IA: Exonerators

[Apothete]

Alright, so that's yet another revision in the can.

 

I mostly spent my time on Sigismund's critique, focusing upon the Origins, Homeworld, and Beliefs sections, though there are edits and changes almost everywhere in the writeup. Yes, it got a little longer, but I see that as my trying to get the focus right before I start slashing words out again.

 

Notable changes:

1. I made mention of the Scrutators and their purpose earlier in the article through a sidebar.
   
2. The focus and outcome of the huge battle was changed, along with toning down the deaths in exchange for giving them a reason to care about it beyond just a loss of Brothers. Massacres are being overdone and I'm trying to move away from that.
   
3. Gone is the willing abdication of possession on Battle Barges, since I'm already having them possess ships that they shouldn't.
   
4. More details have been filled in on the Great Mission, the Libris Omnis and its secret, the Conclave in general, and more consequences of their beliefs and doctrines.
   

 

So... How's it looking now? What glaringly obvious things have I missed?

[Telveryon]

I've re-read the whole thing, there is definite improvement and a very good read, but there are a few nitpicks that either have snuck in or I've mist the last time around.

 

First and foremost, you haven't placed them in a founding, we can guess that it's the 23rd Founding, but not everybody knows enough about the Ghost War to hazard such a guess.

 

Secondly:

Over the ensuing years, prize ships were taken and secretly repurposed, with the largest of these retained and modified to become mining platforms, additional forges, and mobile repair yards, decentralizing the fleet's support mechanisms and enabling long-term deployment of Companies away from the star fortress. Most secret of all, a number of formerly Imperial warships augment the Chapter's naval might, though these ships are carefully concealed from enemy and ally alike, used only within the Eye or within the concealment of its far side. Were the true scope of the fleet to become known to the Adeptus Terra or Inquisition, there would be a reckoning, though the sheer distance and mobility of the Chapter makes this a more limited risk than it would otherwise seem.

I'm sorry to say this, but this sounds a bit MISS. They have far to many naval assets for a single chapter while adding very little to the chapter as a whole. Frankly, I found the cooler when they only had a forge ship and strike cruisers. But now they have everything including the kitchen sink, there is too much bling! You really should tone it down a bit.

 

Thirdly, the gestalt consciousness is plunk down a bit out of the blue. There is no reason behind the Exonerators creating it. And we all know that we need reasons for every quirk, don't we?

 

countless centuries of work by sympathetic Magos Biologans and the Scrutators had been incinerated amongst the wreckage of the auxiliary fleet.

I'm pretty sure it's Magos Biologis.

 

As a consequence of this reliance upon coordination, only the most experienced of Brothers handle the heavier weaponry so that their greater precision allows for close support of their comrades with a minimum of friendly casualties.

We're talking here about supremely skilled man-tanks (to steal a word), I'm pretty sure a marine shooting one of his brothers in the back by accident would be tried for incompetence.

 

The forces of the Chapter are arranged into eight Companies

Where's the reason for this little deviation? Have we forgotten our own guide? ;) The why is the key!

 

This is viewed as the greatest honor of all, for it serves both allegiances of the warrior cult in granting even greater ability to fight the enemies of the Imperium while also granting closer insight into the workings of the Omnissiah and communium with the mind-ghosts of departed Brothers within the Librarium Omnis.

It seems to me that there's allot of grating going on in a single sentence...

 

However, once he has returned to service amongst his former command, the goal is not to remain forever above them but to phase in the junior officer who is interpreting his orders while he is still lucid and human enough to remain.

It may be just me but this sentence seems to end a bit abruptly.

 

These are all the nitpicks I could find, but otherwise it's an awesome piece of work!

Edited April 4, 2010 by Telveryon

[Apothete]

First and foremost, you haven't placed them in a founding, we can guess that it's the 23rd Founding, but not everybody knows enough about the Ghost War to hazard such a guess.

 

See, that's the kind of thing that I need other people to point out for me. I know where they fall and you know where they fall but that isn't going to be obvious to everyone.

 

I'm sorry to say this, but this sounds a bit MISS. They have far to many naval assets for a single chapter while adding very little to the chapter as a whole. Frankly, I found the cooler when they only had a forge ship and strike cruisers. But now they have everything including the kitchen sink, there is too much bling! You really should tone it down a bit.

 

I may have explained it poorly, but the reason that I feel it isn't MISS is that they're not able to openly deploy their naval assets the same way that a First Founding Chapter would. Instead, they're kept hidden away from the Imperium and only used as a furthering of their attempts to purge, harvest, and reseed the far reaches of the Eye and the particular portion of the Scarus Sector that they protect. One might even argue that the ships are a liability as much as they are an asset, because it would look to an outsider as if the Exonerators were attempting to mass enough forces to seceed, especially if the eugenics programs and Gethesmenite heresies come to light.

 

We are, after all, discussing a Chapter of transhumanist supermen who are trying to create a perfect man in their imperfect understanding of what the Emperor desired. Their hubris is a part of what has them keeping the ships instead of turning them over for recommission into the Imperial Navy, though they do send some of the reclaimed hulls back. Perhaps even most, though I'll give the tone of this section some more thought.

 

Thirdly, the gestalt consciousness is plunk down a bit out of the blue. There is no reason behind the Exonerators creating it. And we all know that we need reasons for every quirk, don't we?

 

Once again, this is probably an issue with the way that I've currently written it rather than it being completely unsupported.

 

As I stated in response to Tyrak earlier, I see the gestalt consciousness as a natural outgrowth of their blinkered fascination with archeotech, the constant communion of having a bionic-implant vox network, and a logical conclusion for the Chapter to reach once they discover that the teaching machines can function in more than one direction. If you have warriors too crippled to fight and fear that they might waste away in menial cybernetic servitude or stasis, but not enough Dreadnought hulls to go around, then why not allow imprinting of their minds so that they might add to the voracious thirst for knowledge while still guiding their younger Brothers on the path laid out before them? They already break away from the doctrinarian view of the Imperial Cult and don't really follow the standard Asatartes beliefs, either, so it's no great leap to decide that their cousins could be wrong about machine ghosts as well.

 

Could you be more specific about anything in that aspect which bothers you? It'll give me a place to further explain when I get back to the next revision.

 

I'm pretty sure it's Magos Biologis.

 

I wasn't entirely sure myself, but my reasoning was that we have theologians for theology, so you might have biologians for biology.

 

We're talking here about supremely skilled man-tanks (to steal a word), I'm pretty sure a marine shooting one of his brothers in the back by accident would be tried for incompetence.

 

True, but it's one of the peculiarities of the Chapter which I think makes sense, especially in light of vox network and the process of learning to better work with the rest of one's Brothers. If you're an Assault Marine or a Tactical Marine, then the odds of you accidentally doing something which will kill an ally are much lower than if you're the one driving a tank, toting a huge plasma reactor that spits explosive balls of the stuff, or coordinating the actions of those in your squad. That's why the heirarchy in the Exonerators follow, in my mind, the more logical progression from Scout to Assault, then Tactical, Specialist (special weapons, Techmarine, Scrutator, Devestator), and finally Veteran.

 

Where's the reason for this little deviation? Have we forgotten our own guide?

 

Honestly, I'm not entirely sure why I originally set the number of Companies at being eight, but I think it was because I was going to justify it through their high rate of attrition. In any case, it'll either be explained or removed in the next revision.

 

Good catch.

 

It seems to me that there's allot of grating going on in a single sentence...

 

Oh, ow.

 

Caught in my own biggest criticism!

 

It may be just me but this sentence seems to end a bit abruptly.

 

You're right, that does read as too abrupt. I hadn't gotten too far past the first portion of the Beliefs section before posting the revision that's currently up, so that must have slipped by.

[Telveryon]

Once again, this is probably an issue with the way that I've currently written it rather than it being completely unsupported.

 

As I stated in response to Tyrak earlier, I see the gestalt consciousness as a natural outgrowth of their blinkered fascination with archeotech, the constant communion of having a bionic-implant vox network, and a logical conclusion for the Chapter to reach once they discover that the teaching machines can function in more than one direction. If you have warriors too crippled to fight and fear that they might waste away in menial cybernetic servitude or stasis, but not enough Dreadnought hulls to go around, then why not allow imprinting of their minds so that they might add to the voracious thirst for knowledge while still guiding their younger Brothers on the path laid out before them? They already break away from the doctrinarian view of the Imperial Cult and don't really follow the standard Asatartes beliefs, either, so it's no great leap to decide that their cousins could be wrong about machine ghosts as well.

 

Could you be more specific about anything in that aspect which bothers you? It'll give me a place to further explain when I get back to the next revision.

There is nothing conceptually wrong with this idea, I actually like the concept very much the only problem is that it doesn't derive naturally from what has been said above.

 

I wasn't entirely sure myself, but my reasoning was that we have theologians for theology, so you might have biologians for biology.

Hey, this is GW pig-Lating! If they said it's Magos Biologis, then it's Magus Biologis no matter what real world languages say!

 

True, but it's one of the peculiarities of the Chapter which I think makes sense, especially in light of vox network and the process of learning to better work with the rest of one's Brothers. If you're an Assault Marine or a Tactical Marine, then the odds of you accidentally doing something which will kill an ally are much lower than if you're the one driving a tank, toting a huge plasma reactor that spits explosive balls of the stuff, or coordinating the actions of those in your squad. That's why the heirarchy in the Exonerators follow, in my mind, the more logical progression from Scout to Assault, then Tactical, Specialist (special weapons, Techmarine, Scrutator, Devestator), and finally Veteran.

Again, the concept is not flawed, but your wording seems to imply that friendly fire is quite common among space marines (which it isn't). You could say that Exonerators give their heavy weapons to their more experienced brother because they can get the most out of them.

 

Oh, ow.

 

Caught in my own biggest criticism!

Hehehe!

 

But threat, nobody's perfect, a few such mistakes might go by anyone.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

I have had a read through - but other factors keep me from going totally in depth at the moment - so I shall this:

 

Overall it seems to be coming together but there are concerns that have been raised already by Telveryon so I won't batter you with them.

 

I liek the ideas within the IA and shall keep a semi-close eye upon it for future developments.

 

:)

[Commissar Molotov]

Well, hey there. :(

 

As per your request, I had a leaf through your article. It's changed a great deal since December 2008. I come to your Chapter knowing (and remembering) very litte. I'm arguably your target audience in that sense - I've not been so caught up in the minutiae.

 

In totality, I was quite disappointed with your article. Clearly you've got some good concepts (though you could argue that there are perhaps too many ideas for a single Chapter) but they're often obfuscated or simply not conveyed to the reader. At several times I felt like I had to struggle to understand, or I felt like I was having to put the pieces together myself in a way that wasn't very gratifying. The article seems to comprise a multitude of disparate sections, not a complete whole that "flows".

 

Straight away, I'd suggest that you restructure the article like so:

 

• Origins
  
• Homeworld
  
• Beliefs
  
• Organisation
  
• Combat Doctrine
  
• Gene-Seed
  

 

Though that's based on the text you've already got in place, it would probably give you a better structure. You have a tendency to tell people things before explaining what they are, and this would minimise that to some extent.

 

With that said, I'll move onto some other issues. I'm not discussing grammar and structural issues in depth because I believe that putting up wallpaper whilst the foundations are still unstable is ultimately self-defeating - such things could be tackled at a later date.

 

What is the Chapter symbol? I'm curious.

 

Your initial quote strikes me as being too long and too complex. If you're trying to distil the Chapter theme into one bitesize chunk for the reader to digest, I think you're failing. It should be shortened markedly, or else left out. In some places it's difficult to follow. It also doesn't seem to be followed up later.

 

With regards to your Origins section, I don't believe that you need to specify a founding. The Liber can sometimes be a little too obsessive about such details. It doesn't make that much difference to your Chapter's theme whether you're a seventeenth founding or an eighteenth founding. That's not what makes your Chapter different. You do need to give your reader some context as to quite how old the Chapter is. I understand that the Ghost War was in 811.M37, so writing something like "the closing centuries of the thirty-seventh millennium" is enough for the reader to get a grasp of just about when the Chapter was created without having to explicitly state a year (which doesn't really help you that much) - though I would perhaps mention that the Ghsot War was Abbadon's 7th Black Crusade.

 

(I will at this point note that I really tend to dislike DIY Chapters formed from Iron Hands gene-seed, though that's my individual prejudice - I find them difficult to work very well.)

 

Although I know you've done this before, I think you ought to look at the Chapter name - Exonerators. My dictionary says that 'Exonerate' is "to free from blame, responsibility, obligation or task." It is a name that seems somewhat... charitable, and I think you need to explore the reasons for the name being chosen - both in your mine and that of the original founders of the Chapter. The way you've written the origins section suggests that the Chapter was named before being given to Dedlok - is that the case?

 

("Talo Dedlok" isn't really a very Medusan name compared to Raukaan, Vurgaan, Sorrgol, Kaargul, Garrsak, Bannus, Imanol, Blantar, Gdolkin and Santar. The only "Dedlok" I know of is a metal band, and whilst that might be fitting for the Iron Hands, it's more than a little grating when I'm reading "deadlock"!)

 

I think the Scrutators are mentioned too early in the article. The side-bar you've got does little to help. Equally, the search for the "new man" is too early and is not carried properly throughout the article. The origins section as a whole is very dense and could do with re-working. Many parts could be edited and moved around to alternate sections of the article. The Scrutators should go to the organisation section (as should the Conclave!), Whilst the battle of the Rubicon Straits could be excised entirely. (What does it add?)

 

Moving on to the Homeworld section - You can't really call the Ramilies a "fortress ship", and the Imperial Navy can't truly complain about its armaments. It's worth noting this about the Ramilies, according to this PDF:

 

The greatest advantage of the Ramilies by far is that its powerful generators can erect a warp-bubble over the entire structure enabling it, with the aid of seventeen navigators and an attendant fleet of tugs, supply ships, warships and system craft, to enter the Warp and be towed to different star systems. This operation, always perilous, has resulted in the loss of over twelve hundred Ramilies stars forts in their ten millennia of service to the Emperor.

 

Other Chapters are known to use the Ramilies (the Relictors are an example) but it's not really the sort of thing you have to worry about. I would suggest removing that section entirely. You could arguably move the section about the repurposed fleet assets here if you wanted, though.

 

Your Combat Doctrine does pose questions to me, and I would echo the comments someone else made about "friendly fire", which would be an impossibly rare thing for the Astartes. What you seem to be trying to say is that the level of coordination the Exonerators display allows the Marines to operate perilously close to heavy weapons fire, confident in the knowledge that they will be safe. (?)

 

Your organisation section is very dense as well, I think - I'm not sure the section on the dreadnoughts needs to be so long. I would also not that perhaps it would have been better to explicitly state that your Chapter is part of the Praeses in the Origins section.

 

It is worth noting why the Chapter Master, coming from the Iron Hands, reverted to a more Codex structure. Why abandon aspects close to the Iron Hands? Each Company competing to strengthen the whole? Each Company recruiting its own initiaties? A council ruling the Chapter?

 

Again, you mention "secrecy [...] necessary to their great plan" but I'm lost - why do their plans (whatever they are) require secrecy, especially within the ranks of their closer-than-normal Chapter?

 

The "Role of Acceptance" sidebar serves no real purpose to the article and should be cut.

 

In the Beliefs section, the Machine Ghosts are not really very well explained (to my mind) and should be made clearer, especially as to who they are imprinted on. Do particularly gifted candidates voluntarily undergo mind-scrubbing to allow these figures to rise again? It's not clear.

 

"The mere existence of the Grand Conclave would be enough to surprise many if they were to become aware of it..." Why?

 

I would also note that the Beliefs section is clearly the best place to discuss their views on Man, their quest for this "new Man" and their views on the superiority of the Astartes. If this theme is so important to the Chapter, I would question why it's not in there. Again, the obsession with the "future" that bookends the article in the first quote and the battle-cry is not really touched upon in the whole article. Why do they care about the future? Do their librarians attempt to divine the future?

 

 

What steps are taken to enhance the bond between brothers in this Chapter? You seem to desire a Chapter whose individual Marines can always communicate. What consequences does this bond have? What might it do to the initiation rites? There might be a greater focus on the success of the squad rather than the success of the individual. It might lead to difficulties if a Marine dies. You've got some interesting (if contradictory) themes; you simply need to thread them through the article. Consider trying to simplify the Chapter - the focus on the "new man" simply confuses the issue, I think, and should be excised from the Chapter entirely.

[Apothete]

I've whipped up a from-scratch draft of the second reboot. The current text is in no way final and merely intended as a way to organize ideas that I'm juggling, trying to find the right tone and amount of explanation in their Origins segment. It is also in no way complete, as there will be more material after the point I've reached, but I want to get some criticism to see how well this hangs together before I start trying to add on or modify it.

[Ace Debonair]

Hey, that seems pretty cool.

 

It's a bit long, though, I thought.

Perhaps chopping down details of the battle in which the company is atomized might help.

 

I didn't really spot any other errors, and am quite interested in seeing how this chapter develops. Good stuff!

[Apothete]

Hey, that seems pretty cool.

 

It's a bit long, though, I thought.

Perhaps chopping down details of the battle in which the company is atomized might help.

 

Thanks for the praise and the suggestions.

 

I find it interesting that you say that it's too long, considering that the previous edition of the Chapter had an Origins header which, even without sidebars, was over five hundred words longer than what I have here. My guess would be that it's a combination of my usual verbosity and the fact that it isn't broken up visually as much as the older text was, since I have no sidebars, images, or other tricks to make the text look less monotonous.

 

The battle is described as it is to show the warring imperatives to better the Imperium and to not tolerate weakness and failure. In themselves, their answer to losing is a tendency to seek ever more extreme modifications through multiple means. For others, it's generally going to be death or forcible participation in their genetic modification program, which I also attempted to write in.

 

I didn't really spot any other errors, and am quite interested in seeing how this chapter develops. Good stuff!

 

If you read the previous draft, then you already know many of the themes that I'll be exploring in this writeup. The Chapter name has changed, they're in the process of having a symbol finalized, and I'm putting some of the ides I had before on the chopping block if it means that the three core aspects are clearer to others. I've also moved the horrible losses back from their current form to a previous Chapter whose colors they have been given, which is something I don't recall seeing anyone else do recently.

 

In totality, I was quite disappointed with your article. Clearly you've got some good concepts (though you could argue that there are perhaps too many ideas for a single Chapter) but they're often obfuscated or simply not conveyed to the reader. At several times I felt like I had to struggle to understand, or I felt like I was having to put the pieces together myself in a way that wasn't very gratifying. The article seems to comprise a multitude of disparate sections, not a complete whole that "flows".

 

As much as hearing words like "disappointed" stings a writer, I'd also rather be cognizant of major issues and work on fixing them instead of receiving hollow praise. I've been weighing out my ideas and seeing which ones feel like they have to stay, which might be able to be feasibly woven together, and which ought to be cut for clarity and brevity's sake. My tendency to be an idea machine is not always an asset when it comes to free association, which is basically what this kind of project is when I don't either constrain myself of have someone else help me do it.

 

Of course, that's part of what the Liber is for.

 

What is the Chapter symbol? I'm curious.

 

Originally, the Exonerators were going to have a symbol that was some variant on a clenched gauntlet over a black and white symbol that was half Mechanicus cog, half Astartes Iron Halo. I decided that would be too difficult to paint onto overy single model, so I started exploring alternatives, none of which seemed entirely pleasing to me. The line about Dreadnoughts which referenced their wargear loadout was from a draft where this was still the plan I had for the heraldry.

 

After that, I started trying to come up with something simpler but still evocative of the themes that I wanted. The reason none was ever named was that I honestly couldn't derive symbology which seemed to be appropriate while still being within my creative abilities to model.

 

Now, with the Iron Eagles renaming, I'm weighing a number of options and haven't quite made my mind up yet. The first involves using a metallic Raptors-style eagle head backed with the halfed Opus-Iron Halo in black and white. Alternatively, the same design with just the cog would work, but I'm planning on using a lot of the Mk VII chests with the Aquila to represent their dedication to both Mars and the Imperium, so that doesn't seem quite right. Another possibility would be to double-head the eagle and blind one of them, invoking the meaning of the Aquila without using the entire device.

 

Perhaps someone has a suggestion?

 

With regards to your Origins section, I don't believe that you need to specify a founding. The Liber can sometimes be a little too obsessive about such details. It doesn't make that much difference to your Chapter's theme whether you're a seventeenth founding or an eighteenth founding. That's not what makes your Chapter different. You do need to give your reader some context as to quite how old the Chapter is. I understand that the Ghost War was in 811.M37, so writing something like "the closing centuries of the thirty-seventh millennium" is enough for the reader to get a grasp of just about when the Chapter was created without having to explicitly state a year (which doesn't really help you that much) - though I would perhaps mention that the Ghsot War was Abbadon's 7th Black Crusade.

 

The Liber can be obsessive about a lot of things, which I'm probably not helping.

 

I've put more overt references in the current draft, while also tying them specifically to the Black Crusades - both in their original death and the eventual resurrection. There's no specific year mentioned, but a reference to major events which are, themselves, vaguely defined on the timeline ought to be enough, yes?

 

The way you've written the origins section suggests that the Chapter was named before being given to Dedlok - is that the case?

 

I think that the current draft offers an out on the naming front, in that their heraldry and naming are being handed down by the Adeptus Terra. I didn't want to ditch the name but I'm trying to be honest about what does and doesn't work, which is why there's a total rewrite in progress.

 

Do you think that what I've done with the opening of the Origins section is enough or should there be explicit discussion of the reasons for the original Chapter's naming? My feeling is that the previous bearers' reasoning is next to meaningless, as they're being used almost entirely as a backdrop against which to build the current Iron Eagle's fear of failure to a point where they become even more extreme than the Iron Hands. They're not necessarily better then their primogenitors but they're adopting means which would probably not go over well if they became more publicly known, all in the cause of creating better Marines and better humans.

 

"Talo Dedlok" isn't really a very Medusan name compared to Raukaan, Vurgaan, Sorrgol, Kaargul, Garrsak, Bannus, Imanol, Blantar, Gdolkin and Santar. The only "Dedlok" I know of is a metal band, and whilst that might be fitting for the Iron Hands, it's more than a little grating when I'm reading "deadlock"!

 

Talo is a shortened form of Talos, who is prominent in Greek mythology as a guardian made of brass who circles the island of Crete. The Iron Eagles nee Exonerators are men with extensive bionic modifications who move in a big circle around their sworn protectorate. I only removed the proper form of the name as a nod to those who felt that Aaron Dembski-Bowden's use of the name in a recent book made me look like I was stealing it.

 

My use of Dedlok is at Octavulg's behest, and also a corruption of a proper name. This time, it's a reference to an old comic called ABC Warriors, which dealt with a psychically empowered cyborg that fought wars for an uncaring, ungrateful human populace. Deathlok was the leader of his band and responsible for much of its character during his tenure, and thus seemed like a halfway apt reference for what I was aiming to do. That the creation of the robotic body is done from a fallen soldier who is struggling to retain his humanity, even as he fights a war against corruption and tyrrany is even more appropriate. I'm sorry that you find it so grating.

 

On the subject of Medusan names, the ones which you cite don't really give us a whole lot to go on, aside from the double-A construction, which doesn't even seem to apply completely across just that list. Some of them are gutteral, glottal nightmares, others are relatively "normal" or not truly fitting that pattern, such as Gabriel Santar, Paullian Blantar, Talumech (Venerable Dreadnought), Venerated Axagoras (also a Venerable Dreadnought), Ishmael 192 (servitor), Reuban, Melchor, Miel Erastus (Sergeant), Zuriel (Devestator), and Orban Lomax (Iron Father). As such, I would argue that Medusan names don't always fit a given pattern.

 

I think the Scrutators are mentioned too early in the article. The side-bar you've got does little to help. Equally, the search for the "new man" is too early and is not carried properly throughout the article. The origins section as a whole is very dense and could do with re-working. Many parts could be edited and moved around to alternate sections of the article. The Scrutators should go to the organisation section (as should the Conclave!), Whilst the battle of the Rubicon Straits could be excised entirely. (What does it add?)

 

I find it interesting that you feel they were mentioned to early, when early criticism said that leaving them until the Organization segment was too late. Would it not make sense to explain why they came into being, perhaps a little of their role, and then to expand more fully upon it later? Likewise, the formation of the Conclave would be worth a mention in the beginning as it's going to have a role in shaping who the Iron Eagles become.

 

The Battle for Asterope is a holdover from a very early draft of the article, one which I finally made myself cut even though I hated doing it. On the other hand, the Rubicon Straits are an area of space opposite Cadia and on the other side of the Eye of Terror. That's where the Chapter patrols, since it's so far from the established defenses.

 

Moving on to the Homeworld section - You can't really call the Ramilies a "fortress ship", and the Imperial Navy can't truly complain about its armaments.

 

Originally, they were in possession of something akin to the Phalanx, only smaller. This apparently upset several commentators and I was urged to go with a Ramilies, which doesn't entirely fit with the vision I had for my Chapter. However, I'm trying to work within the universe and utilize the criticism given to me, so I backed off on the scale and went with a known pattern of hull.

 

To my mind, the fortress-ship is more useful for a highly mobile fleet and I'm not trying to eclipse or even equal what a First Founding would possess. The unreliability of warp transit and difficulty in moving a Ramilies does make it seem less than ideal for what the Iron Eagles would be doing, especially since they're opearting in deep space and very, very far from Imperial support. To my mind, a star fortress is intended more for garrison duties that might occasionally require movement, or as a psychological weapon for use against particularly troublesome planets that aren't yielding to other means. A fortress ship would be something more mobile, more able to keep up with the Strike Cruiser and Battle Barges of the Astartes, while providing the means to support their operations.

 

Thoughts?

 

Your Combat Doctrine does pose questions to me, and I would echo the comments someone else made about "friendly fire", which would be an impossibly rare thing for the Astartes. What you seem to be trying to say is that the level of coordination the Exonerators display allows the Marines to operate perilously close to heavy weapons fire, confident in the knowledge that they will be safe. (?)

 

In essence, yes. I may have done so clumsily, but that's the feeling which I was going for.

 

That aspect might be toned down some in the current draft, or at least left as the implicit thing that it would be for most Chapters, because I'm weighing the level of communion that I want to write into the current version. The vox implants are still going to be there, but I might leave them as an available option rather than a constant murmur within their heads.

 

Your organisation section is very dense as well, I think - I'm not sure the section on the dreadnoughts needs to be so long. I would also not that perhaps it would have been better to explicitly state that your Chapter is part of the Praeses in the Origins section.

 

It's an artifact of the past, one which I didn't want to cut for sentimental reasons. Since this is a new draft, it's cut by definition and only coming back if I see good reason for it to do so.

 

It is worth noting why the Chapter Master, coming from the Iron Hands, reverted to a more Codex structure. Why abandon aspects close to the Iron Hands? Each Company competing to strengthen the whole? Each Company recruiting its own initiaties? A council ruling the Chapter?

 

The reason for the central novitiate is that they don't have room or resources to properly train new recruits aboard each Company's Strike Cruiser, while the central vessel provides more options to the veteran sergeants who would be doing the overseeing. It's because of that single change that I toned down some of the inter-Company rivalry that is seen amongst the Iron Hands, though I'm now working on a more appropriate form of competition that might bring some aspects of that back into the article. As well, I think that the Conclave is a necessity that stems from their circumstances, since each Company is represented and has a say in the future of the Chapter, yet they rely upon one another at a basic level because of their central supply and support through the fortress. Unlike the Medusans, they can't just retreat to their giant crawlers and give the metaphorical middle finger to everyone they don't like.

 

Additionally, as the Chapter develops and comes into its own, the Scrutators and Librarians become increasingly important in their work with the Polypsykana and eugenics programs. The power dynamics shift because of that, as those who are party to the secret of their work are initiated and become members of the Inner Circle. Only initiates of high degree are going to make it onto the Conclave after a while, which creates a self-reinforcing belief structure since the people who choose recruits and steer indoctrination will be in line with the power structure's views.

 

Again, you mention "secrecy [...] necessary to their great plan" but I'm lost - why do their plans (whatever they are) require secrecy, especially within the ranks of their closer-than-normal Chapter?

 

The Dark Angels are a secretive Chapter, yes?

 

The Deathwing know more than the rank Brother does. This is a similar level of secrecy and for reasons that aren't all that different. The Iron Eagles are engaged in a secret war of their own, one which they are pursuing by means which would raise eyebrows and possible warfleets should it become known to outsiders. Even though the Brothers are indoctrinated to maintain their unity against outsiders, to commune with one another, there's no reason to risk a leak needlessly. Once a Marine has shown his dedication and capability through experience, once he is more fully able to see the necessity of what they are doing, the Scrutators allow him a taste of the truth.

 

The Apothecary-Chaplain Scrutators are there not only to tend to their physical and spiritual well-being, but to push them towards their pinnacle. Each Astartes becomes better than he could have been on his own, but only as he's ready to take a step. Then, as he grows into himself, he is shown that he also has a hand in ensuring that the Chapter and the Imperium both shed their weakness and become what the Emperor (in the Eagles' view) intended.

 

The "Role of Acceptance" sidebar serves no real purpose to the article and should be cut.

 

Once again, this is a holdover from older material.

 

In the Beliefs section, the Machine Ghosts are not really very well explained (to my mind) and should be made clearer, especially as to who they are imprinted on. Do particularly gifted candidates voluntarily undergo mind-scrubbing to allow these figures to rise again? It's not clear.

 

Ah, now that's definitely a new interpretation.

 

My goal for the gestalt of machine ghosts is not to have a hero live again through a mind-scrubbed Brother, but for those who were too valuable to merely let die to continue to contribute when there are no Dreadnoughts left for them. Most Chapters make use of tutelary engines for the rapid psychodoctrination of their recruits, but the Iron Eagles not only impart encyclopedic knowledge and general lessons, but the actual experience of some of their greatest warriors. In a way, every Brother will have a shared base of memory after enough time spent in the engines because they're all learning from the same teachers. It just so happens that said teachers are impressions within the memory banks beneath the Libris Omnis.

 

The confusion may have arisen when I brought up the use of alterend minds in place of servitors or cogitators. Once a Marine has been patterened into the machine, his physical mind and body are used to create what the Iron Eagles believe are superior servitors. Having Astartes physiology and reaction time, along with a greater than usual degree of latitude, the devices which are created serve as pilots, gunners, and ship's crew. The important part of the shell has already been passed on, so the instincts that have been ground in by centuries of war are turned to other uses.

 

I would also note that the Beliefs section is clearly the best place to discuss their views on Man, their quest for this "new Man" and their views on the superiority of the Astartes. If this theme is so important to the Chapter, I would question why it's not in there. Again, the obsession with the "future" that bookends the article in the first quote and the battle-cry is not really touched upon in the whole article. Why do they care about the future? Do their librarians attempt to divine the future?

 

I would have thought that their obsession with the future was fairly clear in their desire to improve not only themselves but the people who they are defending. However, I'll strive to make that clearer when I get to that part of this writeup and to spread the references around enough to make it more apparent.

 

It's less to do with dvinivation than it is with using their quest for perfection as a means to better, in their view, the Imperium.

 

What steps are taken to enhance the bond between brothers in this Chapter? You seem to desire a Chapter whose individual Marines can always communicate. What consequences does this bond have? What might it do to the initiation rites? There might be a greater focus on the success of the squad rather than the success of the individual. It might lead to difficulties if a Marine dies. You've got some interesting (if contradictory) themes; you simply need to thread them through the article. Consider trying to simplify the Chapter - the focus on the "new man" simply confuses the issue, I think, and should be excised from the Chapter entirely.

 

Why would the New Man be so confusing? It's a simple outgrowth of their intention to create the strongest, most able Marines possible, since that's what the Emperor wanted for them. To their minds, it stands to reason that improving humanity in the process can only be a good thing, especially once they become aware of the Polypsykana.

 

I do think that you've inspired me to modify the Rites of Iron, though. I'm still weighing out just how pervasive I want their communication to be, but I did previously say that I'm planning on keeping the vox implants in place.

 

Thanks for the thought and effort. I'll see if I can be less disappointing when I get done with this draft.

[Apothete]

No suggestions or comments?

 

I'm trying not to go racing off on further development before I see if the current material is worth preserving as it is, or if the Origins section will need another rewrite before I move along. If it'd encourage commentary, the things which I'm most seeking response on are:

 

1. How viable is the New Man and Polypsykana angle, especially given that the Eagles do not have overt Mechanicus support in pursuing their goal?
   
2. Whether or not the Chapter should be older, since I'm using elements and beliefs which are either archaic or possibly considered heretical in the more modern Imperium
   
3. Even though I am abjectly, horribly tied to the idea of bionics and alteration, I am open to using different geneseed and founding Chapter if there's an angle which could be worked more fruitfully. The only Loyalist line I see being compatible with their beliefs and behavior is that of the Imperial Fists, aside from the Iron Hands. Any thoughts?
   
4. Earlier advice suggested using a Ramilies star-fortress but the description of one makes it sound too laborious to move for a fleet-based Chapter. Should I gloss over that fact and leave things as they are or go with something a little unusual, as asked in my last reply?
   
5. Where would the acquisition of non-sanctioned fleet assets be best addressed? Origins? Homeworld?
   
6. Does anyone have any thoughts or suggestions on the new Chapter symbol? I explained some of my reasoning above, but I'm trying to create something which is symbolic of the old alliance between Terra and Mars.
   

 

I figure waiting over a week was enough for a bump. I don't want to drown people in revisions, after all.

Edited April 27, 2010 by Apothete

[Telveryon]

In the wake of the hellish conflict of the Third Black Crusade, the Astartes Praeses stood against the massed might of the Traitors as they streamed forth from the Eye of Terror and sought to pillage and burn the worlds of the Imperium. Amongst the stalwart defenders, the Iron Eagles extracted a bloody toll upon their foes and held their ground, though it cost them nearly everything to do so. At the conclusion of the campaign, little was left save a handful of veterans and the brutalized crew of the star fortress Unyielding Resolve. Those few souls were absorbed by their parent Chapter, their colors and heraldry struck and the stores of wargear placed with the Mechanicus against the day that it might be needed. With time, even their existence became a distant memory, stored in dusty stacks and forgotten by all but the most studious of historians.

You start a bit in medias res (if you'll excuse the pretentiousness). While that's not necessarily bad in and of itself, but the I personally think it suits the descriptive nature of an IA. I'd say that this paragraph would sound better if it had a proper, bog standard IA start. It would sound as eloquent, but it would make for a better read.

 

 

The sorties would have been an unqualified success had they not run afoul of a battle already in progress, the Iron Eagles swooping in to engage the marauders with boarding torpedoes even as the Imperial Navy refused to stand down and continued to fire upon the enemy. Talo had demanded a cordon be placed around the system so that his Marines might fight in the confines of the renegade ships, a risk that the Admiral did not wish to take, with neither side backing down. Disaster struck shortly after Chapter forces had boarded the Inveterate Hatred, a Grand Cruiser of archaic design, when an Imperial Destroyer that had ranged out of its battle line was blown into the engines of the larger ship and caused a catastrophic explosion within its reactors. Fully an entire Company of Astartes were incinerated in the blast, along with several of the picket which had been harassing the foe.

 

In a moment, twenty years of work went up in flames and Talo had seen all that he needed to. Cursing the foolish weakness of those he had sworn to protect, the Chapter Master ordered the retreat from the system rather than declaring open war upon his erstwhile allies. Covering the ponderous movement of the star fortress, the Iron Eagles executed a textbook retreat in all but one regard. As a parting gift for the renegades, he ordered all ships to fire first a salvo of torpedoes, followed by cyclonic munitions. The spread of their fire would allow the Imperial ships to escape desolation if they withdrew as he had first ordered.

Don't know why, but there seems to be a bit too much detail in this battle description. I pretty sure you can shorten this to three or four lines without losing any worthwhile information.

 

The discovery of ancient texts within the Libris would only further harden their hearts and solidify their intent, as the secret knowledge of the Polypsykana - the intent of the Emperor to create a race entirely of psykers - and the Primarch Project spread through the Conclave, adding a secret focus to their already mounting drive to create better men from which to draw their recruits.

This is easily the weakest part of the article. Rediscovered documents should be up there with mysterious origins and lost in the work in the list of IA artifices that say "I can't be bothered to come up with a better idea." Come on Apothete, you're better then this!

 

How viable is the New Man and Polypsykana angle, especially given that the Eagles do not have overt Mechanicus support in pursuing their goal?

The New Man idea comes across decently enough, though I would suggest to make it a longer, more gradual process.

 

The Polypsykana angles come across very clearly, but as I said before, it's very poorly implemented.

 

Whether or not the Chapter should be older, since I'm using elements and beliefs which are either archaic or possibly considered heretical in the more modern Imperium

This might actually be a good idea. You might wish to go Third Founding as marines from that age still had direct contact with the Primachs and thus might be in a better position to come in contact with the Emperor's Polypsykana ideas.

 

Even though I am abjectly, horribly tied to the idea of bionics and alteration, I am open to using different geneseed and founding Chapter if there's an angle which could be worked more fruitfully. The only Loyalist line I see being compatible with their beliefs and behavior is that of the Imperial Fists, aside from the Iron Hands. Any thoughts?

It has been said time and time gain that with enough work any chapter, not matter it's gene-seed, can be molded into anything you want. Sure, it might take more work to explain why a Blood Angels successor is obsessed with bionics that an Iron Hands successor, but it can be done.

 

Earlier advice suggested using a Ramilies star-fortress but the description of one makes it sound too laborious to move for a fleet-based Chapter. Should I gloss over that fact and leave things as they are or go with something a little unusual, as asked in my last reply?

If a something isn't critical, glossing over it might be a good idea, at least that how I usually do it.

 

If that fails, I'd go for something unusual. The Ramillies can't be the only starfort available to the Imperium.

 

Where would the acquisition of non-sanctioned fleet assets be best addressed? Origins? Homeworld?

Both I'd say. You could describe how the Chapter managed to get it's grubby mitts on said fleet assets and in the homeworld section you can describe them in a better detail.

 

Does anyone have any thoughts or suggestions on the new Chapter symbol? I explained some of my reasoning above, but I'm trying to create something which is symbolic of the old alliance between Terra and Mars.

Ummm.... Would a gray Imperial Eagle holding a black cog do?

[Apothete]

You start a bit in medias res (if you'll excuse the pretentiousness). While that's not necessarily bad in and of itself, but the I personally think it suits the descriptive nature of an IA. I'd say that this paragraph would sound better if it had a proper, bog standard IA start. It would sound as eloquent, but it would make for a better read.

 

There's a reason for doing things that way, though I'll certainly consider the possibility of changing the order of introduction if you still feel that way after I explain.

 

Simply, the media res tone of the introduction was written in because I wanted to explore the possibility of a refounding without spending too much time on the Chapter that once existed. That might change somewhat - though I want to keep it tight and limited - because I'm weighing several options on potential alterations to the details of the current Iron Eagle's existence. As is discussed later, one of those potentialities is making both their fallen cousins and their own creation come quite a bit earlier in the timeline, which would necessitate some careful positioning within the opening sentences.

 

Don't know why, but there seems to be a bit too much detail in this battle description. I pretty sure you can shorten this to three or four lines without losing any worthwhile information.

 

The focus isn't meant to be the battle so much as it is the turning point, where Talo and the Iron Eagles finally decide that humanity is too weak to be left to its own devices. I was using the incident as a springboard, but conversations with certain other commentatores in private messages have left me feeling that the overall theme needs more development.

 

The general gist is that through both their own failures and missteps and the obvious inferiority of the bog-standard humans that serve in the Imperial military, the Iron Eagles would come to find themselves believing very strongly that they need to take up the cause of creating a better class of man - both to recruit from and to stand against the multitudinous threats of the cosmos. I am currently exploring possible angles for this approach, one of which is to have them be old enough to have encountered those who predate the Lectio Divinatus and its resulting Imperial Cult, if not to have been directly trained by veterans of a similar age. They might remember a time where science trumped superstition, where the warp was being tamed and explored even as the daemon and corruption were being abhorred.

 

Another angle involves them discovering records buried in secret places aboard the Unyielding Resolve, either of doctrines, experiments, and testaments from the former Iron Eagles or directions to a lost facility which they had once guarded. Either way, exposure to the material broadens their minds even as they debate what to do about it, dragging the process out in the middle of the Grand Conclave while the Chapter continues to draw strength. After a while, they would turn to these means, which bear what seems to be the influence of good, loyal men who serve at the Emperor's behest and begin to reimplement their - and possibly His - works.

 

This is easily the weakest part of the article. Rediscovered documents should be up there with mysterious origins and lost in the work in the list of IA artifices that say "I can't be bothered to come up with a better idea." Come on Apothete, you're better then this!

 

Lost documents aren't inherently bad, if they're hidden for a reason.

 

See above for some further thought on the subject.

 

he New Man idea comes across decently enough, though I would suggest to make it a longer, more gradual process.

 

The Polypsykana angles come across very clearly, but as I said before, it's very poorly implemented.

 

I'm weighing whether the Polyspykana and New Man angles should be blended into a single concept, with the aim of whatever form their obsession eventually takes being to continue research that the Emperor and his chosen scientists had begun.

 

This might actually be a good idea. You might wish to go Third Founding as marines from that age still had direct contact with the Primachs and thus might be in a better position to come in contact with the Emperor's Polypsykana ideas.

 

What if the Iron Eagles original founding was in the Third, with the refounding coming in the Fifth or Sixth?

 

That would give us an original Chapter that would plausibly possess knowledge of the pre-Heresy beliefs of the Astartes and the Emperor, a connection to those events, and then a reason for the refounding to have taken place long enough after the destruction for records to have become more difficult to locate and for the veterans to have burnt out. I'm likely going to go with the suggestion that the original Chapter waged war until they were gone, eaten by the wars rather than going back to their progenitors. That would leave potential for them to have hidden things they considered important on the Resolve, left for future generations to find and act upon, while also positioning the new Praeses to be created after the Second Black Crusade.

 

Unfortunately, aiming for such an early window means that I need to find a reason for the Iron Eagles to have been wiped out, because I really do like the concept of refounding.

 

If a something isn't critical, glossing over it might be a good idea, at least that how I usually do it.

 

If that fails, I'd go for something unusual. The Ramillies can't be the only starfort available to the Imperium.

 

It quite obviously isn't, since the Imperial Fists have the Phalanx, and then there's the Blackstone Fortresses, along with other very large spaceborne structures. What I want for the Eagles is to have something larger than a Battle Barge, more mobile than a Ramilies and its fleet of tender ships, but not overpowered or Mary Sue.

 

Ummm.... Would a gray Imperial Eagle holding a black cog do?

 

Hmmmm.

 

A silver Imperial Eagle over a black cog could work, without being too awful to paint or model. I'm not sure about holding it, but the combined devices might look okay. My only problem with going too heavy on the eagles or aquillas is that I have a lot of Mk 7 torsos with aquila decoration on them.

[Ace Debonair]

Ummm.... Would a gray Imperial Eagle holding a black cog do?

 

Hmmmm.

 

A silver Imperial Eagle over a black cog could work, without being too awful to paint or model. I'm not sure about holding it, but the combined devices might look okay. My only problem with going too heavy on the eagles or aquillas is that I have a lot of Mk 7 torsos with aquila decoration on them.

 

In that case I'd suggest a stylized eagle's wing in silver. You could even make it look like a metal wing by having very precise edges and thin gaps between the 'feathers'. Probably the easiest way to do that would be to paint a roughly wing-shaped block of silver, then paint all the defining lines in using the colour of the shoulder pad.

 

Of course, this might be a terrible idea, so ignore it at your leisure. :P

It's far too early in the day for me to have ideas.

[Apothete]

In that case I'd suggest a stylized eagle's wing in silver. You could even make it look like a metal wing by having very precise edges and thin gaps between the 'feathers'. Probably the easiest way to do that would be to paint a roughly wing-shaped block of silver, then paint all the defining lines in using the colour of the shoulder pad.

 

Of course, this might be a terrible idea, so ignore it at your leisure. :P

It's far too early in the day for me to have ideas.

 

I'm trying to picture this without it turning into the Dark Angels wings in my head, but I think there might be a way to make it work. If it's swept up and to the side rather than being static, with some kind of focal point where the wing would attach... Hmmm.

 

You might be onto something. I'll have to play around with a few sketches and maybe a test painting or three.

[Octavulg]

Think like the Death Strike or Emperor's Children wing.

[Apothete]

Think like the Death Strike or Emperor's Children wing.

 

If it weren't for the fact that the Ravenguard already have an alternate badge which incorporates the design, I'd use a silver skull with the trailing wing done in white. The Emperor's Children wing was what I had already pictured, but then I remembered about the Dark Angels and had to go digging through bits and pictures to see if I was remembering something that wasn't true.

[Octavulg]

Could do a cog wheel with the Imperial eagle silhouetted over it, or with the wing over it.

[Ace Debonair]

Could do a cog wheel with the Imperial eagle silhouetted over it, or with the wing over it.

That'd also be pretty cool. :)

 

Damn, if I could just draw the picture I have in my head. ;) Describing it is such a pain in the neck.

 

The wing I had in mind was rather like the Emperor's Children one, but even more highly stylized and silver. Think... a bit like a Dark Angels one but with the 'feathers' much closer together, longer, and with all the edges forming a neat diagonal line from base to tip, so that the 'feather' at the top is rather longer than the one at the bottom.

 

That sounds like a ridiculous description, but hopefully it conveys the clean, metallic feel that I'm envisioning. Ah well, this is what I get for posting first thing in the morning and again last thing at night. :) My apologies if the above description seems nonsensical or silly.

[Apothete]

I've spent the last little while doodling combinations of wings, skulls, iron halos, cog wheels, and eagle heads. So far, the only swept-wing concept that I've come up with that I think would even remotely look good is a variation on the Ravenwing shoulder I mentioned earlier, only the base of the wing comes down into a cogwheel instead of a skull. That was after an abortive attempt to combine the skull and a wing that's more stylized, like that of the Death Strike.

 

Aside from that, I've managed a few minor themes which are almost acceptable. One is the two-heads of the aquila backed on a cog (one blind, one seeing), another is a cog between a pair of furled wings, and... I just had an idea.

 

It's not terribly easy to explain, but I was just paging through the various heraldries of established Chapters and came across the Angels of Vigilance. Using their symbol as inspiration, I've created something which will probably be a nightmare to paint evenly on a repeated basis, but I like the overall presentation. I'm trying to make the plumes of those wings look more coglike, replacing the center piece with a skull. There are two versions on paper right now, one which stops there and one which adds a pyramid-and-eye symbol of illumination above.

 

Maybe I should stop this and go to bed, because I'm not even sure that last one would make sense to anyone but me.

[Ace Debonair]

I just had an idea.

 

It's not terribly easy to explain, but I was just paging through the various heraldries of established Chapters and came across the Angels of Vigilance. Using their symbol as inspiration, I've created something which will probably be a nightmare to paint evenly on a repeated basis, but I like the overall presentation. I'm trying to make the plumes of those wings look more coglike, replacing the center piece with a skull. There are two versions on paper right now, one which stops there and one which adds a pyramid-and-eye symbol of illumination above.

 

Maybe I should stop this and go to bed, because I'm not even sure that last one would make sense to anyone but me.

 

So long as it does make sense to you, that's fine. It sounds like a pretty neat chapter badge, though.

But I'm sure glad I don't have to paint it. :)

[Telveryon]

The focus isn't meant to be the battle so much as it is the turning point, where Talo and the Iron Eagles finally decide that humanity is too weak to be left to its own devices. I was using the incident as a springboard, but conversations with certain other commentatores in private messages have left me feeling that the overall theme needs more development.

Maybe, but you put so much detail in the description of the battle that that's the last thing passes through a reader's mind. Allow me to exemplify:

 

Their course set, the Chapter watched as the entire engagement - Loyalist and Traitor alike - burned, their hulls rupturing and great gouts of flaming gas ripping into the black void. Every viewscreen aboard an Iron Eagle ship displayed the conflagration, a testament to the folly of trusting to those who had grown soft, who didn't heed their brothers in arms.

This part very well written and it paints a very cool mental picture, the problem is that it add bugger all to the chapter as a whole.

 

Now that I think about it, this isn't an isolated case, it's more of an issue with your writing style as a whole. You're too much of a story teller. Being a story teller is by no means a bad thing, but in the context of writing IAs, which are for all intents and purposes lists of facts, it might more of a disadvantage then an asset.

 

A long time ago I tried to pull of stories such as these, but I found out that I couldn't. They would sound like crap (if you'll excuse the language) and I'd get bogged down in irrelevant details. You on the other hand can pull such stories off yet you don't seem immune to getting bogged down. You know how to paint a very pretty picture, but you tend to lose sight of the greater whole but IAs are all about the bigger picture. More over if you do lose sight of the bigger picture, imagine what happens to the reader.

 

Lost documents aren't inherently bad, if they're hidden for a reason.

Maybe not, but it's still one of the easiest ways of motivating just about anything. Sure, if done properly, it can be quite interesting, and the situation you are trying to build is probably one of the most suited for such an idea. But I still think that there are better ways to pull something like this off.

 

The very first draft of the Golden Defenders used a similar idea to motivate their faithlessness. It was the first idea that got thrown out the window on the second draft and they became all the cooler for it. Now I must ask you, wouldn't it be cooler if you're Iron Angels came to the same conclusion as the Emperor through their own means rather then some hidden documents?

 

I'm weighing whether the Polyspykana and New Man angles should be blended into a single concept, with the aim of whatever form their obsession eventually takes being to continue research that the Emperor and his chosen scientists had begun.

Ummm... Weren't these two concepts the one and the same for the Emperor himself? As far as I recall, his plan was to turn humanity in a race of psykers that could use the warp safely.

 

What if the Iron Eagles original founding was in the Third, with the refounding coming in the Fifth or Sixth?

 

That would give us an original Chapter that would plausibly possess knowledge of the pre-Heresy beliefs of the Astartes and the Emperor, a connection to those events, and then a reason for the refounding to have taken place long enough after the destruction for records to have become more difficult to locate and for the veterans to have burnt out. I'm likely going to go with the suggestion that the original Chapter waged war until they were gone, eaten by the wars rather than going back to their progenitors. That would leave potential for them to have hidden things they considered important on the Resolve, left for future generations to find and act upon, while also positioning the new Praeses to be created after the Second Black Crusade.

You're dead set on the hidden document idea aren't you?

 

Unfortunately, aiming for such an early window means that I need to find a reason for the Iron Eagles to have been wiped out, because I really do like the concept of refounding.

That shouldn't be all that hard, it's no like there is a shortage of ways a chapter can become extinct in the 33rnd millenium.

[Apothete]

So long as it does make sense to you, that's fine. It sounds like a pretty neat chapter badge, though.

But I'm sure glad I don't have to paint it. :)

 

I came up with another three or four before I finally called it a night, none of which seem quite right. There's two or three which I think are going in the right direction but none of them that just scream "Pick me now." The problem seems to be the same one I have with my writing, which is that I just want to cram too much detail in and what I need is something which is right at the perfect level of complexity to convey what I mean.

 

This part very well written and it paints a very cool mental picture, the problem is that it add bugger all to the chapter as a whole.

 

Now that I think about it, this isn't an isolated case, it's more of an issue with your writing style as a whole. You're too much of a story teller. Being a story teller is by no means a bad thing, but in the context of writing IAs, which are for all intents and purposes lists of facts, it might more of a disadvantage then an asset.

 

You're probably right.

 

In the previous drafts, I often got comments that things I'd added weren't necessary to the themes I was trying to evoke. Sometimes those were accompanied by accolades for a cool turn of phrase or interesting idea, but it's definitely a critique that I'm used to hearing. I'm not sure what to do about it, though. This is the only way I really know how to write fiction.

 

More over if you do lose sight of the bigger picture, imagine what happens to the reader.

 

Well, hopefully they're awed by the imagery I'm creating and thus aren't paying attention to the fact that they're drowning...

 

Now I must ask you, wouldn't it be cooler if you're Iron Angels came to the same conclusion as the Emperor through their own means rather then some hidden documents?

 

I agree with you, but I ran into a wall on that front.

 

Remember how up in arms people get about the Soul Drinkers and their sudden turn away from the Imperium at the behest of a single powerful figure's crisis of faith? I'm doing my best to avoid that same pitfall since the Iron Eagles would need to have good reason for breaking from even their cousins' beliefs about the Emperor, as no Chapter I'm aware of is attempting the same thing that they are.

 

Having their beliefs stem from those of a particular veteran in the training cadre would reek of Ex Machina, as would relying on the Mechanicus for justification. Using hidden documents or secret knowledge from the Brothers who bore their name first has the issues which you're bringing up. Sudden apotheosis of belief system brings its own challenges, since it would have to be argued against whatever doctrines and rituals were brought along by those who were training them.

 

Ummm... Weren't these two concepts the one and the same for the Emperor himself? As far as I recall, his plan was to turn humanity in a race of psykers that could use the warp safely.

 

It's possible to do the New Man theme without using the Polyspykana, but not the other way around.

 

The Eagles could decide to recreate humanity as a better, stronger species without the urge to also breed for psykers. However, the intent to increase human control over the warp is going to necessitate either odd experiments, as in Faith and Fire, or a eugenics program of grand scale.

 

You're dead set on the hidden document idea aren't you?

 

Not particularly.

 

I'm just struggling to find a believable turning point, or a reason for them to have been in that frame of mind all along.

 

That shouldn't be all that hard, it's no like there is a shortage of ways a chapter can become extinct in the 33rnd millenium.

 

I'd like it to be something more than just "Chaos did it. New Chapter!"

 

Plus, as you were already pointing out, I'm trying to come up with a way to do it without taking too much space discussing the previous bearers of their sobriquet. This is about the current, active Iron Eagles.

[Octavulg]

You can have a ridiculously overcomplicated chapter badge thanks to modern decal printing. Isn't technology wonderful?

[Walter Payton]

You can have a ridiculously overcomplicated chapter badge thanks to modern decal printing. Isn't technology wonderful?

 

My one for the upcoming Iron Praefacts is a Dragon gripping a winged cog impaled on a sword wielded by the Emperor. I think it works.

 

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Now onto actually offering whatever advice I can on the chapter,

 

The Iron Eagles

 

I have to say that I am not a fan of the new name-it just seems a tad generic, a tad staid. Think about it, how many DIY chapters will be called the Eagles of Iron, Iron Eagles or some such derivation. Then think how many will be called the Exonerators. The reason I like that name is because it is a little bit odd, a little bit different-a bit like Ferrus Mannus's Arctic Lions chapter-I read their IA in the Honouros because I thought, "'Arctic'"? Don't often see that adjective in relation to Marines, I shall spend a minute of me time lookin' at these here fine men."

 

Its the same with these guys. But the name change is your choice, so I will say no more, its up to you.

 

I

n the wake of the hellish conflict of the Third Black Crusade, the Astartes Praeses stood against the massed might of the Traitors as they streamed forth from the Eye of Terror and sought to pillage and burn the worlds of the Imperium.

 

'In the wake of'? Surely the Astartes Praeses were standing against the massed might of the traitor legions during said dastardly invasion, not merely aftwerwards? Maybe try something like, 'As the Legions of Abbadon tore out of the Eye on their Third Black Crusade, the Astartes Praeses stood, ever vigilant, against the massed might of the Traitors as they streamed forth from the Eye of Terror and sought to pillage and burn the worlds of the Imperium.'

 

Or some such?

 

Amongst the stalwart defenders, the Iron Eagles extracted a bloody toll upon their foes and held their ground, though it cost them nearly everything to do so.

 

A little explanation of circumstance might not go amiss here-I for one was left thinking: 'Why did they just keep fighting when they were being ground to nought?'

 

At the conclusion of the campaign, little was left save a handful of veterans and the brutalized crew of the star fortress Unyielding Resolve. Those few souls were absorbed by their parent Chapter, their colors and heraldry struck and the stores of wargear placed with the Mechanicus against the day that it might be needed.

 

The Crimson Fists weren't, and they were reduced to similar circumstances, defining a handful of veterans might help here. After all, a handful with Marines could mean five men, or a depleted company, two completely different things-maybe have something like: 'At the conclusion of the campaign, little was left save three exhausted and brutalised squads of veterans,'

 

More than once, the Iron Eagles would uncover signs of blasphemous taint or overt rebellion amongst those that had been so often ravaged by Chaos. Without mercy or remorse, these worlds were purged with extreme prejudice, whether by cyclonic torpedo or as deployment exercise for the fledgling Marines who were still learning their purpose.

 

How did they get away with this, just serving up nuclear armageddon on a whim? I thought uncaring holocausts were the =][='s perogative, and they tend to quite prickly about other people getting up to it without their permission-even Exterminatus is conducted only with an Inquisitor's permission. Also, why did Dedlok suddenly cast aside his original beliefs so easily? This reeks of Deus Ex Machina.

 

Even as the great stores of information within the sanctuary of the Libris Omnis was being prepared under the supervision of Venn and Kalun

 

'Stores' is a plural, it should be 'were being prepared'.

 

Their course set, the Chapter watched as the entire engagement - Loyalist and Traitor alike - burned, their hulls rupturing and great gouts of flaming gas ripping into the black void.

 

So these guys have spent their formative years running around, killing billions of Imperial Citizens with virus bombs, and now they have assasinated an Admiral of the Navy and destroyed an entire battlegroup. By this point, I was thinking, 'what?' It's a shame because the story is well done, and even a short sentence saying something along the lines of, 'And then they lied to the Inquisition and got away with it,' wouldn't leave me with a whole load of questions and a burst suspension of disbelief bubble.

 

So it was that the Iron Eagles went forth to the stars, taking from the worlds upon which they fought the very best that they could find, to be fed into an increasingly sophisticated eugenic program. Children born from the genetic material of their best, most proven warriors would be left behind each time the Scrutators stopped to gather new blood, forged into great men through the same means that the Emperor created their long-dead liege, Ferrus. Still, this would not be enough, and the Chapter embarked upon an ambitious program of bionic modification within their own ranks, not merely for the sake of replacing what was lost, but to enhance themselves that they might imitate that greatest of men - the Emperor. In His image the Iron Eagles created and, for a time, it was good.

 

Mechanic Space Cybermen-Nazis! Fantastic stuff.

 

In conclusion, it looks and reads good right now, but there are some important things that need adressing, good luck!

[Octavulg]

My one for the upcoming Iron Praefacts is a Dragon gripping a winged cog impaled on a sword wielded by the Emperor. I think it works.

 

It's a little plain. Perhaps something in the background?