Justicar, to equiped or vanilla?

[guillaume]

It just dawn on me (after playing DH for 7 month) that a justicar cost more than a terminator.

 

My first question is: WHY?

 

My second question is: If they are so expensive and have access to wargear, should we make the most of our justicar and equipped them properly?

 

I am thinking that perhaps psycannon bolts and targeters may be mandatory for all justicar. Sure makes them more expensive but it also makes them more deadly. Perhaps giving a justicar artificer armour, MSW...to make a more CC oriented justicar.

 

Or should we just bite the bullet and agree that a justicar has a lower save, lower leadership and no Inv save, but that somehow they are just more expensive.

[Captain Malachi]

Oh my god, you're right! How did that happen? Anyway, rant aside, targeters are a must on my justicars, and frags are usually taken as well, beyond that you're getting to expensive.

 

 

By the way, that first bit of my post may have sounded sarcastic and mocking, it wasn't, I really didn't notice either, damn GW!

[revnow]

Standard loadout for a Justicar is a targeter and frags, I add melta bombs to my own as insurance against dreads and defilers. The opportunity cost of equipping anything else is way to high, especially since Daemonhunters need all the points they can get.

 

As to why the Justicar is more expensive than a terminator, I think I can answer that in a couple of ways.

Disclaimer: I am in no way defending the cost of a Justicar being 50 points, I am on the other hand willing to argue that it is not unreasonable that they cost slightly more than or equal to a terminator.

 

A Justicar has the following things that a standard 40 pt termie does not

WS 5

True Grit (3 attacks whether charging or not)

Relic Blade eqv

The Shrouding ( permanent night fight light)

The Ageis (Localized psychic hood)

Rights of Exorcism (Daemons without assault grenade eqv. assault at initiative 1)

Can sweeping advance

Is a troops choice

 

A terminator has

+2 Armor 5+ invul

the ability to take lightening claws, chainfist, SM termies can take Bamf new TH SS

can take assault cannon, cyclone

relentless

can deep strike

 

Now a little maths ;P

 

Justicar v Standard PSword SB termie

J: 3A @ WS5=2 Hits= 1.66 wounds=1.10 unsaved wound (aproximately after 5+ invul)

T: 2A @ WS4=1 Hits=.5 Wounds=.5 Unsaved Wounds

 

v Lightening Claw Termie

J: 3A @ WS5=2 Hits= 1.66 wounds=1.10 unsaved wound (aproximately after 5+ invul)

T: 3A @ WS4=1.5 Hits=1.075 wounds=1.075 unsaved wounds

 

On average a Justicar will do more wounds to a lightening claw terminator than the terminator will do to it.

[Gentlemanloser]

Now Compare a Justicar to the 4 points Cheaper GKT. :lol:

[guillaume]

A Justicar has the following things that a standard 40 pt termie does not

WS 5

True Grit (3 attacks whether charging or not)

Relic Blade eqv

The Shrouding ( permanent night fight light)

The Ageis (Localized psychic hood)

Rights of Exorcism (Daemons without assault grenade eqv. assault at initiative 1)

Can sweeping advance

Is a troops choice

 

A terminator has

+2 Armor 5+ invul

the ability to take lightening claws, chainfist, SM termies can take Bamf new TH SS

can take assault cannon, cyclone

relentless

can deep strike

 

Well, sure but as Gentlemanloser points out, my beef is not with regular termies, but with Justicar costing more than GKT.

 

GKT have access to all GK rules and equipment, but are still cheaper at 46pts.

 

I agree that targeters and frags are almost mandatory, but then is it because Justicar can take any equipment from the wargear that they more expensive whereas GKT are limited for wargear...

[Tauren]

You are still up on said terminator by an attack and the ability to sweeping advance. Here's a better question: how much does a decked out space marine squad leader go for? Additionally you have to factor in that our book is old, and by old I mean space wolves old. Emperor's crusty hide old. So, the points equivalent is going to be a little off. The general idea is that the justicar should be kept cheap, as you already have alot of points in a decked out grey knights list and they are nasty on their own.

[Inquisitor Fox]

Maybe it's just me in my fantasy veteran self that asks this question..but...

 

Why take a targeter? Are you really THAT worried about a target unit being 24.1" away that you're going to spend a point just to let you measure first? We don't measure in the shooting or assault phases until after we do things, but I fail to see why having a targeter is that important. I've never used them, even with stormtroopers because I forget they're there, and I've yet to had them even matter at all.

 

Now, I'm not trying to sound petulant, but I honestly just don't see the point. Can someone please enlighten me? <_<

[Auedawen]

While a Justicar is expensive compared to a DIFFERENT unit, it's best to compare him to his SM counterpart, the Sergeant with powerfist. Believe it or not, that Sergent comes in at 51 pts, has 1 fewer attack, and is significantly worse against everything but high toughness monstrous creatures/Vehicles. Not only that, but our Justicar has a Stormbolter, access to a targeter, and all the above mentioned GK special abilities. I'm not sure about you all, but I'd prefer the Justicar.

[Gentlemanloser]

You are still up on said terminator by an attack and the ability to sweeping advance.

 

And you lose one point of save and Relentless.

 

Here's a better question: how much does a decked out space marine squad leader go for?

 

More. But it's a bad comparison. You *can* overload your SM Arges with all sorts of wepaons (tough luck Justicar) and a couple of wargear items.

 

ut you don't have to. You have the choice of keepinh him bare bones and the squad cheap.

 

Grey Knights don't get that choice. You have to include a tooled up (well, Power Weapon and Terminator Honours...) Justicar in every already expensive squad you take.

 

There's no option to keep a squad 'cheap'.

 

While a Justicar is expensive compared to a DIFFERENT unit, it's best to compare him to his SM counterpart, the Sergeant with powerfist. Believe it or not, that Sergent comes in at 51 pts, has 1 fewer attack, and is significantly worse against everything but high toughness monstrous creatures/Vehicles. Not only that, but our Justicar has a Stormbolter, access to a targeter, and all the above mentioned GK special abilities. I'm not sure about you all, but I'd prefer the Justicar.

 

Until you face that Wraithlord in CC. <_<

[Auedawen]

If you play correctly you shouldn't be facing a wraithlord in CC. In a pure GK list, the primary target of one's dreadnoughts should be Wraithlords first and foremost. The specialty of Grey Knights is in the anti-infantry department, they'll take care of that. The focus of our Dreads (or land raiders i suppose) is the elimination of vehicles and Monstrous Creatures...Like Wraith Lords. You also have to consider the fact that in a Tactical squad, the only model that can hurt the Wraithlord at all is the Sergent, whereas in a PAGK squad EVERYONE can throw wounds on it. So a little mathhammer?

 

Lets say Justicar and 7 PAGK (standard load out it seems on the board) versus the SM Sergent alone, as the rest of the squad just absorbs wounds away from him.

 

Justicar: 3 attacks, 2 hit (ws5). S6 against T8 means a 1/6 wound x 2 hits = .333 Wounds.

7 PAGK: 14 attacks, 9.33 hit (ws5). 1.55 wounds, 3+ armor save means ~ .5 wounds

PAGK squad: ~ .83 wounds

 

Sergent: 2 attacks, 1 hits (ws4) S8 vs T8 means 1/2 wound = .5 wounds

 

 

 

I dunno, I don't really see the huge step up going to the Sergent do you? Even with the entire Justicar squad dead (which yes, is a fair deal more points than that Marine squad), the Justicar is only a touch worse than the Sergent. So even in the most extreme circumstances against the unit PAGK are least well equipped to fight...the Justicar is still just about as good as that Sergent.

[Tauren]

Well like I said, that's the structure of how it works. Honestly I see no problem with it, since it's simply a power-weapon storm-bolter wielding in power armour vet with 3 attacks and all the goodies of a knight. Fact is that cheap is not what grey knights are. If you want cheap go with vanilla knights with no upgrades, if you want truely cheaper grab sisters with bolters. For one more point than a storm-trooper they are a steal. But again, don't complain about the lack of choices when you limit yourself to the available choices, that's just anti-productive. If you wish you could start with an SM base army and convert/pain up your marines as grey knights. In era's past knights used to wield plain ol bolters. That suffices to say that at some-point where was a transition from bolters to storm-bolter and NFW combo's. Model your army at that era and tada, cheaper marines with elite knights.

[Gentlemanloser]

Ok.. Wounding a Daemon Prince of Nurgle on a 2+ instead of a 4+.

 

Regardless, you can still pimp out a SM Sarge to be considerably more expensive than a Justicar is base 9But the Justicar could theoritically spend 100 points on wargear, if you were so inclinded), but you don't have to.

 

You can keep him the cheap, one of 5, for 90 points, while the same cannot be done for the Justicar.

 

If you wish you could start with an SM base army and convert/pain up your marines as grey knights.

 

That's not really an arguement though, is it. You could play your Tau mini's as Space Marines, etc, etc.

 

In era's past knights used to wield plain ol bolters. That suffices to say that at some-point where was a transition from bolters to storm-bolter and NFW combo's. Model your army at that era and tada, cheaper marines with elite knights.

 

Sure, we can do anything we want. But if you want to stick to in codex, and some folk thrive on the 'canon', then we don't have the flexibilty that other Marines do. Some like this, others think its outdated design.

 

Edit:

 

I think the main point is that, yes, you *can* make a SM sarge cost more than a Terminator. But you have the choice not to do so, it's not by default that a SM sarge costs more than a bog standard Termy.

 

The Justicar is always, and will always, cost more than the GKT. And seeign as the GKT are supposidly higher up in Rank and Ability than a Squads Justicar, people find that a bit, off.

[Auedawen]

Wow, everyone's posting quick replies (I edited a little more to my last post btw).

 

And yes, while true that you CAN take a cheap sergent...how many people do? And how many people here would NOT take the Justicar upgrade to the S6 power weapon? Considering he's a mere 25pts more than a normal PAGK, with the "squad leader upgrade" of approximately 10pts, you're still only paying 15pts for that unbelievable S6 power weapon. I'd always pay it, and will HAPPILY pay 50pts for my Justicar.

 

[Edit] Though, looking back it seems I've derailed the thread into a discussion about the cost efficiency of the Justicar instead of the OP's original point. Gentlemanloser is very much right though that the cost of the Justicar is high, sitting at 50 points. And considering the cost of the rest of our troops, it's really best to keep the Justicar as slim as possible. Frags or a Targeter at most.

[Tauren]

Canon?

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/b/b3/Greyknights2.jpg

 

 

Early conception Grey Knights... you want cheap knights convert them and play as a counts as army. Our army book is out of date, our options are limited and even more so because of player choice to play a "pure" army. If you don't want to accept the alternatives then that's no one's fault but the player himself, period. As far as sticking to the codex, the codex strictly says... "grey knights may be taken in a space marine based list as an ally." This choice is a conversion happy and versatile army while sticking with both the codex and the cannon. If you want a versatile Grey Knights pure army, take this choice... it will turn out better than any "pure" grey knights list with daemonhunter codex alone. Oddly enough some people actually like to play a cool army like knights and win often because they are veteran players, this composition is a good choice to accomplish that.

 

That said auedawen makes a good point, hidden powerfist vets show up, alot. On top of that you end up with a nice little soldier that's throwing out 3 s6 power attacks in close combat, that's nasty no matter how you put it.

 

As far as points cost versus rank... that's a poor arguement, points do not equal rank. If that was true in any-way shape or form a dreadnought, IE a veteran space marine in a suit of dreadnought armor is the highest ranking space marine in most armies. They have high points cost compared to a plain ol terminator based on the fact that they have access to wargear, unlike a plain old termy. They do not hold a higher rank in any-way and in fact just like in other chapters the justicar's as teachers are often older and held at a higher level of respect than the veterans walking around in terminator armor. This is why in story after story there are often old grizzled warriors walking around teaching younglings. Justicars are the teachers that keep the basic troopers of the knights going. Terminators are the heavy infantry, and bodyguards, guess who is more important? Further-more the basic grey knights need to fulfill the roles that all marine chapters have, as heavy weapons and close combat unlike many armies because of this they are not only gonna be expensive but need a powerful close combat vet to get the job done. Could he be cheaper? yes... do I care until the new codex comes out? No... simple as that. (which won't be for a while as I understand... nothing new, I play beasts o chaos 2...)

[revnow]

@ Gentlemanloser: And when kept on the cheap is a +1 A Ld9 SM. Give that Sarg anything close to comparable equipment to a Justicar and it is not only more expensive, but still less capable at everything the Justicar can do.

 

Justicar v. GKT

J: 3A @ WS5 = 1.5H = 1.3W = .866 unsaved wounds

GKT: 2A @ WS5 = 1H = .833W = .833 unsaved wounds

A justicar is more likely to kill a GKT than a GKT is to kill the Justicar, not by much, but maybe that plus access to the armory (esp. frags and melta bombs) is enough to justify the 4 points.

 

@ Inquisitor Pykonnen: The targeter is actually more cheaty than anything else. For 1 point you get to pre measure the distances to all possible shooting targets. I use it to pre measure the distance to squads I want to charge. That way if a squad's closest model is 5.9" away I simply choose not to shoot the SBs and opt for a charge instead. If the GKs are charging through difficult terrain, it lets me know how high I would need to roll on a difficult terrain check so that I know the chance of making it. Having a targeter takes 90% of the guess work out of distances and assaulting/shooting. GKs in particular have to maximizes their efficiency to be effective, and one of the best ways to do that is to eliminate or mitigate as much guess work as possible. I put a targeter on anything I can, because really, it costs a single point.

 

@ Guillaume: GKTs do not in fact have access to the armory, which as explained above can make a big difference. They may take holocaust, and PAGKs can take incinerators and psycannons, but may only take one, and at a higher price.

 

While I will admit to the fact that a Sargeant with a powerfist can potentially deal more damage to MCs (that are not Daemons without frag grenade eqvuivalents). As noted before, a GK list played right should not have PAGKs fighting wraithlords, and on balance, the Justicar is better for its points than any tooled up SM Sarg.

[Tauren]

rev meng, the storm bolters are assault 2, you can open fire with them, and assault. Unless you mean not shooting them and instead running. You can still move 6, open fire with all weapons, and assault 6 (without difficult terrain).

[revnow]

No, I mean shooting, dealing unsaved wounds, and having the models be removed which moves the squad out of assault range. Also, targeting lets me know which squads are in and which squads are out of assault range, which helps with determining multiple assaults and target preference.

[iamnothere]

Our problem isn't expensive troops and characters, I also play EC and thay're the same points.

 

Our problem is our lack of other options in other slots (heavy/fast/elite) that are GK.

 

Oh, I also don't think that any other squad leaders can take artificer armour and psycannons but that's expensive.

[Tauren]

No, I mean shooting, dealing unsaved wounds, and having the models be removed which moves the squad out of assault range. Also, targeting lets me know which squads are in and which squads are out of assault range, which helps with determining multiple assaults and target preference.

 

Huh... interesting, I never even thought about that. Thanks for the tips.

[Gentlemanloser]

Early conception Grey Knights...

 

And pace Marines used to be able to use Shuriken Catapults.

 

They have high points cost compared to a plain ol terminator based on the fact that they have access to wargear, unlike a plain old termy. They do not hold a higher rank in any-way and in fact just like in other chapters the justicar's as teachers are often older and held at a higher level of respect than the veterans walking around in terminator armor.

 

GK don't hold to usual Rank structure;

 

Each successful recruit is given a suit of Aegis Armour and a Nemesis Force weapon, and is assigned to a squad under the leadership of a Justicar. The Grey Knight can ascend to the position of Justicar, and then from this point may be awarded the Crux Terminatus of the Grey Knights (which would also be accompanied by a suit of Tactical Dreadnought armour). Elite soldiers within the Terminator corps can be promoted to the position of Brother-Captain, or even to the position of Grand Master.

 

*All* Terminators are higher in rank than Justicars.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

It just dawn on me (after playing DH for 7 month) that a justicar cost more than a terminator.

 

My first question is: WHY?

 

Because they are the only Grey Knight that can take Frag Grenades? Or Melta Bombs?

[Tauren]

Shuriken catapults are a type of technology, back in the day of rogue-traders the chapters and the imperium as a whole was not nearly as stringent on the use of technology and the catapult launcher like an AK-47 (which troops often pick up) is simply another weapon. Back then space marines had more individuality unlike now and using alien tech was not out of line. I fail to see the point to this statement. As for canon it has been known that even space marines will use chaos space marine weapons when necessary. (source: space marine assault veteran from uriel ventris series using a raptor plasma pistol to detonate a demo pack under a bridge.) I personally would love to see our friends in the ordo xenos pick up some xeno tech gear to throw onto their death-watch teams.

 

I continue to disagree, but have it your way. Based in the simple limited nature of the chapter, the tools they use, the limited knowledge of the structure and the ideals behind the basic space marine chapters I believe that terminator armor is an honor, and as with retinues the soldiers are personally selected by the brother-captain to serve as a retinue and wear the armor, they are not just awarded a rank and given a suit like a pair of clothing, further-more terminator armor is limited to specific engagements. It is doned occasionally not worn all the time, such most terminators when not needing their armor for intense engagement would utilize simple power-armor. In fact the understanding that terminators do not have a rank associated with them other than terminator honors means little, terminator honors are not a rank but a reward like a medal. A justicar could easy done a suit of terminator armor in neccesary times if he has the honors to match. Unlike in normal chapters grey knights ranking structure is not rigid, and terminators are not "always" the higher rank simply because they were glorified tank metal on their hide. But I suppose agreeing to disagree is all that can be done.

[Gentlemanloser]

Out of all the wargear they can purchase, Justicars cannot purchase Terminator Armour.

 

The codex backs up the fluff here.

[Tauren]

Terminator armour is an honor to marines, as stated the codex has no grip on actual fluff, more over it would make little sense for a justicar to be able to buy terminator armor and limit the versatility that a basic grey knight's squad has. Terminator armor on a justicar makes it so basic squads can't sweeping advance, rules-wise its a pointless anyways but canon wise, why would you send a single suit of terminator Armour with basic grey knights unless it was a very high ranking member, IE a brother captain that wears it almost exclusively? They have access to artificer armor which unlike most marine vets, who don't have access to it, allows for a 2+ equivalent save to terminator armor. The fact that terminator honors is not a war gear option and probably wasn't a war gear option back at the creation of this codex further backs that comment. Could someone expound on the war gear options for basic marines in 3rd edition and whether termy honors was an available option?

 

In normal chapters terminator armour is worn exclusively by the first company, in grey knights companies don't exist. Knights form roaving bands in smaller and larger groups to service the many needs of the imperium, topped with the fact that their numbers usually triple that of normal space marines. Further-more terminator Armour is an awarded honor, not a rank. Seek out canon information on the crux terminatus (source: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Crux_Terminatus ). Which explains that even lower ranking marines may gain access to this and are trained and allowed to use terminator armor that does not mean that they will always use it or the simple fact that terminator armor is rare and special equipment further brings on the fact that an acting justicar may have terminator honors (I would not be surprised in our new codex as with the newer SM chapters if termy honors becomes wargear they can and will take) without wearing the armor. Further-more terminator honors are small, usually represented by a simple crux on a chain, even smaller in the Grey Knights as one of the most notable examples is the crux found on the brother-captain in the terminator box hanging from waist.

 

Codex points and options does not make something canon, it never has and never will.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

as stated the codex has no grip on actual fluff

 

Excuse me? The codex IS the fluff, it is only trumped by an FAQ. What the codex says, goes. Even the rulebook has less authority that the codicies when it comes to fluff.