Hunter-Killer Missiles?

[Souchan]

Actually, lets take a look at what it says it does as opposed to what we imagine(by that I mean imagine the nature of a missle and it being launched).

 

"HK missles....can be used once per battle. They are fired at BS X. They are treated as an additional weapon."

 

Now replace HK missles with anything. Say "experimental laser" for giggles.

 

To me, it is the notion of what a missle is that gets in the way here. I find the final sentence in the quote to be the main one that does it for me.

[rat of vengence]

The problem is that your opinion is not supported in any way, shape or form, by the 40k rules, and the HK entry.

 

It's not that the rules don't explicitly state that, but sorta do....it's that the rules don't say ANYTHING along the lines of what you're arguing.

 

It counts as a weapon. Period.

 

Heh. I just supported you in another thread, and now you turn and do this...

 

:P

 

 

It counts as a weapon. Agreed. The weapon is no longer there once it has been fired. It is one use, once used it is gone. It cannot be fired again because it is no longer there. :)

 

p61 includes H/K as one of the weapons that can be destroyed "ripped off by the force of the attack. If a vehicle has no weapons left..". But if the weapon isn't there to be ripped off...

 

I think the crux of it is, we don't agree that a H/K is still/isn't still a weapon after it has been fired. The rules don't state either way, but I think that logically if a one use weapon has been used, it is no longer a weapon in game terms.

 

"I am going to shoot my H/K at your rhino."

"But you used it already!"

"Yes, but it is still a weapon..."

 

:P

 

RoV

[eyescrossed]

I asked a GW staffer about the HK missile, and he said it's only a weapon until it's fired, but you know GW staff, how they all have different opinions, except for the fact that I've asked about 8 different staff in 3 different stores, and they all said it's only until it's fired.

 

The current problem is RAW.

[Praeger]

The weapon is no longer there once it has been fired. It is one use, once used it is gone. It cannot be fired again because it is no longer there.

 

This is the bit of your argument that is never supported.

 

The weapon can fire once - but that does not mean the weapon is not there.

 

Think of it like this - i have a gun with 6 rounds in it. I fire 6 times. Do I have a gun?

 

"I am going to shoot my H/K at your rhino."

"But you used it already!"

"Yes, but it is still a weapon..."

 

Again, this isnt at all what people are saying (and yes I realise your saying it as a joke, but it is a good example!!)

 

Its a one shot weapon.

 

Just like a H-Bolter fires 3 shots per turn, this fires 1 shot per game.

 

Thats it.

[eyescrossed]

Okay then, now Skyrays are nigh-indestructable tank shockers when their missiles are gone (assuming you get weapon destroyed results).

[Trekari]

Maybe an HK missile simply takes 7 turns to reload? Doesn't mean it's gone after one shot, just that it takes so long to reload that you can only ever use it once per game since games end after Turn 7 no matter what.

 

And rat, my comment wasn't personal - I found it ironic too since I read your other post in GoI. ;) It's just that the rules don't support your argument. Doesn't mean I hate ya :P

[rat of vengence]

The weapon is no longer there once it has been fired. It is one use, once used it is gone. It cannot be fired again because it is no longer there.

 

This is the bit of your argument that is never supported.

 

The weapon can fire once - but that does not mean the weapon is not there.

 

Think of it like this - i have a gun with 6 rounds in it. I fire 6 times. Do I have a gun?

 

"I am going to shoot my H/K at your rhino."

"But you used it already!"

"Yes, but it is still a weapon..."

 

Again, this isnt at all what people are saying (and yes I realise your saying it as a joke, but it is a good example!!)

 

Its a one shot weapon.

 

Just like a H-Bolter fires 3 shots per turn, this fires 1 shot per game.

 

Thats it.

 

 

Yes, but my point is the Heavy Bolter is still there, as is the gun with a now empty magazine, but the single use missile isn't.

 

I do see how there are two different points of view, and I think my trouble is I try to apply logic ;) to a GW ruleset... it doesn't always work that way.

 

And rat, my comment wasn't personal - I found it ironic too since I read your other post in GoI. It's just that the rules don't support your argument. Doesn't mean I hate ya

All good, I didn't think it was personal, except you disagree with me, so that makes you evil and unkind! :P

 

RoV

[Hexx]

The weapon is no longer there once it has been fired. It is one use, once used it is gone. It cannot be fired again because it is no longer there.

 

This is the bit of your argument that is never supported.

 

The weapon can fire once - but that does not mean the weapon is not there.

 

Think of it like this - i have a gun with 6 rounds in it. I fire 6 times. Do I have a gun?

 

 

 

No, it's actually like you have a single bullet, throw it at the encroaching zombies, then still claim to have a bullet.

[Commander Gitsnik]

Yes, but my point is the Heavy Bolter is still there, as is the gun with a now empty magazine, but the single use missile isn't.

I'm going to point at the 7-turns-to-reload comment. Because I think that just wins. Still, I'm sticking with it's-able-to-be-destroyed for the same reason a combi weapon is still counted as a fully-priced combi weapon if you fire the flamer from it.

I do see how there are two different points of view, and I think my trouble is I try to apply logic :P to a GW ruleset... it doesn't always work that way.

Application of logic suggests that the weapon is still just that, a weapon, whether you have fired the ammunition or not.

 

 

 

Regardless of what the model looks like.

[rat of vengence]

7 turns to reload? Can you give me a page number, for rules or fluff?

 

What does what the model looks like, and the points cost of the weapon have to do with anything?

 

As for your logic, the weapon IS the ammo in this case. "A H/K missile IS a Krak missile with unlimited range...", not is loaded with.

If you have fired it, the weapon is gone.

 

RoV

[Trekari]

RoV -

 

Of course it takes 7 turns to reload. Why else could you only use it once? Or maybe we'll go with: after you fire it, the weapon is no longer there, so cannot be destroyed.

 

Neither of those statements are supported by the rules. That's the precise reason I made up the reload time comment.

 

Only thing the rules have to say about this issue: "They are treated as an additional weapon." I agree that makes that Sky Ray thing or whatever a serious freakin problem, IF you roll a 3 or 4 on the damage table, but that's how the rules go.

[Whoopxi]

In regards to the skyray unit from the Tau. Although I do not have the codex in front of me to support this, I am pretty sure that seeker missles actually mention no longer being around after they fire.

 

The situation regarding the HK missle is that the wording never clarifies what to count it as after being fired. I believe in the RAI side with it not being there after use... but unfortunately would have to side with the RAW argument that it technicly doesn't say it is removed after firing.

[Souchan]

In regards to the skyray unit from the Tau. Although I do not have the codex in front of me to support this, I am pretty sure that seeker missles actually mention no longer being around after they fire.

 

The situation regarding the HK missle is that the wording never clarifies what to count it as after being fired. I believe in the RAI side with it not being there after use... but unfortunately would have to side with the RAW argument that it technicly doesn't say it is removed after firing.

 

No such comment in it, it only mentions it is a one shot weapon.

[maniclurker]

How 'bout this solution:

 

Even though it's clear that it's a weapon, even after it's been fired, we'll leave it up to how you model it.

 

I'm going to make sure mine is modelled with the current HK missile model (bazooka toob). Actually, I'll probably hunt down some of the older, boxed style launchers, because I think those look cooler. Reguardless, even after I fire the missile, the launcher is still there, and you can destroy it if you roll it.

 

If you model it as the 'big missile strapped to the tank' style, then you can go ahead and say there's no more weapon to destroy as it's shot off, straps and all.

 

Why? Because your enemy (the army, not the player) doesn't know whether or not a missile is in the launcher, so it's just as valid a target. Alternatively, a round just happened to hit it, instead of smashing my treads.

 

P.S. 7 turn reload for the win.

[Bracks0682]

As nice as it sounds that the empty casing is still a viable weapon on the vehicle. I'm of the understanding tha a single use weapon is just that and as such once fired its gone not to return.

As for the argument of an empty gun Reload...

[Brother-Flame]

I had a thought, since you buy a hk missile, and not the launcher, the launcher might already be there, as a standard fitting to all Imperial vehicles, but you can't use it as a weapon if it has no ammo! Therefore, you buy the ammo thus making it a viable weapon, again once fired, no ammo, no longer a weapon, now it's just equipment on the vehicle, like cupholders. Thus the launcher isn't a weapon, cause all Imperial vehicles have them. Also yet again, WHAT SOLDIER TRYING TO BLOW UP A TANK AIMS FOR SUME USELESS EQUIPMENT THATS NO GONNA WORK THE REST OF THE BATTLE!

 

Plus the smoke launcher aren't destroyd, they're just empty, their still on the vehicle! Take that into consideration.

 

Thats my opinion.

[Captain Malachi]

WHAT SOLDIER TRYING TO BLOW UP A TANK AIMS FOR SUME USELESS EQUIPMENT THATS NO GONNA WORK THE REST OF THE BATTLE!

The soldier isn't aiming at the small launcher on the top of the tank, of course he isn't, he's aiming at the fuel so it will explode, however, hitting a moving tank is not easy! He's lucky to hit it at all. None of this matters though, the rules say it is a weapon, whatever logic you try to use to say that it isn't won't work, 'cos it's still a weapon!

[Souchan]

I've never considerd weapon destroyed results to be 100% the intention of the firer. The D6 determines just how damaging the shot was, one of the results being a destroyed weapon. Sure it is chosen by the attacker, but to me that feels more like a balancing thing so the defender can't choose a stormbolter over an assault cannon. If it was defenders choice, I think the Weapon destroyed result would be really hated.

[Commander Gitsnik]

As for the argument of an empty gun Reload...

Combi-Weapon?

[Brother_Dan'l]

The weapon is no longer there once it has been fired. It is one use, once used it is gone. It cannot be fired again because it is no longer there.

 

This is the bit of your argument that is never supported.

 

The weapon can fire once - but that does not mean the weapon is not there.

 

Think of it like this - i have a gun with 6 rounds in it. I fire 6 times. Do I have a gun?

 

 

 

No, it's actually like you have a single bullet, throw it at the encroaching zombies, then still claim to have a bullet.

Not even close. If I have a single bullet and throw it at the zombies I still have my arm don't I? To my mind it is exactly the same thing with the HK. Yes, the entry says "Missile" but can you show me any other entry where you have to buy weapon and ammunition separately? And even with the new style of Guard HKM there is still a launch rail attached to the vehicle. Does it become magically insubstantial?

 

And if one more person comes up with the bull about wiring and generators... :tu: Like I said, this can go round and round but until GW covers it in an FAQ (as they've been asked to do FOR YEARS!) we can't say for certain. So however your group agrees to play it is the right way.

[Hexx]

The weapon is no longer there once it has been fired. It is one use, once used it is gone. It cannot be fired again because it is no longer there.

 

This is the bit of your argument that is never supported.

 

The weapon can fire once - but that does not mean the weapon is not there.

 

Think of it like this - i have a gun with 6 rounds in it. I fire 6 times. Do I have a gun?

 

 

 

No, it's actually like you have a single bullet, throw it at the encroaching zombies, then still claim to have a bullet.

Not even close. If I have a single bullet and throw it at the zombies I still have my arm don't I? To my mind it is exactly the same thing with the HK. Yes, the entry says "Missile" but can you show me any other entry where you have to buy weapon and ammunition separately? And even with the new style of Guard HKM there is still a launch rail attached to the vehicle. Does it become magically insubstantial?

 

And if one more person comes up with the bull about wiring and generators... :P Like I said, this can go round and round but until GW covers it in an FAQ (as they've been asked to do FOR YEARS!) we can't say for certain. So however your group agrees to play it is the right way.

 

That's (really) all I'm saying-I posted earlier against the statement that said You absolutely could take the hit, I wanted to point out that it's not the way I would play, and not the way it must be.

I personally see it as obvious that the weapons go away when it's used, many of you don't.

That's fine (as you said, you can play how you want)- just don't tell me there's no argument to be made against the idea. :P

[Trekari]

I'll bite:

 

There's no argument to be made in the rules that the HK missile goes away after you fire it.

 

By all means though, if you have any rule evidence to the contrary, please do post it in support of your obvious assertion.

[Steelmage99]

Trekari has it. No rule tells us to change the way we look at the HK.

 

 

According to John Spencer this will properbly be FAQed at some point. The change wll state that the HK does not count as a weapon after being fired.

 

We are left with two options; play the rules as they currently stand or play like they, at some unspecified point in time, will be.

[SeattleDV8]

Once FAQed I will play it that way, but for now I will play it as RAW and not as it "might" be changed. It has a better chance of Not being changed< as it has been this way for all of 4th.

[TheReclusiarch]

Common sense - So rare it's a superpower!

 

"Common sense.. tingling!"