Killhammer Strategy: Using Reserves

[Ookami_81]

I'm really sorry to resurrect an old topic like this one, but I can't imagine creating a topic like "Hey, Warp angel, what about reserves ?"

 

Sadly I realised only today that this article was the only killhammer sigged one I never read before, and that I had questions about it.

I understand the "increase D at the price of decreasing early K" argument, and as a mainly biker/speeder player now, I should be really interested.

 

And I never reserve anything on my army. Why ? Because I think like this:

- Typhoons are long ranged weapons able to kill things turn 1, so why deprive them of opportunities for kill, since they're at the back of the army, that means 4+ cover.

- Bike armies are low body count. If I reserve units that means more concentrated firepower on the deployed ones, so I increase the D of some units to decrease others. Doesn't make sense since what you want to do is to avoid enemy's concentrating fire.

- If I reserve a unit, a good one with good K, and I suck at reserve dices, I took a unit that cost me bucks and points, and reserve made it nearly useless.

 

Some people says that you can reserve all your army when using bike and speeders ones. Yes, you can, I tried.

 

All that did to me was diluting my army to make units come one at a time to the slaughter under hails of fire. It was one my bloodiest defeat: I was tabled, pure and simple.

 

So I have to confess something: I totally suck at reserving things. But what I would want to understand is why ?

[Paulochromis]

search out saim-hann tactica, one way to use bikes is to stay out of trouble all game, then contest at the end.

the longer you avoid being shot at, the better. going second and reserving means your opponent doesn't get to shoot at you for 2 whole turns.

 

on the suck at reserves thing, you could consider tiggy, but since you can't give a bike he could become a liability.

still, give a him a sternguard bodyguard and put him in a rhino/razorback, or just Gate around.

[Koremu]

search out saim-hann tactica, one way to use bikes is to stay out of trouble all game, then contest at the end.

That works for Eldar because their biker troop units are amongst the cheapest units they can field, and because they are utterly weak.

 

It not a sensible idea with Space Marine bikes because the minimum points investment in the unit is over twice the cost, and requires a 160-200 point HQ choice to get in the Troops slot.

[pattison]

search out saim-hann tactica, one way to use bikes is to stay out of trouble all game, then contest at the end.

That works for Eldar because their biker troop units are amongst the cheapest units they can field, and because they are utterly weak.

 

It not a sensible idea with Space Marine bikes because the minimum points investment in the unit is over twice the cost, and requires a 160-200 point HQ choice to get in the Troops slot.

 

Exaclty. SM fast attack units are simply too good to hide around cowardly like the eldar the whole game.

And yes, my Typhoons cost 180 pts / squadron, I want them to kill, and they can. Not to mention that in most of the cases I still have 1 left in last turn to contest with.

[Warp Angel]

I'm really sorry to resurrect an old topic like this one, but I can't imagine creating a topic like "Hey, Warp angel, what about reserves ?"

 

Sadly I realised only today that this article was the only killhammer sigged one I never read before, and that I had questions about it.

I understand the "increase D at the price of decreasing early K" argument, and as a mainly biker/speeder player now, I should be really interested.

 

And I never reserve anything on my army. Why ? Because I think like this:

- Typhoons are long ranged weapons able to kill things turn 1, so why deprive them of opportunities for kill, since they're at the back of the army, that means 4+ cover.

- Bike armies are low body count. If I reserve units that means more concentrated firepower on the deployed ones, so I increase the D of some units to decrease others. Doesn't make sense since what you want to do is to avoid enemy's concentrating fire.

- If I reserve a unit, a good one with good K, and I suck at reserve dices, I took a unit that cost me bucks and points, and reserve made it nearly useless.

 

Some people says that you can reserve all your army when using bike and speeders ones. Yes, you can, I tried.

 

All that did to me was diluting my army to make units come one at a time to the slaughter under hails of fire. It was one my bloodiest defeat: I was tabled, pure and simple.

 

So I have to confess something: I totally suck at reserving things. But what I would want to understand is why ?

 

Using reserves is a tricky choice. Earlier in this thread (more than a year ago... geeze), I said that if you're going to make the choice to use reserves, you need to make sure that the army you have on the table to start the game is capable of holding its own for at least three turns. If your army can't do that (because of low body count or your opponent's ability to overwhelm you without the reserves) then don't do it.

 

If you've got a force that doesn't need a unit or two on the table to start the game, then reserves do a couple things for you:

 

1) Keeps a unit safe from an alpha strike early in the game (Imperial Guard can do this to you pretty easily.

2) Allows you to bring your forces in exactly where they are needed and exactly where your opponent can least afford them to move. This creates local table superiority, allows you to roll a flank or break an enemy wedge.

3) Forces your opponent to react to your strategy instead of doing what he wants to do... this is always a good thing.

4) Lets you attack with a potent unit before your opponent can whittle it down a little.

 

Units that make a good choice to keep in reserves are: Bikes, Land Raiders with a hard hitting CC unit, Stormravens with the same setup, etc.

 

You'll note that not a one of these units is under 300 points when reasonably kitted out - and I have to refer you up to the statement that you need to make sure that the army on the table can hold it's own for at least those three turns.

 

And why expensive units? It's a variation of the four points above.

 

1.1) They're the units in your army with one of the highest Killhammer ratings, so they should be one of your opponent's primary targets.

2.1) When they arrive where you want them, they are able to kill more than a lesser unit and able to make more of a difference when they arrive.

3.1) Your opponent now has to stop them from doing it again by altering his strategy to deal with them because they can't be ignored.

4.1) They are the units that are most degraded by casualties and damage, so hitting at full strength and keeping that strength is more important than it is to lesser units.

 

But as a caveat, whatever the unit is, it needs to be mobile. If it's not, you only get one turn of game altering impact most of the time and you lose the benefit of #3. It does you little good to get a unit someplace and leave it there.

 

As points values get lowered (I generally play 2k points), you can probably get away with lesser units. Maybe a Vindicator or Baal Predator, or a Rhino full of Grey Hunters is the game changing unit you've got available.

 

There is another reason to reserve when you aren't forced to by a scenario - and that's when there's no good place to deploy until the table has cleared out a bit. I'll tend to reserve more often in spearhead because I don't like the tight spaces of a table quarter with a 12" semicircle cut out of it and would rather leverage the whole long table edge.

[Ookami_81]

Maybe it also depends on the army facing you.

One problem in the very conception of reserves is that you deprive your army of very costy units, so if your opponent deploys everything, how can you not be totally overwhelmed ?

Basically, what I deploy on the table for 2K is a bike command squad with captain, one bike squad for heavy AT popping, one other capable of wiping out troops en masse, two vindicator a whirlwind and two tact squads with rhino... Oh, and Typhoons, of course. ^_^

 

Everything has a precise role: Typhoons blast away transports and the like, tact squads hold ground and defend hidden in their rhino, Whirlie blast troops behind cover, Vindicator absorb fire and destroy heavy infantry or vehicles, my AT bike squad go to pop AV 14/13, the other finish weakened enemies, and my biker command squad can do almost everything, from heavy AT killing to horse containment.

 

I guess I could hold in reserve my troop sweeping bike unit or even my biker command squad, cause the first is operationnal and the second is just a super jack of all the trades unit, because everything it does other units can do it.

 

But they tend to dilute the firepower other units are taking, and I usually face very agressive opponents deploying just everything and often adopt a tactic of getting to you fast, shoot with everything then assault with everything and wipe you out of the table. Well, my main ork opponent plays that way, whatever the mission. For him orks go for the kill and a good opponent is a tabled out one !

 

Maybe with a less aggressive opponent with a lot of artillery like guards would make me love reserving, but in this config I prefer to put everything on the table. What do you think of that: the importance of the opponent army list and playsatyle while choosing reserves ?

[Warp Angel]

Maybe it also depends on the army facing you.

One problem in the very conception of reserves is that you deprive your army of very costy units, so if your opponent deploys everything, how can you not be totally overwhelmed ?

Basically, what I deploy on the table for 2K is a bike command squad with captain, one bike squad for heavy AT popping, one other capable of wiping out troops en masse, two vindicator a whirlwind and two tact squads with rhino... Oh, and Typhoons, of course. ;)

 

Everything has a precise role: Typhoons blast away transports and the like, tact squads hold ground and defend hidden in their rhino, Whirlie blast troops behind cover, Vindicator absorb fire and destroy heavy infantry or vehicles, my AT bike squad go to pop AV 14/13, the other finish weakened enemies, and my biker command squad can do almost everything, from heavy AT killing to horse containment.

 

I guess I could hold in reserve my troop sweeping bike unit or even my biker command squad, cause the first is operationnal and the second is just a super jack of all the trades unit, because everything it does other units can do it.

 

But they tend to dilute the firepower other units are taking, and I usually face very agressive opponents deploying just everything and often adopt a tactic of getting to you fast, shoot with everything then assault with everything and wipe you out of the table. Well, my main ork opponent plays that way, whatever the mission. For him orks go for the kill and a good opponent is a tabled out one !

 

Maybe with a less aggressive opponent with a lot of artillery like guards would make me love reserving, but in this config I prefer to put everything on the table. What do you think of that: the importance of the opponent army list and playsatyle while choosing reserves ?

 

Using reserves is a tricky choice. Earlier in this thread (more than a year ago... geeze), I said that if you're going to make the choice to use reserves, you need to make sure that the army you have on the table to start the game is capable of holding its own for at least three turns. If your army can't do that (because of low body count or your opponent's ability to overwhelm you without the reserves) then don't do it.

 

If you're not facing the right opponent, don't use reserves. :( I know... it's a judgment call, but if was obvious, nobody would ever make a mistake by choosing wrong.

[Ookami_81]

Thanks Warp Angel ! It answers the question perfectly (we're always wrong no to re-read everything before posting). Next time my chapter has to repell some Tau invaders I'll try to reserve a bike squad, then.

[ShinyRhino]

I've used some of Fritz's (Way of Saim-Hann) tactics to reliably win games. Mostly the fifth-turn gamble, and mass redeployments via turbo boosting. It works, but you do a lot of trading to make it do so.

When I first started using lots of bikes, the fifth-turn turbo bos onto objectives took folks by surprise, and it won me games. It still wins me games against newer, or less-careful opponents. However, the majority of opponents are now wise to it, and so it's a lot tougher to pull off.

Eldar jetbikes are easier to play cat and mouse with, because they can jump over terrain and such. Our bikers cannot do that, so you have to be very careful with them. One false move, and you're stuck in close combat for the rest of the game, or shot to pieces by templates, pie plates, or plasma.

 

Our bikes do have the luxury of a long firing range. 24" twin-linked bolters are very nice indeed. This is why I really like plasmaguns in some of my squads, for the matching range band. Two plasmaguns and a multimelta in a single squad in reserve is pretty scray to many opponents, since they know you can take down at least three infantry models reliably, plus however many bolter shots get through. Plasma is more than capable of peeling open Rhinos and Chimeras, so by keeping a squad like this in reserve, you have a nice insurance policy against backfield invaders. Relentless also allows you to follow up that shooting with a charge against either the tank, or the passengers.

[Ookami_81]

Yeah, I'm thinking of opening a thread "bikes are the single most marvelous thing we've got in our inventory", but I fear the advertisement would create a "bike frenzy" in our ranks (much like the nob bikers in the green tide) and force the opponents to PA armies to build more specially tailored list against bikes.

 

As such, what would you bring on the field of battle against a PA army with a mix of Rhinos, rhino based tanks, typhoons and bikes ?

I would think of a radical list maxing out plasma guns, autocannons and meltas, something like:

Elite: 3 rifleman dreads

HS: 3 Vindicators

FA: as many typhoons as possible (I find them great with bikes, and also against bikes)

Troops: tacticals in rhino with plasmagun and plasmacannons, and PFists.

[ShinyRhino]

Yeah, I'm thinking of opening a thread "bikes are the single most marvelous thing we've got in our inventory", but I fear the advertisement would create a "bike frenzy" in our ranks (much like the nob bikers in the green tide) and force the opponents to PA armies to build more specially tailored list against bikes.

 

As such, what would you bring on the field of battle against a PA army with a mix of Rhinos, rhino based tanks, typhoons and bikes ?

I would think of a radical list maxing out plasma guns, autocannons and meltas, something like:

Elite: 3 rifleman dreads

HS: 3 Vindicators

FA: as many typhoons as possible (I find them great with bikes, and also against bikes)

Troops: tacticals in rhino with plasmagun and plasmacannons, and PFists.

 

Yeah, I have people jumping on my Biker Bandwagon locally now, too. *shakes fist*

 

That list of anti-bike units is about right, though itmight be worthwhile to take some pod-borne Sternguard. Hellfire rounds are annoying because they ignore your T5, and force a TON of armor saves.

I'd skip the plasmacannons on the tactical squads, and take missile launchers instead. S8 will instakill the bikes, and AP3 forces the use of a cover save instead of armor, plus, they're free.

Powerfists on the sergeants might be nice, but are hard to deliver against a flighty bike force. I'd take a combiplasma or plasma pistol instead.

[Warp Angel]

Yeah, I'm thinking of opening a thread "bikes are the single most marvelous thing we've got in our inventory", but I fear the advertisement would create a "bike frenzy" in our ranks (much like the nob bikers in the green tide) and force the opponents to PA armies to build more specially tailored list against bikes.

 

As such, what would you bring on the field of battle against a PA army with a mix of Rhinos, rhino based tanks, typhoons and bikes ?

I would think of a radical list maxing out plasma guns, autocannons and meltas, something like:

Elite: 3 rifleman dreads

HS: 3 Vindicators

FA: as many typhoons as possible (I find them great with bikes, and also against bikes)

Troops: tacticals in rhino with plasmagun and plasmacannons, and PFists.

 

Yeah, I have people jumping on my Biker Bandwagon locally now, too. *shakes fist*

 

That list of anti-bike units is about right, though itmight be worthwhile to take some pod-borne Sternguard. Hellfire rounds are annoying because they ignore your T5, and force a TON of armor saves.

I'd skip the plasmacannons on the tactical squads, and take missile launchers instead. S8 will instakill the bikes, and AP3 forces the use of a cover save instead of armor, plus, they're free.

Powerfists on the sergeants might be nice, but are hard to deliver against a flighty bike force. I'd take a combiplasma or plasma pistol instead.

 

Thunderfire Cannon. S4 - might not wound, but if you move 1 in 6 units in a bike squad dies, prevents turbo boost, and is still a threat to typhoons and light tanks if you use the S6.

[Ookami_81]

Yeah, I'm thinking of opening a thread "bikes are the single most marvelous thing we've got in our inventory", but I fear the advertisement would create a "bike frenzy" in our ranks (much like the nob bikers in the green tide) and force the opponents to PA armies to build more specially tailored list against bikes.

 

As such, what would you bring on the field of battle against a PA army with a mix of Rhinos, rhino based tanks, typhoons and bikes ?

I would think of a radical list maxing out plasma guns, autocannons and meltas, something like:

Elite: 3 rifleman dreads

HS: 3 Vindicators

FA: as many typhoons as possible (I find them great with bikes, and also against bikes)

Troops: tacticals in rhino with plasmagun and plasmacannons, and PFists.

 

Yeah, I have people jumping on my Biker Bandwagon locally now, too. *shakes fist*

 

That list of anti-bike units is about right, though itmight be worthwhile to take some pod-borne Sternguard. Hellfire rounds are annoying because they ignore your T5, and force a TON of armor saves.

I'd skip the plasmacannons on the tactical squads, and take missile launchers instead. S8 will instakill the bikes, and AP3 forces the use of a cover save instead of armor, plus, they're free.

Powerfists on the sergeants might be nice, but are hard to deliver against a flighty bike force. I'd take a combiplasma or plasma pistol instead.

 

Thunderfire Cannon. S4 - might not wound, but if you move 1 in 6 units in a bike squad dies, prevents turbo boost, and is still a threat to typhoons and light tanks if you use the S6.

 

I think a plasma command squad could be of use, and that plasma pistols or combi are overpriced, so it could give:

 

HQ: captain, relic blade, hellfire rounds

HQ: command squad with max plasma guns, razorback

Elite: sternguard, (hellfire rounds), razorback

Elite: 2 rifleman dreads

HS: 2 Vindicators, 1 TFC

FA: as many typhoons as possible

Troops: tacticals in rhino with plasmagun and ML.

[ShinyRhino]

The plasma command squad is indeed nice. I have run one of late, and they murder light armor and MEQ troopers.

[Koremu]

Yeah, I'm thinking of opening a thread "bikes are the single most marvelous thing we've got in our inventory"

A more accurate statement would be "Bikes are one of the few reasons to use Codex Space Marines over Codex Blood Angels".

[Ookami_81]

Yeah, I'm thinking of opening a thread "bikes are the single most marvelous thing we've got in our inventory"

A more accurate statement would be "Bikes are one of the few reasons to use Codex Space Marines over Codex Blood Angels".

 

Precisely the very reason why I didn't took BA as my main army ! :sweat: