IA: Exonerators

[Apothete]

Apothete? Why am I looking at a 2000 word Origins section?

 

I blame society.

 

Second sentence: "replace those in need" - that doesn't mean anything.

 

Poorly phrased, perhaps.

 

What I was intending to convey is that the Old Chapter spent a lot of its time fighting rescue and relief actions where they would take over from or reinforce other Astartes amongst the Praeses, as their specialty lay in being constantly mobile. Of course, as you pointed out, that didn't really come across properly.

 

Maybe I should write another couple hundred words to make it clearer...

 

You should be more explicit about the fact that they're brining the Chapter back again. Honestly, I think you'd be better off having the first Chapter be the Iron Eagles and their replacements be the Exonerators. A little less confusing.

 

Perhaps, and that'd give me a chance to throw Masterson back into the mix for a brief chuckle.

 

I was trying to avoid doing the name-and-heraldry dance unless I had no other ideas, though. The way I wrote it this time around seemed like it'd sidestepped that issue but I can see what you're saying.

 

It feels very odd that their flagship just got mothballed. Equally, it feels weird to tell us about what they will be known for before we do the in-between bit.

 

What else would they do with the ship, since taking it with them into the Eye would be a terrible waste of an incredibly valuable resource. There's also the angle that I started trying to work in, where there are buried indoctrinations in the tutelary engines that would be triggered when the ship was given back to their replacements. That's the bequest I mention later in the article, though I wasn't entirely sure how solid that part would come out.

 

If it's a perpetual warp storm, shouldn't it be "threatens"? If it no longer threatens, how is it perpetual?

 

Maybe it's an erratic warpstorm? You can't trust Chaos, you know.

 

That's sixty-six fewer words. Do that to every paragraph and you'd have twelve hundred words, not two thousand. Not saying you can do it to every paragraph, but right now you have more than you should. You must learn control.

 

You'd think I'd have gotten a little better in two years of working on these guys.

 

Seriously, dude. This is too much for an Origins section. It's a fair bit for an Origins section+Next Section of Unknown Name. You need to pare this down so we focus on what you want to focus on, and skim over the bits that don't matter.

 

That's the biggest problem I have, I think.

 

For me, it's all things I want to focus on and that's even after I cut out elements that either seem too trivial even for my interest, or which feel like they're padding word count (again, even from my perspective), and I start writing until I think all the important bits are there where people can see them. Then I post it here and see where I have holes or portions that make sense to me as the author, but which are disjointed for others because they don't have this overarching Big Picture in their heads like I do.

 

Nydus? I get it! (Also 'the entire cities'?)

 

Hooray, someone did!

 

Thanks for catching the typo at the same time.

 

The "weakness of his resolve to survive" bit doesn't get your point across as well as it might. Something more like "weakness of his placing his survival above victory" might work better. Assuming that's what you're getting at.

 

I was trying to say something complex without delving too deep into words, believe it or not.

 

The Exonerators view all of mankind, even most other Astartes, as not possessing enough backbone. They'd take your description of Lion El'Jonson and apply it to everyone. The only thing that demonstrates the will to persevere and survive against all the myriad horrors of the galaxy is the willingness to do what must be done, which they don't think is something that very many are capable of or even interested in attempting.

 

That first sentence is so cliched it hurts.

 

Yes, well, I did fail of Succinct Eloquence 101.

 

I'll work on it, though.

 

Why would the tutelary engines tell them that/why wouldn't they already know?

 

The Old Chapter predates the New Chapter by a little less than a thousand years, which is plenty of time for things to become garbled and the advancement of Imperial stagnation to continue apace. They're being trained by Astartes from a Chapter that would be third-hand at best on their experience of the Heresy, so the information in the tutelary engines is likely going to be a bit different from what might be passed down through other means. It's a more direct record, tinged by the outlook of the Old Chapter.

 

And how is the last part of that sentence connected to the first?

 

I think that paragraph's going on the choppping block and getting a complete rewrite on the next revision.

 

As it stands, it's a holdover from the last revision that I touched up in a few places but didn't completely re-evaluate like I should have. Chalk it up to laziness and writing late at night, I suppose.

 

And where's the context for this battle?

 

Reading with your prompting, I can see how it could look disjointed from outside my head.

 

The intention is to have the increasing disgust and frustration of the Chapter come to a head, a break point where they begin to lose faith in the Imperium as it stands while still reaching for the dream-view they believe the Emperor held. It's not really all that clear in the way it's currently written.

 

Why are the neophytes increasingly rare?

 

My fault again.

 

Very, very few aspirants make it through to the Scouts even before they become a harsher and even less humanistic force, and the numbers fall even more sharply when Talo and the Conclave are moving towards their eventual decision. I either ought to make that clearer or let it fall back to the wayside in the interest of wordcount.

 

The structure of the last sentence makes it sound like Talo's turned traitor.

 

Allowing two foes to brutalize each other makes one a traitor?

 

Even if it didn't, there are definitely those in the Imperium who would label the Exonerators as traitors, monsters, and worse. They're deliberately encouraging the harsh conditions under which they believe the best aspirants will rise, practicing a variety of eugenic selection methods that don't always have a whole lot of moral footing to stand on, in possession of naval assets aside from their fortress-monastery that would raise eyebrows, and either allowing or facilitating the deaths of Imperial military personell.

 

They do it in the belief that they're serving the Emperor, but that doesn't mean anyone else will see it that way.

 

'Total loss' feels colloquial.

 

The second message feels weirdly specific for so large a collection of books. I'd speak more in generalities than in specifics.

 

I've been struggling with that for a while.

 

It'll go back on the block when I hit the next revision.

 

Why hadn't they used the engines before?

 

Also, since secrecy is the enemy, they publicly explain themselves...right?

 

Wow, now there's a shot in the foot I wasn't expecting. Guess that's going to need to be tinkered with as well.

 

As far as the tutelary engines go, I'm trying to find a way to work them into the timeline of the origins section without ballooning the word count even worse. The basic idea is that the surface teachings are all there but more important information is buried and locked in a way that prevents anyone not of the specific geneline the Old Chapter and New Chapter share from retrieving it, which I believe I mentioned is part of the reason for their request that the ship be left for a refounding.

 

Again, abrupt segue.

 

Hey, if I don't keep you on your toes, who will?

[Octavulg]

I blame society.

 

You can't help the context of your upbringing.

 

Of course, neither can I. Shorten your Origins section, or it shall go hard with you.

 

That's a British colloquialism, not an innuendo. FYI.

 

What I was intending to convey is that the Old Chapter spent a lot of its time fighting rescue and relief actions where they would take over from or reinforce other Astartes amongst the Praeses, as their specialty lay in being constantly mobile. Of course, as you pointed out, that didn't really come across properly.

 

Not even a little...

 

Maybe I should write another couple hundred words to make it clearer...

 

Nobody's asking that, now...

 

I was trying to avoid doing the name-and-heraldry dance unless I had no other ideas, though. The way I wrote it this time around seemed like it'd sidestepped that issue but I can see what you're saying.

 

The name and heraldry dance is but a few brief steps, and everyone can recognize it. Don't reinvent the wheel.

 

Maybe it's an erratic warpstorm? You can't trust Chaos, you know.

 

Or Liber authors, evidently. ;)

 

You'd think I'd have gotten a little better in two years of working on these guys.

 

Well, it's not 3000 words...

 

Are you sure you can't work from outlines?

 

That's the biggest problem I have, I think.

 

For me, it's all things I want to focus on and that's even after I cut out elements that either seem too trivial even for my interest, or which feel like they're padding word count (again, even from my perspective), and I start writing until I think all the important bits are there where people can see them. Then I post it here and see where I have holes or portions that make sense to me as the author, but which are disjointed for others because they don't have this overarching Big Picture in their heads like I do.

 

Can you write down the big picture in point form for me, then? I might be able to help you cut it down into a smaller picture.

 

The Exonerators view all of mankind, even most other Astartes, as not possessing enough backbone. They'd take your description of Lion El'Jonson and apply it to everyone. The only thing that demonstrates the will to persevere and survive against all the myriad horrors of the galaxy is the willingness to do what must be done, which they don't think is something that very many are capable of or even interested in attempting.

 

'Every man puts his personal survival above the survival of mankind and what must be done. It is humanity's greatest weakness.'

 

The Old Chapter predates the New Chapter by a little less than a thousand years, which is plenty of time for things to become garbled and the advancement of Imperial stagnation to continue apace. They're being trained by Astartes from a Chapter that would be third-hand at best on their experience of the Heresy, so the information in the tutelary engines is likely going to be a bit different from what might be passed down through other means. It's a more direct record, tinged by the outlook of the Old Chapter.

 

More "why wouldn't they have used them already", then...

 

The intention is to have the increasing disgust and frustration of the Chapter come to a head, a break point where they begin to lose faith in the Imperium as it stands while still reaching for the dream-view they believe the Emperor held. It's not really all that clear in the way it's currently written.

 

Why do they need to break with the Imperium at all?

 

You could just keep it looming on the horizon.

 

Allowing two foes to brutalize each other makes one a traitor?

 

'The xenos and the daemons were welcome to one another in Talo's mind.'

 

If you read it right (well, wrong, actually :P), it looks like you're implying the xenos and demons were in his head.

 

Hey, if I don't keep you on your toes, who will?

 

The only person dashing and handsome enough.

 

Me.

 

And Batman, of course.

[Apothete]

That's a British colloquialism, not an innuendo. FYI.

 

It's a fair cop.

 

Nobody's asking that, now...

 

Aren't they?

 

Anyone?

 

...please?

 

The name and heraldry dance is but a few brief steps, and everyone can recognize it. Don't reinvent the wheel.

 

You haven't heard me out yet.

 

What the wheel really lacks, what'll help sell it anew, is corners.

 

Are you sure you can't work from outlines?

 

I tried again right before this last revision.

 

It... didn't go well.

 

Can you write down the big picture in point form for me, then? I might be able to help you cut it down into a smaller picture.

 

So you want me to write you an outline, then?

 

Nice try, Batman.

 

More "why wouldn't they have used them already", then...

 

What I'd been planning on working into the article at some point, though sticking it later seems increasingly like a Bad Plan, was something about information not being immediately available and the Chapter rediscovering it. Given your critique, I'm going to go back and see if I can write a better intro with the information becoming available sooner. Now to figure out how Talo and his crew react to it...

 

Why do they need to break with the Imperium at all?

 

You could just keep it looming on the horizon.

 

From their standpoint, they haven't broken with anyone. The Chapter's just doing what it has to do to ensure both its future and that of the rest of the Imperium. Nothing they do is treason or even questionable.

 

The break would be from the outside view and so it was included since IAs are aguably impartial.

 

If you read it right (well, wrong, actually ;)), it looks like you're implying the xenos and demons were in his head.

 

Look, I know that Chapter Masters have to possess confidence but Talo doesn't have room in his helmet for the daemons and the xenos.

 

They'll have to take turns.

 

The only person dashing and handsome enough.

 

It's nice of you to notice.

[Octavulg]

So you want me to write you an outline, then?

 

Nice try, Batman.

 

So my bat-sneakiness didn't work, then. Drat.

 

More seriously, can you give me the highly condensed version of the story? As in highly, highly condensed. As in as condensed as you can. It can be in paragraphs, it just can't be long. ;)

[Apothete]

So my bat-sneakiness didn't work, then. Drat.

 

More seriously, can you give me the highly condensed version of the story? As in highly, highly condensed. As in as condensed as you can. It can be in paragraphs, it just can't be long. ;)

 

Right, so Campbell's Condensed Chapter...

 

The Old Chapter wages a long war of attrition in support of the Praeses and other defense forces around the Eye, begins to form some of the core philosophy but is losing numbers and not able to replenish themselves without abandoning their posting. Staring into annihilation, they bequeath the Resolve and most of their armory on the understanding that their sacrifice will be repaid in a refounding at some future time. Everyone remaining goes on a crusade, disappears into the Eye, and the Old Chapter ceases to exist.

 

Two Foundings later, the Praeses are again in need of more forces and the bequest is fulfilled. Using Iron Hands geneseed and a successor cadre, the Resolve is repopulated and brought back online. Talo takes control and teaches the aspirants his ways, supplemented by some of the unfolding hidden information from his predecessors. Decades and/or centuries pass with Talo still at the helm, gradual change in the ranks and increase in New Chapter officers sees his council and advisors more and more in line with the extremism. Lots of evidence mounds up of incompetence, weakness, cowardice, or other failings in Imperial citizens, servants, military, and bureaucracy. The combination of evidence and dogma leads the Conclave and Talo to take harsher steps, begin the eugenics program, and dabble in the verge of traitorous behavior.

 

Emboldened by their successes and knowing what happened to Old Chapter, they immediately step up the eugenics and purposely arrange matters so that Imperial aid is less likely to occur in their region of space. Harsh conditions make for better candidates, so they will cleanse overt threats - xenos, Chaos, and anyone who might give them away that can be gotten rid of. The seeking of perfection brings about three distinct efforts that eventually merge as much as possible - physical/bodily (eugenics, selection process, bionics), purity (mind, motives, dedication), and esoteric (warpcraft, as practised by the Emperor). Scrutators (Apothecary/Chaplain) oversee all elements of the Chapter's life, along with Iron Fathers (rename?), and a doctrine of specific augmentation begins with emphasis on communication, unity, sacrifice, and symbolism of the above. The left hand is replaced as homage to Ferrus, targeter interface added, vox added, and deep indoctrination is followed by symbolic and highly painful death/resurrection during the initiation, bringing the Exonerator a first-hand understanding of what he does and what he faces.

 

Without fear of death or pain, knowing the constact contact of his Brothers, one of the New Chapter can face anything and stand his ground. They are the best Marines the Scrutators and Iron Fathers can devise, each generation helping to create the next by way of gene therapy, surrogate children, and other means. The side effect of chasing perfection is that they are making mankind stronger as well, more able to survive in a hostile and uncaring universe.

 

 

...and that's about as simple as I can make it.

[Octavulg]

Good. If it was much longer, you'd have had far too much. You may still, of course, but there's hope.

[Apothete]

Good. If it was much longer, you'd have had far too much. You may still, of course, but there's hope.

 

Hey, I cut the polypsykana angle out and made it barely even a whisper.

[Octavulg]

The Old Chapter wages a long war of attrition in support of the Praeses and other defense forces around the Eye, begins to form some of the core philosophy but is losing numbers and not able to replenish themselves without abandoning their posting. Staring into annihilation, they bequeath the Resolve and most of their armory on the understanding that their sacrifice will be repaid in a refounding at some future time. Everyone remaining goes on a crusade, disappears into the Eye, and the Old Chapter ceases to exist.

 

Thing is, none of this is necessary. The Exonerators don't need the Old Exonerators in order to come up with the quirks that define them. One chapter puppeting another from beyond the grave is hella cool, mind, but your IAs don't have room for that many ideas.

 

By bringing in the old Chapter, you confuse things. You'd be far better off with just the new Chapter and their travails. Save the idea for another Chapter - and then milk it to death in that case.

 

You can have simple ideas that are executed complicatedly, or you can have complicated ideas executed simply. You can't have complicated ideas executed complicatedly.

 

A Chapter under the control of a malevolent force is always fun. But it simply makes things too busy. Too many answers end up leading back there - and there's sufficient interesting ideas without this.

 

Two Foundings later, the Praeses are again in need of more forces and the bequest is fulfilled. Using Iron Hands geneseed and a successor cadre, the Resolve is repopulated and brought back online. Talo takes control and teaches the aspirants his ways, supplemented by some of the unfolding hidden information from his predecessors. Decades and/or centuries pass with Talo still at the helm, gradual change in the ranks and increase in New Chapter officers sees his council and advisors more and more in line with the extremism. Lots of evidence mounds up of incompetence, weakness, cowardice, or other failings in Imperial citizens, servants, military, and bureaucracy. The combination of evidence and dogma leads the Conclave and Talo to take harsher steps, begin the eugenics program, and dabble in the verge of traitorous behavior.

 

Makes sense. The Iron Hands blaming others for weakness is a nice twist.

 

Emboldened by their successes and knowing what happened to Old Chapter, they immediately step up the eugenics and purposely arrange matters so that Imperial aid is less likely to occur in their region of space. Harsh conditions make for better candidates, so they will cleanse overt threats - xenos, Chaos, and anyone who might give them away that can be gotten rid of. The seeking of perfection brings about three distinct efforts that eventually merge as much as possible - physical/bodily (eugenics, selection process, bionics), purity (mind, motives, dedication), and esoteric (warpcraft, as practised by the Emperor). Scrutators (Apothecary/Chaplain) oversee all elements of the Chapter's life, along with Iron Fathers (rename?), and a doctrine of specific augmentation begins with emphasis on communication, unity, sacrifice, and symbolism of the above. The left hand is replaced as homage to Ferrus, targeter interface added, vox added, and deep indoctrination is followed by symbolic and highly painful death/resurrection during the initiation, bringing the Exonerator a first-hand understanding of what he does and what he faces.

 

OK.

 

Without fear of death or pain, knowing the constact contact of his Brothers, one of the New Chapter can face anything and stand his ground. They are the best Marines the Scrutators and Iron Fathers can devise, each generation helping to create the next by way of gene therapy, surrogate children, and other means. The side effect of chasing perfection is that they are making mankind stronger as well, more able to survive in a hostile and uncaring universe.

 

OK.

 

* * *

 

I think, if you were careful, you could present the above three paragraphs and some of the appropriate background details in an IA inside a reasonable word count. It's not actually that complicated once you pare it down.

 

The secret is to keep it simple. Getting rid of the old Chapter would help immensely.

Edited January 3, 2011 by Octavulg

[Telveryon]

I disagree with Octavulg on the first point, while the Old Exonerators idea eats up quite a bit of space it's far too cool an idea, in my opinion, to drop. What can be done is to gloss over it. What you have in the compressed version is perfect, just reword it to sound better and you're done. And other good thing about this idea is that it can be used as either a starting point or an enforcement for the whole idea that the Humanity is too weak, the new chapter might chalk up the demise of the old one to it. (If you're going to use this concept, I'd recommend you stick it in the Beliefs section)

 

As for the rest, all of those are very solid ideas. If you expand every phrase in the summery to three of four in the article you would have something rather awesome on your hands.

 

Lots of evidence mounds up of incompetence, weakness, cowardice, or other failings in Imperial citizens, servants, military, and bureaucracy.

But take great care with this part, this is where you usually careen out of control with the word count. I'd suggest you just mention who was involved and the aftermath, what actually happened should be left to the read's imagination.

Edited January 3, 2011 by Telveryon

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

I disagree with Octavulg on the first point

 

And the world cried as Telveryon was bat-slapped.

 

Wait, what?

 

You can have simple ideas that are executed complicatedly, or you can have complicated ideas executed simply. You can't have complicated ideas executed complicatedly.

 

I am mildly confuzzled by this small piece of word-wizardry. I get what you mean but the way you've written it makes my eyes bleed.

 

Having learned of the goal of the Great Crusade and the Emperor's intention for man to become the secular, proper masters of the warp from the great tutelary engines deep within the fortress-ship, the Brother-Librarians were no strangers to employing their otherworldly talents in the prosecution of war.

 

I may have missed a bit in my half-skimming over the article thus far but this seemed to pop out of nowhere and it's not something that is commonly parlayed in DIY's or even GW IA's, so far as I am aware (and that isn't too far).

 

If I've missed something then forgive me, I just got in from work and felt obligated to post after my earlier comment on the subject of your awesomeness.

 

 

The one thing I've noticed is that it's very, well, wordy. That may seem a self-defeating statement given the nature of an IA article, though it's just the feeling I get. While I can't point to any one sentence where the wording is wrong or in any way superfluous, it still feels like you're cramming far too much into what can be explained more succinctly.

 

And I only read what was in the first post on the first page and my word, that's a long Origins section.

 

I'm not one of the best wordsmiths around or the most proficient in grammar and structure, I work off how things 'feel'. Is this a fallacious or illogical approach? Maybe, but my feeling seems to coincide with what Octavulg said earlier.

 

Thing is, none of this is necessary. The Exonerators don't need the Old Exonerators in order to come up with the quirks that define them. One chapter puppeting another from beyond the grave is hella cool, mind, but your IAs don't have room for that many ideas.

 

This too.

 

That said, I've been working on my Corsairs Serpentis since almost day zero of my membership on this forum, on and off anyway, the Blazing Sons probably only half of that time. This isn't easy, but you have something great here. It'd be a crying shame to have all this (relatively consistent) work go to waste just because you couldn't cut it down any more than you have.

 

So in summation, I agree with Octavulg.

 

Lord, that could have saved you a lot of reading if I'd just said that earlier.

[NightrawenII]

Staring into annihilation, they bequeath the Resolve and most of their armory on the understanding that their sacrifice will be repaid in a refounding at some future time. Everyone remaining goes on a crusade, disappears into the Eye, and the Old Chapter ceases to exist.

 

Two Foundings later, the Praeses are again in need of more forces and the bequest is fulfilled. Using Iron Hands geneseed and a successor cadre, the Resolve is repopulated and brought back online.

I find this odd. Why would the Resolve and probably their equiment just laying here wastefully for two Foundings? It's not like there is stamp "Don't touch. We will be back around lunchtime." or something.

 

The left hand is replaced as homage to Ferrus, targeter interface added, vox added, and deep indoctrination is followed by symbolic and highly painful death/resurrection during the initiation, bringing the Exonerator a first-hand understanding of what he does and what he faces.

Pun intended? :D :tu:

 

I agree with Telveryon, the old Chapter puppeting the new Chapter from the netherworld is really cool, but Octavulg is right too. There is not enough place to flesh out these two themes properly.

Edited January 3, 2011 by NightrawenII

[Apothete]

Thing is, none of this is necessary. The Exonerators don't need the Old Exonerators in order to come up with the quirks that define them. One chapter puppeting another from beyond the grave is hella cool, mind, but your IAs don't have room for that many ideas.

 

By bringing in the old Chapter, you confuse things. You'd be far better off with just the new Chapter and their travails. Save the idea for another Chapter - and then milk it to death in that case.

 

I suppose that's another problem I have to contend with, and it's one reason I expanded out to three projects instead of just one. There's just too many ideas going in my head at any given time and sometimes it's hard to force it all down and concentrate on just a handful.

 

That being said, I think there might be a way to make you and Telveryon both be right and avert the bat-slap.

 

Makes sense. The Iron Hands blaming others for weakness is a nice twist.

 

Well, it also makes a kind of logical sense if you extend their thinking to the process by which Marines are created.

 

"We're not good enough. We need to be better. What's standing in our way? Our bodies! Work harder, implant bionics, find harsher and harsher challenges to test ourselves... Still not good enough! What's missing? Wait, the aspirants... They come from these Imperial worlds we have to keep protecting. They must be weak. We can make ourselves stronger if we make them stronger."

 

The secret is to keep it simple. Getting rid of the old Chapter would help immensely.

 

I really don't want to.

 

The Old Chapter angle was one of my favorite aspects of this, something I was far less willing to ditch than I was the polypsykana motivation being part of the eugenics program. I understand what you're saying about overcomplicating things but it kind of feels like I'm gutting the vision I had for them if I pull it now, since the rise from extinction angle is something I've been trying to work since the second version of the Chapter.

 

I'll let it sit for today and see how I feel afterwards.

 

But take great care with this part, this is where you usually careen out of control with the word count. I'd suggest you just mention who was involved and the aftermath, what actually happened should be left to the read's imagination.

 

The problem is balance.

 

Say too much and people get bored or think it's too complicated. Say too little and there's not enough hook to draw people in or it's deemed unimportant enough to be included.

 

If I've missed something then forgive me, I just got in from work and felt obligated to post after my earlier comment on the subject of your awesomeness.

 

My radiance often has that effect on people. They find themselves somewhat dazed.

 

What you spotted is an artifact of ideas I've been trying to salvage within the Chapter but which, I think, I might cut completely and save for another project another time. Or, if I cut the Old Chapter angle, I might bring this back to the forefront and expand it somewhat as a part of the eugenics program.

 

I'm not one of the best wordsmiths around or the most proficient in grammar and structure, I work off how things 'feel'. Is this a fallacious or illogical approach? Maybe, but my feeling seems to coincide with what Octavulg said earlier.

 

I'm a wordy guy, on and offline.

 

You're hardly the first person to feel that I spend too long saying things that others would have expressed more simply.

 

That said, I've been working on my Corsairs Serpentis since almost day zero of my membership on this forum, on and off anyway, the Blazing Sons probably only half of that time. This isn't easy, but you have something great here. It'd be a crying shame to have all this (relatively consistent) work go to waste just because you couldn't cut it down any more than you have.

 

I know the feeling.

 

The Exonerators first came to the forum about a month after I joined and I've been tinkering with them ever since. I've also been creating, discarding, modifying, and completely rewriting ideas I've had for them the entire time, to a degree that I'm sure I've forgotten elements that I meant to save for other works by now.

 

I find this odd. Why would the Resolve and probably their equiment just laying here wastefully for two Foundings? It's not like there is stamp "Don't touch. We will be back around lunchtime." or something.

 

Well, how do you know there's no stamp? Maybe the Mechanicus has an internal rule that you have to sit out two turns, do not pass go, before you can recreate a Chapter that willingly sacrificed itself.

[Heru]

Nydus? I get it! (Also 'the entire cities'?)

 

Hooray, someone did!

I got it too as soon as you followed it up with "canals". :lol:

 

 

I see allot of mentions of word count, and ideas taking up space. This is what I see as a big failing for DIY creation in the Liber. The forum has become a place where writing IAs is primary and creating DIYs is secondary. Sacrificing good ideas for word count, is just disgraceful. We need more article formats, damn it!

 

Now that said, if needs must I would spread bits like the Scrutators and eugenics into other sections (Geneseed, Beliefs, Organization etc) or even sidebars. Origins is where the DIY came from, and the other sections are who they are now.

[Apothete]

I got it too as soon as you followed it up with "canals". :lol:

 

It wasn't terribly subtle, I thought. People still glossed over it.

 

I see allot of mentions of word count, and ideas taking up space. This is what I see as a big failing for DIY creation in the Liber. The forum has become a place where writing IAs is primary and creating DIYs is secondary. Sacrificing good ideas for word count, is just disgraceful. We need more article formats, damn it!

 

I don't think anyone would want to read the complete, unpolished bolus of information I could spit out if I were to write about the Exonerators and cram every idea I had about them into the text. Having something like the IA format to pare down inspiration can be handy, even if you're right that it's also more restrictive. That's not always a bad thing.

 

Left to my own devices, I'm sure I could crank out something in the tens of thousands of words about them.

 

Now that said, if needs must I would spread bits like the Scrutators and eugenics into other sections (Geneseed, Beliefs, Organization etc) or even sidebars. Origins is where the DIY came from, and the other sections are who they are now.

 

I've always struggled a little bit with this idea, actually.

 

If the differences are a part of how the Chapter became the way it is, then it seems they ought to be mentioned in the Origins section. I tried writing it with a lot of the material moved to other headers and caught flak for doing so, because I was introducing concepts far after the point that others seemed to think they'd have become relevant. So I move the first mentions of them back to Origins and now it's too bloated.

 

Some would suggest that means I'm trying to juggle too many concepts at once.

Edited January 3, 2011 by Apothete

[Captain Juan Juarez]

Their remit would not allow for reliance upon a single world, and thus the enormous, pre-Heresy warship known as the Unyielding Resolve became their fortress monastery. Centuries of warfare and a dearth of recruitment saw the Chapter whittled away, broken and yet unbowed as they snarled defiance at the forces arrayed against them. The remaining Brothers swore to a crusade of cleansing, forging into the heart of the Eye aboard the Strike Cruiser Heart of Iron, with their colors and heraldry struck and the stores of wargear placed with the Mechanicus against the day that it would be needed.

 

- Kind of an abrupt shift in history; "Hey, we have this cool ship.." to "Argh! We're almost dead...".

 

The Exonerators brought the vengeance of a righteous Imperium wherever they went..

 

- Even as a fledgling Chapter?

 

At the grinding stalemate of Vichy II, the Chapter scuttled a greenskin fleet and drove their crippled ships into decaying orbits around the gas giant that would see them burn to cinders..

 

- I've never heard of a small Greenskin fleet; in fact I think anything barring a Sector Battlefleet might be outnumbered, but that's only my opinion.

 

Calling together the Captains and inviting the most senior of his advisors, Talo flew into a rage at the retreat they had been forced to choose.

 

- Why the rage?

 

Thus were the Scrutators born.

 

- I sense a sidebar in the offing.

 

... that the hand of the Emperor was upon them...

 

- So say fanatics everywhere.

 

So it was that they went forth, taking from the worlds upon which they fought the very best that they could find, to be fed into an increasingly sophisticated eugenic program.

 

- I do so love this idea.

[Ace Debonair]

I don't think anyone would want to read the complete, unpolished bolus of information I could spit out if I were to write about the Exonerators and cram every idea I had about them into the text. Having something like the IA format to pare down inspiration can be handy, even if you're right that it's also more restrictive. That's not always a bad thing.

 

Left to my own devices, I'm sure I could crank out something in the tens of thousands of words about them.

 

I don't know. That could be pretty neat, actually.

 

Then you could summarize that and have yourself an IA, perhaps? :D

Now that said, if needs must I would spread bits like the Scrutators and eugenics into other sections (Geneseed, Beliefs, Organization etc) or even sidebars. Origins is where the DIY came from, and the other sections are who they are now.

 

I've always struggled a little bit with this idea, actually.

 

If the differences are a part of how the Chapter became the way it is, then it seems they ought to be mentioned in the Origins section. I tried writing it with a lot of the material moved to other headers and caught flak for doing so, because I was introducing concepts far after the point that others seemed to think they'd have become relevant. So I move the first mentions of them back to Origins and now it's too bloated.

 

Some would suggest that means I'm trying to juggle too many concepts at once.

The way I dealt with this in my Rift Lords was to devise a key point in their early history, divide the origins section into two parts, and put them either side of the big event.

 

In the case of the Rift Lords, this key event was discovering the Shroud Stars. In the case of the Exonerators, this could be the point where they finally decide everyone else is weak and pitiful and start the eugenics program... although that will probably still require a bit of re-writing. :)

 

EDIT: In short, I have nothing much sensible to add, so I'll throw in some random ideas. :lol:

Edited January 3, 2011 by Ace Debonair

[Octavulg]

Apothete:

 

I suppose that's another problem I have to contend with, and it's one reason I expanded out to three projects instead of just one. There's just too many ideas going in my head at any given time and sometimes it's hard to force it all down and concentrate on just a handful.

 

That being said, I think there might be a way to make you and Telveryon both be right and avert the bat-slap.

 

 

Be careful not to overreach, my son. :)

 

I really don't want to.

 

The Old Chapter angle was one of my favorite aspects of this, something I was far less willing to ditch than I was the polypsykana motivation being part of the eugenics program. I understand what you're saying about overcomplicating things but it kind of feels like I'm gutting the vision I had for them if I pull it now, since the rise from extinction angle is something I've been trying to work since the second version of the Chapter.

 

I'll let it sit for today and see how I feel afterwards.

 

I remember back when I was very young, and not so handsome as I am today (though I was still radiantly handsome, of course).

 

A wise man told me that my Ice Lords would be better off without the array of tunnels beneath the planet, filled with ravening creatures. This idea had, of course, been pared down from a grand over-arching conspiracy involving Lion'El Jonson, Leman Russ, and some weird machine beneath the planet.

 

I was suspicious, but I tried it. And lo, it was better. Much better, in fact. The simpler you make things, the more focus there is for what you're most concerned about.

 

The idea with the previous Chapter could be made to work with what you have here, but it also could work just fine on its own. Better, even, since you'd have more space to explore it properly.

Edited January 3, 2011 by Octavulg

[Ace Debonair]

I remember back when I was very young, and not so handsome as I am today (though I was still radiantly handsome, of course).

 

A wise man told me that my Ice Lords would be better off without the array of tunnels beneath the planet, filled with ravening creatures. This idea had, of course, been pared down from a grand over-arching conspiracy involving Lion'El Jonson, Leman Russ, and some weird machine beneath the planet.

 

I was suspicious, but I tried it. And lo, it was better. Much better, in fact. The simpler you make things, the more focus there is for what you're most concerned about.

 

The idea with the previous Chapter could be made to work with what you have here, but it also could work just fine on its own. Better, even, since you'd have more space to explore it properly.

 

Is this the part where we ask who that wise man was? ;)

[Captain Juan Juarez]

I remember back when I was very young, and not so handsome as I am today (though I was still radiantly handsome, of course).

 

It's at times like these I worry for his sanity.

[Octavulg]

Is this the part where we ask who that wise man was? laugh.gif

 

I think it was me, actually. :)

 

Though I only remembered that halfway through the anecdote. And plenty of others had been suggesting I pare that whole angle down in any case.

 

Perhaps it was the spirit of the Liber.

[Commissar Molotov]

Perhaps it was the spirit of the Liber.

 

Heh.

 

In this case, I would be inclined to agree with Octavulg. There are many good ideas in your Chapter - perhaps too many.

 

I would, however, just interject to say that I particularly like the paragraph in your origins section detailing the initial campaigns of the reborn Exonerators. It works very, very well indeed.

[Apothete]

Kind of an abrupt shift in history; "Hey, we have this cool ship.." to "Argh! We're almost dead...".

 

Shush, you.

 

Stop agreeing with him or the next post will be about how he's so handsome that he makes other look better just by being near them.

 

More seriously, the problem with that portion of the introduction is twofold. The first is - as noted by several now - the predecessor Chapter concept complicates things enough that in order to give it due attention, I'd probably have to pump the wordcount even higher. As much as it galls me to consider it, I might have to cut that angle.

 

Even as a fledgling Chapter?

 

Why not?

 

They're under the command of battle-hardened veterans who were exemplary enough to earn the honor of commanding a new Chapter, and even Scouts are more than a match for many foes that they would face. They're not as good as they'll grow to be, but that doesn't mean that they can't have success in the early days of their existence.

 

I've never heard of a small Greenskin fleet; in fact I think anything barring a Sector Battlefleet might be outnumbered, but that's only my opinion.

 

It was a cooperative action, but the intercession of the Exonerators was the tipping point in the conflict. That's why I make mention of Imperial Naval forces and their wound-licking at the end of that sentence.

 

Why the rage?

 

Imagine, if you will, that you're a decendent of Ferrus Manus and the legitimate successor of a Chapter that gave every single life in the pursuit of defending the Imperium. You come from a warrior tradition steeped not only in the pride and exemplary service of the Astartes, but a nearly neurotic search for perfection, strength, and resilience. The men serving under you are losing their lives not because of their own failings, though those do exist, but more because others can't be trusted to do as they must and stand against the darkness.

 

How would you feel?

 

I sense a sidebar in the offing.

 

It'd be the third time they made it into one.

 

If I do a sidebar about them, maybe they won't be cut and folded back into the article this time.

 

So say fanatics everywhere

 

"So say we all!"

 

I do so love this idea.

 

Self-perfecting cybernazi supermen with a god complex? Yeah, me too.

 

Then you could summarize that and have yourself an IA, perhaps?

 

The reverse-outline?

 

The inline, perhaps?

 

The way I dealt with this in my Rift Lords was to devise a key point in their early history, divide the origins section into two parts, and put them either side of the big event.

 

One of the current pitfalls is that the Chapter as it stands does fall on two sides, but I have two major events, making it four sides. I think...

 

Basically, the defining moments in their history are the fall, bequest, and rebirth of the Chapter and then the moment when Talo and the Conclave decide to do whatever is necessary to improve the Imperium, and oh-so-coincidentally, their pool of recruits. I realize that having four viewpoints is probably something akin to drinking quad espresso.

 

Be careful not to overreach, my son.

 

Don't worry. Terry Gilliam animated my arms.

 

I was suspicious, but I tried it. And lo, it was better. Much better, in fact. The simpler you make things, the more focus there is for what you're most concerned about.

 

See, the lesson I take from that story is that your article got better because you cut down the influence of Lion El'Jonson.

 

In this case, I would be inclined to agree with Octavulg. There are many good ideas in your Chapter - perhaps too many.

 

I would, however, just interject to say that I particularly like the paragraph in your origins section detailing the initial campaigns of the reborn Exonerators. It works very, very well indeed.

 

I guess I'll have to start a fourth DIY besides the joke Chapter I've been sitting on for a year...

[Captain Juan Juarez]

Kind of an abrupt shift in history; "Hey, we have this cool ship.." to "Argh! We're almost dead...".

 

Shush, you.

 

Stop agreeing with him or the next post will be about how he's so handsome that he makes other look better just by being near them.

 

More seriously, the problem with that portion of the introduction is twofold. The first is - as noted by several now - the predecessor Chapter concept complicates things enough that in order to give it due attention, I'd probably have to pump the wordcount even higher. As much as it galls me to consider it, I might have to cut that angle.

 

- Damn the Word Count full speed ahead!

Or less succinctly; I'd say be a little looser with the word count, because I'm all for following guidelines but at the end of this article I want to know the Exonerators.

 

 

Even as a fledgling Chapter?

 

Why not?

 

They're under the command of battle-hardened veterans who were exemplary enough to earn the honor of commanding a new Chapter, and even Scouts are more than a match for many foes that they would face. They're not as good as they'll grow to be, but that doesn't mean that they can't have success in the early days of their existence.

 

- In my mind a fledgling Chapter wouldn't have the resources or manpower to wage war in that manner, but thats a personal interpretation.

 

I've never heard of a small Greenskin fleet; in fact I think anything barring a Sector Battlefleet might be outnumbered, but that's only my opinion.

 

It was a cooperative action, but the intercession of the Exonerators was the tipping point in the conflict. That's why I make mention of Imperial Naval forces and their wound-licking at the end of that sentence.

 

- I know it's the morning after the night before, but I still don't agree; you make mention of the Imperial Navy but not to any great degree, as far as I recall.

 

Why the rage?

 

Imagine, if you will, that you're a decendent of Ferrus Manus and the legitimate successor of a Chapter that gave every single life in the pursuit of defending the Imperium. You come from a warrior tradition steeped not only in the pride and exemplary service of the Astartes, but a nearly neurotic search for perfection, strength, and resilience. The men serving under you are losing their lives not because of their own failings, though those do exist, but more because others can't be trusted to do as they must and stand against the darkness.

 

How would you feel?

 

In my mind it just seems very uncharacteristic if the Astartes; focused anger and hatred yes, but more often than not rage can be a very petulant thing which doesn't fit - again a personal interpretation.

[Apothete]

Or less succinctly; I'd say be a little looser with the word count, because I'm all for following guidelines but at the end of this article I want to know the Exonerators.

 

Okay, I have to know.

 

Are you as handsome as Octavulg? If not, I can't put your advice above his.

 

In my mind a fledgling Chapter wouldn't have the resources or manpower to wage war in that manner, but thats a personal interpretation.

 

I suppose it depends on how you define "fledgling," since you could be talking about the first twenty recruits to make it to the Scout Company or you could be talking about three full Battle Companies but not the entire Codex-prescribed organization. Toss on some harderend veterans from the training cadre and decades, if not centuries, of prepartion and it doesn't seem at all unreasonable for a young Chapter to achieve some success.

 

I know it's the morning after the night before, but I still don't agree; you make mention of the Imperial Navy but not to any great degree, as far as I recall.

 

That's intentional.

 

The Navy had been fighting the battle first, the Exonerators show up and tip the balance, continue doing so, and eventually win the fight that the conventional force couldn't. Those they interceded for are badly hurt, left to their own devices, because the Chapter is reaching the point where it doesn't care what happens to those too weak to defend themselves. Since the Navy failed, they're of no concern.

 

In my mind it just seems very uncharacteristic if the Astartes; focused anger and hatred yes, but more often than not rage can be a very petulant thing which doesn't fit - again a personal interpretation.

 

Rage is evidently a part of the Astartes condition, though something which is often tightend and focused into a more useful application of the anger. The Primarchs felt it, else why would Ferrus Manus and Fulgrim have fought so bitterly?

[Captain Juan Juarez]

Or less succinctly; I'd say be a little looser with the word count, because I'm all for following guidelines but at the end of this article I want to know the Exonerators.

 

Okay, I have to know.

 

Are you as handsome as Octavulg? If not, I can't put your advice above his.

 

I don't like to mention this often, but compared to me Octavulg is more Arm Pitt than Brad Pitt.

 

For the other points, stylistically I disagree but you answer my objections in a way I cannot refute.. Damn you!