Close Combat resolution

[Gentlemanloser]

A couple of things nagged at us when my GK faced Necrons tonight. Both about CC resolution.

 

First, a 10 man PAGK squad assaulted a 15 man Necron Warrior Squad and inflicted 10 casulaties (2 were to Power Weapons, but they were in range of a Lord with a Res Orb). In return the Necrons killed one GK. Unsurprisngly with a -9 Ld modifier, the reaming 5 Necrons fell back, and were destroyed by a Sweeping Advance.

 

We only removed the 5 living Necrons as destoryed, leaivng the 10 already on thier side awaiting a WBB (they were in Range of an other Necron Warrior Squad.

 

Should the 10 dead Necrons have also been removed by the destruction of the Squad by Sweeping Advance? We didn't as they were already 'dead' and not part of the falling back squad at the time.

 

Secondly, the Ld/Fearless Penalties for CC seem a bit off.

 

The same PAGK squad was assaulted by about 8 Scarab Swarms and a Wraith. After the combat, two GK were dead, but I'd inflicted 6 unsaved wounds on the Scarabs. As these were S6 versus T3, six bases of Scarabs were killed. Netting me wining the Combat by a massive 16 wounds.

 

The Wraith has to make a moral check at -16 (which it failed and fled of the board), and the remaining two scarabs had to take an additional 16 saves? Is this correct? Isn't there a cap on this sort of thing? Losing a combat by -16 seems to be a massive penalty, something no one but stubborn troops would seem to weather. And while a large squad could potentially lose 16+ wounds in a CC, it seems particularily harsh on Multi Wound units with low T susceptable to ID.

[Seahawk]

Firstly, you were right to leave the Warriors on the table. They aren't removed until there isn't a unit within range. However, each model down and awaiting WBB has to be within 6" of a different unit...it's not "if one down model is in range then all are in range, you check on a model by model basis. The range can change depending on Tomb Spyders and the like, but the rule is the same.

 

Secondly, there are no caps on Morale modifiers. A unit of GK vs Scarabs or the like is not a common occurance and thus wasn't thought about in designing the rules (among other things). It is harsh, but it is fast and decisive.

[Gentlemanloser]

Thanks!

 

I'm really not a fan of the new CC rules then. Morale was al but removed from Shooting (there's no penalties to your Moral test when losing casualties in Shooting, just when you have to roll), but made so much more debilitating in CC.

 

Maybe an improbable situation, but any large fearless group is really at such a disadvantage, and none fearless groups will always run. Like a 30 man unit of orks suffering 15 casualties (and losing by 15) in a CC, they remain fearless, so the remaining 15 orks have to take another 15 saves. And any other non fearless unit involved would have to make a mroal test at -15.

 

5th Edition seems to have become so much more CC orientated than anything else.

[Steelmage99]

Indeed. One has to be very careful in CC these days.

 

I have had my Nob Bikers attacked by a Cannoness, a Dreadnought, a GK Brother-Captain........and a Stormtrooper squad. Needless to say my Nob Bikers directed all their attacks on the Stormtroopers and won the combat, killing the GK, sending the Cannoness running and leaving just the Dreadnought.

[Iron_Chaos_Brute]

Yes, I've had 20 Berzerkers kill about 70 Orks in one game. When they lose by 14 or 15, most of the rest of the squad goes down, leaving you to finish the combat on their turn and charge something new :)

[maniclurker]

Does the rule book say that the entire squad is removed from the table if they are run down?

 

What does the crondex say about models on their side? Would they be considered part of the same squad as they guys that just got ran down?

[Gentlemanloser]

Can't remember, but I don't think 'dead' 'crons are in any squad. As if thier oriignal sqaud is out of range when they WBB, they join the nearest squad. Even if it's not thier original.

 

Another question about this, is if 'dead' 'crons take up board space. They have to remain where they fell, for WBB ranges. But do they then essentially block that area and stop other units moving into that space?

[Seahawk]

@ maniclurker: Interestingly, here is where the Necron codex actually overrules the BRB.

 

"The destroyed unit is removed immediately. Unless otherwise specified [they are gone]." (BRB)

"Any Necron model...otherwise removed as a casualty, remains on the tabletop and is laid on its side to show that it's damaged." (C:N)

 

That means sweeping advances won't remove them entirely; they fall like any other that just got killed. This was not the case in 4th edition, as there wasn't the "Unless otherwise specified" clause and it even referenced the Necrons' WBB. That was ironclad; this edition loosened up a little bit, for the slight betterment of Necron players everywhere. As it is, fallen models now don't belong to any squad.

 

 

"Damaged Necrons ignore the normal coherency rules and ... are seen as just more battlefield debris."

 

@ Gentlemanloser: No, they don't take up board space and don't count for anything. Essentially terrain that doesn't give a cover save.

[nighthawks]

interestingly - "dead" crons fall back with their unit (from FAQ). wouldn't they then be swept with their unit, too? the whole Necrons ruleset is beyond confusing at times and totally broken...

[Seahawk]

In truth though, that's only in the case of requiring a res orb. And even then, the downed models should never be moved, as they'll join other squads or whatever. GW's "suggestion" blows chunks.

 

Reading a little more, I've determined what I said in the previous post is slightly wrong yet. Here is the full version of what should happen.

 

- Necron player biffs Initiative roll, gets caught in sweeping advance.

1) Standing models are removed, as per the FAQ (left side, 4th Q)

2) Models already laying down and have the opportunity for a WBB stay where they are, as per BRB and C:N interaction

3) Next turn, make WBB's

 

So it's the opposite of what we thought. Neat.

[Gentlemanloser]

Out of date codexes. :D

 

If dead crons don't count as anything, then you could be in a position where you have to place your minis on top of sideways 'crons.

 

I can see now why there's the rumour WBB is going to be replaced with FNP. ;)

[Acemontiero]

So, how do you determine what squad the other warrios join? Does that other squad have to be within a certain range?

[nighthawks]

they join the closest unit, and only get the WBB roll when within 6" of a like unit or res orb.

[Battle Brother SuM]

This broken-ness is why I am back to re-birth my BTs and Jungle Space Marine Raptors.

[Steelmage99]

I wouldn't say it is broken. I do agree to that it requires a bit more reading and thinking that we are used to. :P Might as well say FNP is broken or ATSKNF is. They all tamper with base game mechanics. Granted WBB is certainly the worst of those 3 to really get into. ;)

 

I went through several incarnations of WBB, Ress Orb and Tomb Spyder before I finally got down to some serious reading of the rules.

[nighthawks]

the 'cron rules are not broken due to their power, they are broken as they don't make sense, fit the main ruleset too well, and cause problems. if the monolith rule reduced everything to a blanket AP14 max, THAT would be broken due to strength. as it is, it's just too open to varied, reasonable interpretations, and that's not good rules writing.

[angronn]

In truth though, that's only in the case of requiring a res orb. And even then, the downed models should never be moved, as they'll join other squads or whatever. GW's "suggestion" blows chunks.

 

Reading a little more, I've determined what I said in the previous post is slightly wrong yet. Here is the full version of what should happen.

 

- Necron player biffs Initiative roll, gets caught in sweeping advance.

1) Standing models are removed, as per the FAQ (left side, 4th Q)

2) Models already laying down and have the opportunity for a WBB stay where they are, as per BRB and C:N interaction

3) Next turn, make WBB's

 

So it's the opposite of what we thought. Neat.

 

My regular opponent and I had this crop up in the middle of a game once (the issue being that, against all probability, I'd broken a 15-strong Warrior squad with a Tactical Squad and proceeded to run them down - painful...), and after a lot of searching came up with that exact process. It's not at all an easy question to answer due to the bizarre WBB rules (and the fact they took the WBB reference out of sweeping advance in 5th ed).

 

I agree that Necron rules are broken in the sense of not fully making sense in interacting with all the other game rules, rather than being powerful.