GK Pride, beat my Justicar

[revnow]

So, given guillaume's topic about equipping a Justicar I though it might be fun to see just how the Justicar stacks up against SM sargeants, and hopefully engender a little pride in the GK's 50 point monster. Here's the challenge. Build a SM tac squad Sargeant with any of the equipment availible to one in C:SM. List the gear and the final points cost (forum rules: do not post points for individual wargear). I will do the math of the Sarg v. the Justicar and list the winner (maybe even tac on an entertaining little blurb), as well as do the math of each versus a vanilla MEQ troop model. GO!

[Gentlemanloser]

Can we use Abilities granted by the HQ choices?

 

Edit:

 

If we allow Sicarus (and take the cost of the SM Sarge to be the squad cost minus what 4 additional marines would be - which the new free wepaons through out a litte) then how about;

 

SM Sarge, Infiltrate, Combi-Plasma (36 points) and First Turn.

 

Idea would be to Shoot the Justicar with a Rapid Fire Plasma shot before he can do anything.

[revnow]

A valiant effort and yet no. I'm thinking more along the terms of combat in a vacuum. If we were to allow infinite regression I could say I have a GM or inquisitor with emperor's tarot, and that you only have a 30% chance of seizing the initiative from me. Or go even further and say that I have a Callidus assassin to move your Sarg. In addition, neither of the models would be by themselves in a game type instance, each being accompanied by their respective squad. And, given the nature of infiltrate, the combi-plasma would only deal .55 unsaved wounds, which includes the potential of an overheat. I will do it in a vacuum though and allow both models to shoot at each other as if the turns happen simultaneously. Assuming no overheat

SMS: .55 unsaved wounds from shooting 2A @ WS4=1H=.5W=.166 unsaved wounds (total .716 unsaved wounds)

J: .28 unsaved wounds from shooting 3A @ WS5=2H=1.66W=1.66 unsaved wounds (total 1.94 unsaved wounds)

 

As the snarling Astartes Sergeant lept forth from the embankment, Justicar Weiss paused. "How had he missed that during the sweep?" The brief moment of frustration was shattered as the Marine produced its bolter, underslung by a one shot plasma tube. It was an artifact of insurmountable value, no doubt awarded to the hardened soldier for many valorous acts previous to this horrific day. There was the pitched whine of an energy weapon discharging and the visual inputs shorted for a nanosecond, their recovery yielding the streaking after image of ionized air. In the same nanosecond Weiss shifted his weight, activated the targeter, and engaged his Storm Bolter, swinging the barking weapon up in a sharp arc to meet the locking reticle.

 

Explosive shells stitched across the ground toward the traitorous dog, leaving small craters in the hardened prairie; the final round slamming into its chest. In the moment of satisfaction, Weiss' storm bolter exploded, the ammo feed going off like a frigate tearing itself from the warp. The plasma had found its mark. Automated senors clicked back online and the Justicar regained visual. The HUD indicated that his right arm was not functional, upon inspection it became clear that this was because his right arm wasn't there. A charred, smoking stump jutted from the shattered remains of his shoulder pad, the golden etched prayers to the God Emperor melted and twisted, as if by the very doubt of the disgusting traitor marine.

 

The Justicar used his Nemesis Force Weapon to stand while scanning for the Sergeant. As expected it rose from the grass, the Aquila on its chestplate a broken crevice. "Fitting". Weiss began to shuffle towards the creature, his left hand clutching his weapon just below the grass line. It screamed at him "Khorne bids you welcome, and awaits your pathetic corpse god," then dropped into a beastial crouch and shot forward, holding down the trigger on its bolter. Weiss maintained his pose, shuffling forward, left arm hanging low. The Sergeant came within a single meter, and that was all as the Justicar spun on his right foot, sweeping his halberd up from the grass. It caught the marine under his right armpit and tore through ceramite armor, pulling a trail of sizzling gore with it. "The Emperor sends his regards. His will be DONE!"

 

Also, the cost of a SM Sarge with combi plasma is 40 points.

[Gentlemanloser]

Meh.

 

I don't think anyone would contest that counting up potential casuable wounds a Justicar would beat out a Sarge in CC.

 

Even if you give the Sarge counterattack, a Pistol and a Power Weapon for 4 attacks in CC.

 

Sure, the Justicar will always come out on top, especially when you don't include squad based 'freebies' the new Marines get. It still doesn't stop the fact you can design a much cheaper (how did you get to the Point cost of the Sarge?) Sarge that has the potential to olbiterate the usticar with Plasma Wepaons, before the Justicar can even bring his deadly NFW into play.

 

/shrug

 

Edit: Brilliant Narative though! ;)

[Lone Scout]

Awesome narative !!!! Have you written other pieces?

[Gentlemanloser]

As for a cheap SM killer, consider a bog standard Assault Terminator with a TH/Storm Shield;

 

SMT: None / 3 Attacks (on the charge) = 1.5 hits = 1.25 unsaved wounds (Total 1.25)

J: 2 Shots = 1.33 Hits = 0.65 wounds = 0.11 Unsaved / 3 Attacks = 2 Hits = 1.65 wounds = 0.55 Unsaved Wounds (Total 0.66)

 

All for 10 points cheaper, even if it's Elite versus Troop (or Fast).

 

How about a Company Champion (3 attacks, 2+ Save, 4 Power Weapon/5 On the Charge Attacks and a Bolter) versus the Justicar? Or even bumping up the points to see if a Justicars wargear could match a CC with Relic Blade, Digital Lasers and Aux Grenade Launcher?

[Skytear]

On that note, what about A C:SM of the same value?

 

[EDIT: To be more specific, a Noise Marine Champion with a Doom Siren.]

 

[EDIT PS: I know, this was only about Space Marines, but the math works also with the rest - and franky, I'm very interested in this]

[revnow]

@Gentlemanloser: Yeah, there's really no arguing that the starting cost for a Justicar is pretty expensive, but I think if you consider the freebies that GKs have, 50 to 30 points is pretty cost comparable. It is unfortunate though that SM get a great deal of variety on the cheap while GK are inflexible and expensive. My primary argument is that if you consider the core, GKs are expensive and worthwhile, while SM are cheaper and somewhat mediocre. You will never find any disagreement from me though about the fact that Grey Knights desperately need more variants and options. Desperately.

 

A TH/SS termie was the best matchup I could come up with for the points as well. I really think they are unquestionably the most points efficient thing to come out of the new C:SM. The Justicar still can still do more than .5 wounds on average before the Termie gets to swing, which is a decent chance to kill it. But, thats only on average, and if a 5 termie TH/SS assault squad hits a 10 PAGK squad or a 5 GKT squad, they're smoked.

 

I will try to do the company champion matchup a bit later this afternoon if I get the chance.

 

I started the thread more for fun than anything, so that Grey Knight players could see just what they are getting for 50 points compared to other "squad upgrade" MEQs, and maybe do a little writing.

 

@Lone Scout: Only in a few battle reports. If you would like I'll try and edit this post with the links a bit later in the day.

 

@Skytear: Post it and I will do the math and the story. Chaos champs will make for better narratives.

[Skytear]

@Skytear: Post it and I will do the math and the story. Chaos champs will make for better narratives.

 

Ooops, I thought I did. ;)

 

Alright:

 

Scenario #1

1 Noise Marine Champion, armed with a Doom Siren, fires the guitar and then charges into CC.

 

"Enemy mine, suffer!"

Endrazar's beautiful voice harmoniously sung as he unleashed the power of his siren, unleashing a wonderful cacophonic stream of rainbow coloured sonic energy at the dog of the false emperor. The Champion smiled amusedly as he closed the distance to his foe, almost dancing into the arms of an old lover. The perfect dance, he thought. And in the end, the pleasure of the kill. He could almost feel the excitement.

 

 

Scenario #2:

My other one would be: Noise Marine Champion with a ENERGY Weapon, being charged by the Justicar.

 

Endrazar whirled around to face the whimpling emperor's lackey. The massive foce-weapon of the grey knight clashed into him in full force. Cries of joy and excitement lept from Endrazar's mouth as his energy sword crashed into the blade of the Nemesis force weapon, sending sparks of pleasure and pain through his body, catching the weapon mere inches before his face. Moving with unnatural grace, his reflexes boosted by the forces of the warp, Endrazar, sinfully beautiful, managed to deflect the crackling force away from his beautifully, androgyne face. In an orgiastic motion, Endrazar watched it tear a hand-sized chunk out of his shoulderpad. Oh, the pleasure.

 

EDIT: I put Power instead of energy, my bad, sorry. I'm looking forward to your narrative, Revnow, they're good!

[Gentlemanloser]

Don't stop! The narative is brilliant! ;)

 

While Assault Termies are great, and as durable as Termies should be, I think Sternguard are the most points effecient thing in the new Codex, well maybe beside a Thunderfire (only 25 points1), but if you tailor the fight to always include CC, a Justicar would always come out on top.

 

But I still don't think a SM Sarge is 30 points! <_<