit of, say 12 (if we use the dryads as conversions), have 48 shots.... hitting on a 3+ that means 2/3 hit... so about 32 hit... against MEQ that means 50% of those wound, say 16. then we have saves at 3+, which means we kill 5 marines... i like those odds, especially as most of the marine players i know like to combat squad. against horde, say orcs... thats 32 hits... 50% wound thats 16 dead as it is AP4.... again that is ace... Hmmmm gotta get meself some horrors!! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/154769-can-you-get-by-without-the-big-guys/#findComment-1821571 Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyescrossed Posted December 28, 2008 Share Posted December 28, 2008 Horrors on their own as a unit of, say 12 (if we use the dryads as conversions), have 48 shots.... hitting on a 3+ that means 2/3 hit... so about 32 hit... against MEQ that means 50% of those wound, say 16. then we have saves at 3+, which means we kill 5 marines... i like those odds, especially as most of the marine players i know like to combat squad. against horde, say orcs... thats 32 hits... 50% wound thats 16 dead as it is AP4.... again that is ace... Hmmmm gotta get meself some horrors!! Your math hammer's off - horrors only get 3 shots each, so that's 36 shots, and they're BS3, not 4, so 18 hit, and 9 wound against orks, but against marines, only 3 will die. Oh, and your math was based on the premise that the orks weren't in cover, which they most certainly will be, so that's 4.5 wounds. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/154769-can-you-get-by-without-the-big-guys/#findComment-1821607 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inquisitor_Fox Posted December 29, 2008 Share Posted December 29, 2008 *raises hands in defeat and begs not to be discombobulated* Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/154769-can-you-get-by-without-the-big-guys/#findComment-1822617 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Malachi Posted December 29, 2008 Share Posted December 29, 2008 Still, a 1/4 chance of killing a marine for each horror every turn isn't that bad, and a 3/4 chance of killing an ork per horror per turn is quite nice. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/154769-can-you-get-by-without-the-big-guys/#findComment-1822836 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inquisitor_Fox Posted December 30, 2008 Share Posted December 30, 2008 considering that horrors are our most expensive troops choice vs marines... thats not really good enough, andf against orks.... thats just cack.... but i am gonna have some anyway cos i think a mob of em screening daemonettes or Blood letters is a good idea, enemy get close to the horrors, horrors fall back to just in front of HtH unit HtH unit charges uin and eats orks... lol.... thinking it might work.. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/154769-can-you-get-by-without-the-big-guys/#findComment-1823762 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted December 30, 2008 Author Share Posted December 30, 2008 Well the advantage of Horrors is that they can do something the turn they deep strike in. The best anyone else can do is Run or Fleet. I think Horrors probably make for the best 1st wave Troops. Take a good sized squad (10 guys) and an Icon. Unless they get assaulted by something scary, they're likely to survive most incoming firepower simply because of that 4+ save and they can dish out a fair amount of dakka when they land. Then have the other nasty assaulters come in and mop up. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/154769-can-you-get-by-without-the-big-guys/#findComment-1824200 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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